Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

emperior · Post by **emperior** » Fri May 08, 2015 1:48 pm

The list makes more sense now, except for the fact Gohan still looks too OP at beginning of GT and if he was that much stronger than Metal Rildo then explain me why he had a hard time against him.
Also he has lost his ultimate powers has he can go super saiyan and Old Kai explained to him that for going Mystic he had to go SSJ.
I also find your GT levels from Baby Saga onwards to damn high. And Goku SSJ4 is told to be as strong as Super Vegeth. If Super Vegeth is just 6'000 and Goku as a SSJ4 by Evil Dragons Arc is 1'350''000 then its messed up. Also find it hard to believe Pan is stronger than SSJGOD Goku by the end of GT.

SSJ2FutureGohan · Post by **SSJ2FutureGohan** » Fri May 08, 2015 2:32 pm

emperior wrote:The list makes more sense now, except for the fact Gohan still looks too OP at beginning of GT and if he was that much stronger than Metal Rildo then explain me why he had a hard time against him.

Gohan only fought Rild in base.

Also he has lost his ultimate powers has he can go super saiyan and Old Kai explained to him that for going Mystic he had to go SSJ.

That's never stated. He still has his Ultimate-exclusive traits in GT.

I also find your GT levels from Baby Saga onwards to damn high.

It's a bloated series.

And Goku SSJ4 is told to be as strong as Super Vegeth. If Super Vegeth is just 6'000 and Goku as a SSJ4 by Evil Dragons Arc is 1'350''000 then its messed up.

It's invalidated by the show. Super Baby 1 is above Super Vegetto confirmed by SBV1 and backed by Goku.

Also find it hard to believe Pan is stronger than SSJGOD Goku by the end of GT.

There's nothing going against it.

Saiga · Post by **Saiga** » Fri May 08, 2015 10:55 pm

One, shouldn't Freeza's Golden form be x50 off his "70%?" I may be wrong, but it looks like the intent there was to make it like SS... and his base form is technically his "70% form".

As already mentioned, Freeza goes from being weaker to Goku before they transform to stronger than him, so putting it on his base would require a completely different (and really random) multiplier. Plus, Golden Freeza has pretty much the same drawback as his 100% form, and the 50x multiplier on 100% makes things fit pretty well I think.

Τhe manga adaptation shows that SbG Goku is around the same level as SSG Goku, like we are told/shown in BoG.

How? The image of Super Saiyan God Goku behind Goku? I don't think that makes them around the same level. If I recall, Toyotaro used a Super Saiyan 3 behind Super Saiyan 1/2 Beat to foreshadow the transformation, it doesn't mean Beat was actually that strong.

So I think that's just a symbolic scene to foreshadow that Goku would use the God power again, because SSGSS couldn't be shown.

Shouldn't Vegeta be weaker than Goku? He nervously declined fighting Freeza before Goku beat him. I think that would mark Goku as marginally superior, at least. Oh, and apparently Goku + Vegeta together can fight evenly with Beerus, so they should both be stronger. Though, Beerus can still easily defeat them individually, since a team-up of Goku and Vegeta was said to be enough to draw with Beerus and easily defeat Golden Freeza (who's on par with them individually; slightly stronger, but lacking in stamina).

I don't think being nervous against Freeza makes him weaker, because Freeza was still stronger than Goku as well. Without knowing about the drawback, that'd be a good reason to decline fighting. For now I'm just leaving them as roughly the same.

Didn't know they could fight evenly with Beerus. Ehh... is there any range where they'd be able to team up against Beerus without base Goku being too strong for Oob at the end? I feel he's already pushing it.

DBZGTKOSDH · Post by **DBZGTKOSDH** » Sat May 09, 2015 5:19 am

Saiga wrote:How? The image of Super Saiyan God Goku behind Goku? I don't think that makes them around the same level. If I recall, Toyotaro used a Super Saiyan 3 behind Super Saiyan 1/2 Beat to foreshadow the transformation, it doesn't mean Beat was actually that strong.

So I think that's just a symbolic scene to foreshadow that Goku would use the God power again, because SSGSS couldn't be shown.

It's not the same thing. Beat had his SS3 image behind him because Beat almost transformed into a SS3, since he was powering-up as much as he could & was using all of his power to free himself. But in this case, the image of SSG Goku behind Goku is there to tell us that this Goku isn't normal base Goku, but base Goku with the power of SSG.

