Unpopular DB opinions

[ABED]

Pretty much anyone else but Gohan is a good choice to kill Cell. Goku would be cleaning up the last of his RRA mess, Trunks lives to kill Androids and fuck, even Piccolo as Kami has good reason to hate him since he's responsible for horribly murdering the people of his adopted home. Gohan has fuck all with a side of jack shit with Cell. Seriously, Freeza does a LOT worse to Gohan and you don't see anyone saying Freeza is actually Gohan's arch nemesis because of it.

Goku's RRA mess?

[ekrolo2]

Pretty much anyone else but Gohan is a good choice to kill Cell. Goku would be cleaning up the last of his RRA mess, Trunks lives to kill Androids and fuck, even Piccolo as Kami has good reason to hate him since he's responsible for horribly murdering the people of his adopted home. Gohan has fuck all with a side of jack shit with Cell. Seriously, Freeza does a LOT worse to Gohan and you don't see anyone saying Freeza is actually Gohan's arch nemesis because of it.

Goku's RRA mess?

Well, Goku is the guy who brought down the RRA which kicked off Gero's fixation with him and caused all of the various Androids to get made.

[WittyUsername]

Pretty much anyone else but Gohan is a good choice to kill Cell. Goku would be cleaning up the last of his RRA mess, Trunks lives to kill Androids and fuck, even Piccolo as Kami has good reason to hate him since he's responsible for horribly murdering the people of his adopted home. Gohan has fuck all with a side of jack shit with Cell. Seriously, Freeza does a LOT worse to Gohan and you don't see anyone saying Freeza is actually Gohan's arch nemesis because of it.

Goku's RRA mess?

Well, Goku is the guy who brought down the RRA which kicked off Gero's fixation with him and caused all of the various Androids to get made.

The RRA were trying to take over the world though. Besides, Goku didn't even know that Dr. Gero existed (and neither did Toriyama for that matter).

[ABED]

Yeah, I wouldn't put all that on Goku's head. He's not morally responsible for Dr. Gero's desire for revenge. Goku took down an evil organization when no one else could.

[ekrolo2]

The RRA were trying to take over the world though. Besides, Goku didn't even know that Dr. Gero existed.

Yeah and Tony Stark didn't know Ultron would go crazy and try to destroy the world nor did Superman know a nut job in a Batsuit was gonna try and kill him over Metropolis but actions have unintended consequences. Goku might not have known at the time he fought them that this would come back to bite him in the ass almost 20 years down the road but he does know what his stunt has birthed: the Androids.

[ABED]

The RRA were trying to take over the world though. Besides, Goku didn't even know that Dr. Gero existed.

Yeah and Tony Stark didn't know Ultron would go crazy and try to destroy the world nor did Superman know a nut job in a Batsuit was gonna try and kill him over Metropolis but actions have unintended consequences. Goku might not have known at the time he fought them that this would come back to bite him in the ass almost 20 years down the road but he does know what his stunt has birthed: the Androids.

First, Tony created Ultron in a few days using a mystical artifact he had zero understanding of and Superman can't be held responsible for Batman wanting to murder him for inane reasons. So which should Goku have done, let the RRA continue their reign of terror and possibly let them rule the world or destroy them with the remote possibility that one of the hundreds or thousands of operatives working for them would swear vengeance?

[ekrolo2]

The RRA were trying to take over the world though. Besides, Goku didn't even know that Dr. Gero existed.

Yeah and Tony Stark didn't know Ultron would go crazy and try to destroy the world nor did Superman know a nut job in a Batsuit was gonna try and kill him over Metropolis but actions have unintended consequences. Goku might not have known at the time he fought them that this would come back to bite him in the ass almost 20 years down the road but he does know what his stunt has birthed: the Androids.

First, Tony created Ultron in a few days using a mystical artifact he had zero understanding of and Superman can't be held responsible for Batman wanting to murder him for inane reasons. So which should Goku have done, let the RRA continue their reign of terror and possibly let them rule the world or destroy them with the remote possibility that one of the hundreds or thousands of operatives working for them would swear vengeance?