Besides, why would Toyotaro foreshadow something that doesn't even appear in his manga? SSG Goku's image doesn't appear in the actual movie, nor is it mentioned in Toriyama's script.

Saiga · Post by **Saiga** » Sat May 09, 2015 5:36 am

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Saiga wrote:How? The image of Super Saiyan God Goku behind Goku? I don't think that makes them around the same level. If I recall, Toyotaro used a Super Saiyan 3 behind Super Saiyan 1/2 Beat to foreshadow the transformation, it doesn't mean Beat was actually that strong.

So I think that's just a symbolic scene to foreshadow that Goku would use the God power again, because SSGSS couldn't be shown.
It's not the same thing. Beat had his SS3 image behind him because Beat almost transformed into a SS3, since he was powering-up as much as he could & was using all of his power to free himself. But in this case, the image of SSG Goku behind Goku is there to tell us that this Goku isn't normal base Goku, but base Goku with the power of SSG.

Besides, why would Toyotaro foreshadow something that doesn't even appear in his manga? SSG Goku's image doesn't appear in the actual movie, nor is it mentioned in Toriyama's script.

Because the manga was made entirely to set up the movie. It sets up Freeza's new form despite it not appearing.

I don't see how the image meaning Goku = SSG is the only interpretation to take... or even the most likely one. Given that base Goku really doesn't appear to be on par with Beerus, but SSGSS Goku is, I think there's a big gap.

I also think the best interpretation is to go by what Toyotaro's already done. Foreshadowing a new transformation. Giving them completely different explanations for such similar usage of imagery doesn't seem right to me at all.

Also, pointing out that it doesn't appear in the movie or script just makes me feel it's better to take it as a case of foreshadowing than something to base power off of. Because that means the movie and script lacked anything to connect Goku's base form with Super Saiyan God in power, and why leave it up to Toyotaro to add that?

Polyphase Avatron · Post by **Polyphase Avatron** » Sat May 09, 2015 5:50 am

Saiga wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Saiga wrote:How? The image of Super Saiyan God Goku behind Goku? I don't think that makes them around the same level. If I recall, Toyotaro used a Super Saiyan 3 behind Super Saiyan 1/2 Beat to foreshadow the transformation, it doesn't mean Beat was actually that strong.

So I think that's just a symbolic scene to foreshadow that Goku would use the God power again, because SSGSS couldn't be shown.
It's not the same thing. Beat had his SS3 image behind him because Beat almost transformed into a SS3, since he was powering-up as much as he could & was using all of his power to free himself. But in this case, the image of SSG Goku behind Goku is there to tell us that this Goku isn't normal base Goku, but base Goku with the power of SSG.

Besides, why would Toyotaro foreshadow something that doesn't even appear in his manga? SSG Goku's image doesn't appear in the actual movie, nor is it mentioned in Toriyama's script.
Because the manga was made entirely to set up the movie. It sets up Freeza's new form despite it not appearing.

I don't see how the image meaning Goku = SSG is the only interpretation to take... or even the most likely one. Given that base Goku really doesn't appear to be on par with Beerus, but SSGSS Goku is, I think there's a big gap.

I also think the best interpretation is to go by what Toyotaro's already done. Foreshadowing a new transformation. Giving them completely different explanations for such similar usage of imagery doesn't seem right to me at all.

Also, pointing out that it doesn't appear in the movie or script just makes me feel it's better to take it as a case of foreshadowing than something to base power off of. Because that means the movie and script lacked anything to connect Goku's base form with Super Saiyan God in power, and why leave it up to Toyotaro to add that?