My point is that all three characters did things they thought were right at the time and they all came back to bite them and other people in the ass. I'm not here to condemn Goku's decision to stop the RRA but the fact of the matter is, his good contribution to Earth created more dangerous threats down the line that've caused him and everyone around him a lot of problems. Yes, the RRA were a militant faction hell bent on world domination but they're not some weird science experiment who can pretty much annihilate the entire seventh universe outside of Majin Boo, Whis and Beerus and destroy planets with the same ease we all fart.

[ABED]

Except that Goku did the right thing, even in hindsight he did the right thing. Tony was reckless and Bruce was out of his mind. Goku's decision didn't hurt anyone. He brought down the RRA. So it's either let them continue their mission or destroy them. Goku chose the correct course. The real bad decision was letting Dr. Gero finish the cyborgs even though he was told of their arrival. That was the problem, not taking down an immoral organization.

[DBZAOTA482]

Goku still hated the Saiyans... namely Vegeta and he knows jackshit about the Namekians. It was not personal till Freeza went after his loved ones.

Cell didn't actively mentally and physically torture Goku or did he kill the embodiment of peace and benevolence right in front of him like he was nothing.

That doesn't really matter when Goku gives this whole speech about avenging them all. Freeza was going after his loved ones for the entirety of the arc. It was personal from the start since Freeza was getting in the way of his goal of resurrecting his friends.

Cell actively mentally and physically tortured his son in front of him. #16 wasn't the embodiment of peace, his mission was to kill Goku, Gohan's father. Gohan doesn't give much of a crap about him.

It does matter and if you put it that way then things were personal between Gohan and Cell from the start as well since he planned to kill everyone on Earth if he won.

Goku's plan was to have Gohan go berserk but it backfired and next he knows he's getting beat up by a mini-Cell. #16 was programmed to kill Goku but his true self loved animals and nature. He was also a pacifist himself.

[kinisking]

Pretty much anyone else but Gohan is a good choice to kill Cell. Goku would be cleaning up the last of his RRA mess, Trunks lives to kill Androids and fuck, even Piccolo as Kami has good reason to hate him since he's responsible for horribly murdering the people of his adopted home. Gohan has fuck all with a side of jack shit with Cell. Seriously, Freeza does a LOT worse to Gohan and you don't see anyone saying Freeza is actually Gohan's arch nemesis because of it.

But he's also responsible for mudering the people of Gohan's actual home. It's not like Gohan fighting beating cell made absolutely no sense. Gohan had spent the last year training to beat him and only him. The last moments before the HTC, Cell almost killed Piccolo. Then Cell tortures every single on of Gohan's friends and kills 16 which Gohan is able to relate to. Pointless bloodshed is something Gohan hates and Cell was the direct cause it. It's made worse by the fact that he's doing it all because of Gohan. It was absolute torture for him because he's the type to blame himself for something like that happening. Cell attacked Gohan mentally in ways that he didn't do to any other character besides Vegeta. He was also the only one capable of beating him.

Prior to the battle, Goku and Trunks would have made more sense from a narrative stand point but Akira Toriyama wanted Gohan to do it. Just like Piccolo or Vegeta killing Freeza would have made more sense. Just like Gotenks or Gohan killing Boo would have made more sense.

[ekrolo2]

Pretty much anyone else but Gohan is a good choice to kill Cell. Goku would be cleaning up the last of his RRA mess, Trunks lives to kill Androids and fuck, even Piccolo as Kami has good reason to hate him since he's responsible for horribly murdering the people of his adopted home. Gohan has fuck all with a side of jack shit with Cell. Seriously, Freeza does a LOT worse to Gohan and you don't see anyone saying Freeza is actually Gohan's arch nemesis because of it.

But he's also responsible for mudering the people of Gohan's actual home. It's not like Gohan fighting beating cell made absolutely no sense. Gohan had spent the last year training to beat him and only him. The last moments before the HTC, Cell almost killed Piccolo. Then Cell tortures every single on of Gohan's friends and kills 16 which Gohan is able to relate to. Pointless bloodshed is something Gohan hates and Cell was the direct cause it. It's made worse by the fact that he's doing it all because of Gohan. It was absolute torture for him because he's the type to blame himself for something like that happening. Cell attacked Gohan mentally in ways that he didn't do to any other character besides Vegeta. He was also the only one capable of beating him.

Prior to the battle, Goku and Trunks would have made more sense from a narrative stand point but Akira Toriyama wanted Gohan to do it. Just like Piccolo or Vegeta killing Freeza would have made more sense. Just like Gotenks or Gohan killing Boo would have made more sense.

I know what Toriyama wanted, I just don't buy it. Gohan might've been training to help out with fighting Cell and the Androids but all anyone counted on was Goku and Vegeta to pull the whole thing off, Gohan didn't ever think he'd have to win it all as the only guy able to until Goku throws him at Cell.

Also, Freeza does a lot worse to him. He murders Krillin and Dende, he tortures the shit out of Piccolo in a far more brutal fashion than what the Cell Jrs do the others, he tries to kill him multiple times and almost does so, he beats the shit out of his dad and almost kills him too,... All of that stuff is a lot worse than Cell beating up a few people and killing a robot who, may I remind folks, told Gohan and Goku he was designed to murder Gohan's dad AND was one of the threats Gohan trained to fight against in the ROSAT.

[kinisking]

Pretty much anyone else but Gohan is a good choice to kill Cell. Goku would be cleaning up the last of his RRA mess, Trunks lives to kill Androids and fuck, even Piccolo as Kami has good reason to hate him since he's responsible for horribly murdering the people of his adopted home. Gohan has fuck all with a side of jack shit with Cell. Seriously, Freeza does a LOT worse to Gohan and you don't see anyone saying Freeza is actually Gohan's arch nemesis because of it.

But he's also responsible for mudering the people of Gohan's actual home. It's not like Gohan fighting beating cell made absolutely no sense. Gohan had spent the last year training to beat him and only him. The last moments before the HTC, Cell almost killed Piccolo. Then Cell tortures every single on of Gohan's friends and kills 16 which Gohan is able to relate to. Pointless bloodshed is something Gohan hates and Cell was the direct cause it. It's made worse by the fact that he's doing it all because of Gohan. It was absolute torture for him because he's the type to blame himself for something like that happening. Cell attacked Gohan mentally in ways that he didn't do to any other character besides Vegeta. He was also the only one capable of beating him.

Prior to the battle, Goku and Trunks would have made more sense from a narrative stand point but Akira Toriyama wanted Gohan to do it. Just like Piccolo or Vegeta killing Freeza would have made more sense. Just like Gotenks or Gohan killing Boo would have made more sense.

I know what Toriyama wanted, I just don't buy it. Gohan might've been training to help out with fighting Cell and the Androids but all anyone counted on was Goku and Vegeta to pull the whole thing off, Gohan didn't ever think he'd have to win it all as the only guy able to until Goku throws him at Cell.

Also, Freeza does a lot worse to him. He murders Krillin and Dende, he tortures the shit out of Piccolo in a far more brutal fashion than what the Cell Jrs do the others, he tries to kill him multiple times and almost does so, he beats the shit out of his dad and almost kills him too,... All of that stuff is a lot worse than Cell beating up a few people and killing a robot who, may I remind folks, told Gohan and Goku he was designed to murder Gohan's dad AND was one of the threats Gohan trained to fight against in the ROSAT.

Well, that's what makes it unique and a memorable moment. Gohan was able to prove everyone wrong, including himself.

Freeza does worse to him but Cell did some pretty nasty shit too. Gohan had more than enough connection to Cell at that point for it to make sense.

[ekrolo2]

Well, that's what makes it unique and a memorable moment. Gohan was able to prove everyone wrong, including himself.

Freeza does worse to him but Cell did some pretty nasty shit too. Gohan had more than enough connection to Cell at that point for it to make sense.

Yeah but you're point is that Gohan training to fight Cell is meant to create a connection between them when it doesn't. Cell was just another dude he'd have to maybe deal with like 17, 18 and 16 and that's a big maybe since even Goku assumed Vegeta would be more than enough to win the whole thing by the time either of them left the room.

Cell does some okay nasty shit but Freeza is far, far worse, the kid lives in abject fear of him perpetually throughout the entire stay on Namek and suffers a lot of bad stuff not just from Freeza himself, but also from his various soldiers. The connection between Cell and Gohan is flimsy at best as far as I'm concerned, especially on Gohan's side of things. Cell getting beaten by a little kid when he's supposedly the apex of various different species power gives Cell more a horse in this race than Gohan up until Goku dies.