SSGSS is not on par with Beerus. Golden Freeza was temporarily overpowering SSGSS Goku but but scared shitless of Beerus and Beerus wasn't worried about him at all. Whis said that only by Goku and Vegeta working together would they have a chance to beat Beerus (probably only by using fusion).

emperior · Post by **emperior** » Sat May 09, 2015 11:18 am

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:
emperior wrote:The list makes more sense now, except for the fact Gohan still looks too OP at beginning of GT and if he was that much stronger than Metal Rildo then explain me why he had a hard time against him.
Gohan only fought Rild in base.
Also he has lost his ultimate powers has he can go super saiyan and Old Kai explained to him that for going Mystic he had to go SSJ.
That's never stated. He still has his Ultimate-exclusive traits in GT.
I also find your GT levels from Baby Saga onwards to damn high.
It's a bloated series.
And Goku SSJ4 is told to be as strong as Super Vegeth. If Super Vegeth is just 6'000 and Goku as a SSJ4 by Evil Dragons Arc is 1'350''000 then its messed up.
It's invalidated by the show. Super Baby 1 is above Super Vegetto confirmed by SBV1 and backed by Goku.
Also find it hard to believe Pan is stronger than SSJGOD Goku by the end of GT.
There's nothing going against it.

- Still, if he was that stronger than Rildo then he could have turn SSJ and stomp him even when he was immobilized.
- He has lost his Mystic form or he wouldn't be able to turn SSJ. We can see this as one of the many inconsistencies by the producers of the show though.
- Still no way SS4 Goku is so absurdly stronger than Super Vegeth. He couldn't even lift a building.
- So you are claiming Pan could solo ALL of DBZ in her base form while 10 years old? This is stupid. All of GT is stupid though, feels like wasting our times trying to guess GT power levels where all of GT is messed up.

SSJ2FutureGohan · Post by **SSJ2FutureGohan** » Sat May 09, 2015 11:31 am

- Still, if he was that stronger than Rildo then he could have turn SSJ and stomp him even when he was immobilized.

The fight didn't last very long before Majuub stepped in and one-shotted Rild before Gohan had the chance.

- He has lost his Mystic form or he wouldn't be able to turn SSJ. We can see this as one of the many inconsistencies by the producers of the show though.

Is that ever stated? Or just conjecture?

- Still no way SS4 Goku is so absurdly stronger than Super Vegeth. He couldn't even lift a building.

Yes there is a way he's much stronger than Super Vegetto. Not being able to lift a building is just an inconsistency, but it's not like Z lacks those.

- So you are claiming Pan could solo ALL of DBZ in her base form while 10 years old? This is stupid.

What's stupid is letting your personal bias cloud your judgement on a character and basing it off the fact that she's 10 or a girl. Pan has feats to place her on par with Base Goku in the Evil Dragons arc, and where I place him is up to me, if it falls at a level where he can solo all of Z in his base form, then so can Pan.

All of GT is stupid though, feels like wasting our times trying to guess GT power levels where all of GT is messed up.

Typical excuse made by people who haven't even seen the full show and go with what everybody else says. Yes, Toei isn't known for their consistency, but god forbid someone actually sit down and analyze the material and piece things together instead of the typical Derp! GT logic!

emperior · Post by **emperior** » Sat May 09, 2015 11:38 am

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:
- Still, if he was that stronger than Rildo then he could have turn SSJ and stomp him even when he was immobilized.
The fight didn't last very long before Majuub stepped in and one-shotted Rild before Gohan had the chance.
- He has lost his Mystic form or he wouldn't be able to turn SSJ. We can see this as one of the many inconsistencies by the producers of the show though.
Is that ever stated? Or just conjecture?
- Still no way SS4 Goku is so absurdly stronger than Super Vegeth. He couldn't even lift a building.
Yes there is a way he's much stronger than Super Vegetto. Not being able to lift a building is just an inconsistency, but it's not like Z lacks those.
- So you are claiming Pan could solo ALL of DBZ in her base form while 10 years old? This is stupid.
What's stupid is letting your personal bias cloud your judgement on a character and basing it off the fact that she's 10 or a girl. Pan has feats to place her on par with Base Goku in the Evil Dragons arc, and where I place him is up to me, if it falls at a level where he can solo all of Z in his base form, then so can Pan.
All of GT is stupid though, feels like wasting our times trying to guess GT power levels where all of GT is messed up.
Typical excuse made by people who haven't even seen the full show and go with what everybody else says. Yes, Toei isn't known for their consistency, but god forbid someone actually sit down and analyze the material and piece things together instead of the typical Derp! GT logic!

I've seen enough of GT. I don't remember piece by piece obviously, last time I saw it was years ago and I don't like it enough to watch again.
If you want to make power levels don't be biased. I could say when Goku first turned SSJ he was so enraged that he was a strong as a SSJGod, and Frieza's 100% was just an incomplete version of his golden form with the drawback of consuming his Ki during time.
Doesn't mean this is accurate though.