[kinisking]

Well, that's what makes it unique and a memorable moment. Gohan was able to prove everyone wrong, including himself.

Freeza does worse to him but Cell did some pretty nasty shit too. Gohan had more than enough connection to Cell at that point for it to make sense.

Yeah but you're point is that Gohan training to fight Cell is meant to create a connection between them when it doesn't. Cell was just another dude he'd have to maybe deal with like 17, 18 and 16 and that's a big maybe since even Goku assumed Vegeta would be more than enough to win the whole thing by the time either of them left the room.

Cell does some okay nasty shit but Freeza is far, far worse, the kid lives in abject fear of him perpetually throughout the entire stay on Namek and suffers a lot of bad stuff not just from Freeza himself, but also from his various soldiers. The connection between Cell and Gohan is flimsy at best as far as I'm concerned, especially on Gohan's side of things. Cell getting beaten by a little kid when he's supposedly the apex of various different species power gives Cell more a horse in this race than Gohan up until Goku dies.

My point is that Gohan's training, Piccolo being almost murdered before that training, the people of HIS (not just adopted) planet dying or going to die, Android 16's speech, his friends being tortured in front of him while he's unable to do something, Cell personally torturing him, and Goku's death all add up to a connection that's more than personal enough. Think about it, if you were in the same situation as Gohan would you be thinking that you had no connection with this guy?

Before the fight, Goku had more of a personal connection. There is absolutely no denying that. But, by the end of the fight Cell had done far worse to Gohan than Cell ever did. What did Cell even do to Goku? Have a fight that they both enjoyed? Yes, Goku's at fault for cell. But this was a passing of the torch moment so Gohan taking care of Goku's problem makes sense.


Since you keep bringing up freeza, is it okay that Goku and Trunks were the one to beat Freeza? To Goku, it was just him having to save the day again. He obviously didn't give half a shit about the saiyans. Freeza was the dude who literally controlled Vegeta's life, and Piccolo had to see the trauma's Freeza caused to his people first hand.

Taking all this into account, I don't see why the Gohan versus Cell thing is singled out like it makes no sense. It does make sense. Could it have made more sense? Yes. But it made more than enough sense to where I can get behind it.

[Abra kadabra]

Gohan has no relationship with cell. Their fight was random

[kinisking]

Gohan has no relationship with cell. Their fight was random

I wouldn't say no relationship with cell. It was definitely small before the fight though. Although it was supposed to be random. That was the intention of the fight. What matters though is that by the end their connection was personal enough to the point where it made sense for Gohan to take him out. Read my earlier comment to see why I think that.

[ekrolo2]

My point is that Gohan's training, Piccolo being almost murdered before that training, the people of HIS (not just adopted) planet dying or going to die, Android 16's speech, his friends being tortured in front of him while he's unable to do something, Cell personally torturing him, and Goku's death all add up to a connection that's more than personal enough. Think about it, if you were in the same situation as Gohan would you be thinking that you had no connection with this guy?

Before the fight, Goku had more of a personal connection. There is absolutely no denying that. But, by the end of the fight Cell had done far worse to Gohan than Cell ever did. What did Cell even do to Goku? Have a fight that they both enjoyed? Yes, Goku's at fault for cell. But this was a passing of the torch moment so Gohan taking care of Goku's problem makes sense.


Since you keep bringing up freeza, is it okay that Goku and Trunks were the one to beat Freeza? To Goku, it was just him having to save the day again. He obviously didn't give half a shit about the saiyans. Freeza was the dude who literally controlled Vegeta's life, and Piccolo had to see the trauma's Freeza caused to his people first hand.

Taking all this into account, I don't see why the Gohan versus Cell thing is singled out like it makes no sense. It does make sense. Could it have made more sense? Yes. But it made more than enough sense to where I can get behind it.

I'd want to beat the shit out of him certainly but I wouldn't have this profound, seething disdain for him until Goku dies which is well after 16s death. Everything after Goku's death is fine but I'll swallow glass shards dipped in cyanide before I ever admit 16s death spurring Gohan's emotional upheaval is earned or justified. That's where my issue with Gohan vs Cell primarily comes from, well that and the moronic fan fucks you and I both want to nuke with the force of a thousand exploding suns.

Goku doesn't really care about Freeza much until Krillin dies and we can buy this as an important loss cause Goku actually knows Krillin and thinks his best friend can't ever come back again. That's a believable way for Goku's disdain for Freeza to come from. Gohan vs Cell doesn't have this, if Cell killed Goku or Piccolo to make him go SS2, everything would be fine and I'd even find Gohan's subsequent curb stomp of Cell pretty gratifying. But some dinky ass robot who the kid doesn't even know being crushed in front of him? Hell the fuck no.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Gohan has no relationship with cell. Their fight was random

Yeah. I liked the idea of Gohan surpassing everyone else and saving the world, it had been building to that for a long time. However, Cell didn't have the proper build-up to be that villain, he had almost no prior relationship with Cell. I would have had him build a relationship with Trunks, then gone berserk once Cell killed him. It still wouldn't be perfect, but a small tweak like that would have made it better. That's only one, btw, I can think of several other tiny adjustments off the top of my head that would have improved the structure of the Cell Arc.

[ekrolo2]

Gohan has no relationship with cell. Their fight was random

Yeah. I liked the idea of Gohan surpassing everyone else and saving the world, it had been building to that for a long time. However, Cell didn't have the proper build-up to be that villain, he had almost no prior relationship with Cell. I would have had him build a relationship with Trunks, then gone berserk once Cell killed him. It still wouldn't be perfect, but a small tweak like that would have made it better. That's only one, btw, I can think of several other tiny adjustments off the top of my head that would have improved the structure of the Cell Arc.

Yeah, its really weird how Trunks supposedly look up to Gohan as this great mentor figure and he does practically nothing with past Gohan at all throughout the entire story.

[DBZAOTA482]

Pretty much anyone else but Gohan is a good choice to kill Cell. Goku would be cleaning up the last of his RRA mess, Trunks lives to kill Androids and fuck, even Piccolo as Kami has good reason to hate him since he's responsible for horribly murdering the people of his adopted home. Gohan has fuck all with a side of jack shit with Cell. Seriously, Freeza does a LOT worse to Gohan and you don't see anyone saying Freeza is actually Gohan's arch nemesis because of it.

But he's also responsible for mudering the people of Gohan's actual home. It's not like Gohan fighting beating cell made absolutely no sense. Gohan had spent the last year training to beat him and only him. The last moments before the HTC, Cell almost killed Piccolo. Then Cell tortures every single on of Gohan's friends and kills 16 which Gohan is able to relate to. Pointless bloodshed is something Gohan hates and Cell was the direct cause it. It's made worse by the fact that he's doing it all because of Gohan. It was absolute torture for him because he's the type to blame himself for something like that happening. Cell attacked Gohan mentally in ways that he didn't do to any other character besides Vegeta. He was also the only one capable of beating him.

Prior to the battle, Goku and Trunks would have made more sense from a narrative stand point but Akira Toriyama wanted Gohan to do it. Just like Piccolo or Vegeta killing Freeza would have made more sense. Just like Gotenks or Gohan killing Boo would have made more sense.

I know what Toriyama wanted, I just don't buy it. Gohan might've been training to help out with fighting Cell and the Androids but all anyone counted on was Goku and Vegeta to pull the whole thing off, Gohan didn't ever think he'd have to win it all as the only guy able to until Goku throws him at Cell.

Also, Freeza does a lot worse to him. He murders Krillin and Dende, he tortures the shit out of Piccolo in a far more brutal fashion than what the Cell Jrs do the others, he tries to kill him multiple times and almost does so, he beats the shit out of his dad and almost kills him too,... All of that stuff is a lot worse than Cell beating up a few people and killing a robot who, may I remind folks, told Gohan and Goku he was designed to murder Gohan's dad AND was one of the threats Gohan trained to fight against in the ROSAT.

There's more ways to torture than physical, homie and Cell did more to Gohan psychologically than Freeza.

Also Cell did more than just beat up people. He killed many people as well nearly killing his master and Tien for no good reason.

#16 'died' trying to save Earth and in the cruelest fashion ever. He wasn't just done robot who died.