SSJ2FutureGohan · Post by **SSJ2FutureGohan** » Sat May 09, 2015 11:41 am

I'm not being biased. There's nothing contradicting the list I made, it's 'accuracy' is purely subjective.

DBZAOTA482 · Post by **DBZAOTA482** » Sat May 09, 2015 1:09 pm

Here's my numbers for the 22nd Budokai, Piccolo Daimao Saga, and 23rd Budokai..

Goku (22nd Budokai) : 125 (Match use)
150 (All-out)

Krillin (22nd Budokai): 124

Yamcha (22nd Budokai): 120 ; Krillin says he's about as good as he is

Jackie Chun: 145

Chiaotzu (22nd Budokai): 95

King Chappa (22nd Budokai): 90

Tsuru-sennin: 120

Tenshinhan (22nd Budokai): 120 (@ Yamcha)
150 ; Him and Goku were practically even

Goku (Holy Divine Water): 230

Tamborine: 145 ; Goku brutalized him

Yajirobe: 140

Piccolo Daimao (old): 155 (50% Power)
210

Piccolo Daimao (young): 230

Goku (weighted): 200 - 230 (Suppressed) ;estimate
250 (Shockwave Fist)
260 (Less Suppressed)
330

Goku (unweighted): 324 (Suppressed)
411

Krillin (23rd Budokai): 203

Yamcha (23rd Budokai): 195 ; I think Yamcha was more focused on his relationship with Bulma and baseball career than training over the five year timeskip so he got weaker

Tenshinhan (23rd Budokai): 250

Chiaotzu (23rd Budokai): 120

Chi-Chi: 155 or 160 ; Was powerful enough to keep the suppressed weighted Goku somewhat on his toes, gain praise from Roshi, and respect from the crew

Cyborg Tao: 150 ; Did considerably worse against Ten than Chi-Chi did against Goku
210 (Super Dodompa)

Piccolo (weighted): 200 - 230 (suppressed) ; estimate
320

Piccolo (unweighted): 397

Shen (Kami): 260

King Chappa (23rd Budokai): 112 ; He trained out of wounded pride so I don't see him getting too much stronger

SSJ2FutureGohan · Post by **SSJ2FutureGohan** » Sat May 09, 2015 1:18 pm

So I finally caved in and made a list for BoG/FnF, any errors or things you would change?

Spoiler:

DBZAOTA482 · Post by **DBZAOTA482** » Sat May 09, 2015 1:21 pm

THOSE NUMBERS ARE RIDICULOUSLY HIGH!!

SSJ2FutureGohan · Post by **SSJ2FutureGohan** » Sat May 09, 2015 1:28 pm

Yeah, I have Freeza getting 1,000,000,000,000,000x stronger with 4 months of training

Post by **TheDevilsCorpse** » Sat May 09, 2015 3:21 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Yeah, I have Freeza getting 1,000,000,000,000,000x stronger with 4 months of training

No you don't? Not unless his original BP was in the single digits anyway.

SSJ2FutureGohan · Post by **SSJ2FutureGohan** » Sat May 09, 2015 3:24 pm

Isn't Freeza at 120,000,000 in the Daizenshuu?

120,000,000 x 1,000,000,000,000,000 = 120,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Post by **TheDevilsCorpse** » Sat May 09, 2015 3:33 pm

Nevermind. I wasn't actually looking at the math with my own eyes and was just trusting the calculator...which was cutting off numbers because it doesn't go that high. xD

emperior · Post by **emperior** » Sat May 09, 2015 4:06 pm

Why not going the AT road when comparing Whis, Bills and SSG Goku? Using 15, 10, 7 and adding all the zeros.

johnboy1 · Post by **johnboy1** » Sun May 10, 2015 10:44 pm

Did we ever find out if that whole "Freeza's battle power rose to 1.37 million!" rumor was accurate? If not, was any number given at all?

xmysticgohanx · Post by **xmysticgohanx** » Sun May 10, 2015 11:30 pm

emperior wrote:Why not going the AT road when comparing Whis, Bills and SSG Goku? Using 15, 10, 7 and adding all the zeros.

Raspberry Goku was a 6 not a 7

Kanzenshuu

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