Unpopular DB opinions

[Son Edo]

Yep I'm scared now.

[DBZAOTA482]

I cant remember if i posted in this thread.

SSj3 Gotenks > SSj Gogeta.

Mr. Satan > SSJ3 Gotenks. Now STFU!!

Mr. Satan is the strongest character in all of Dragon Ball. The only reason Gohan won against Cell is because Satan's attacks contained latent energy that caused a delayed reaction and he obviously could have wrecked up Kid Trunks but he chose to lose because he wanted to be fair.

[Son Edo]

I cant remember if i posted in this thread.

SSj3 Gotenks > SSj Gogeta.

Mr. Satan > SSJ3 Gotenks. Now STFU!!

Mr. Satan is the strongest character in all of Dragon Ball. The only reason Gohan won against Cell is because Satan's attacks contained latent energy that caused a delayed reaction and he obviously could have wrecked up Kid Trunks but he chose to lose because he wanted to be fair.

Language friend language. I am fully aware Mark Satan possessed unsurpassable strength you dont need to rub it into my face.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Topic derailed, well not really. Still discussing your opinion, which I find unpopular =P Anyway, you say it'd be a stretch, but I don't really see how.

Goku could have honestly thought that he couldn't win when he first made the statement. He knows he was equal to Vegeta at SS2, and Vegeta died against Buu. He also knows SS3 will drain his time in the mortal realm and the exact depths of Buu's power aren't clear since he has yet to fight him. Goku would factor in that Buu could still be much stronger his time may run out before he had a chance to beat him, therefore he can't win. It wasn't until he needed to actually stall for time AND not die again that he decided to gamble on the form. While fighting Buu, he thinks he has a good grasp of the Majin's power and assumes Gotenks would be able to handle the job even if he doesn't finish Buu off himself...

A valid explanation, and hardly a stretch my any means IMO.

No, that's still a stretch. He could've at least tried; what other option did they have? Gokuu's meant to be an optimist. And once again, this is before Mr. Popo suggested that they have the kids use Fusion. He doesn't even know how powerful an untested Fusion between Goten and Trunks will be, yet he does know how powerful his Super Saiyan 3 form is, and actually admitted that he could beat Boo. He could sense Boo's power even before he fought him, and when he actually faced him, he was confident in his ability to stall for Trunks.

[rereboy]

Yeah, I agree that it is a stretch. He could at least have hinted that he didn't do his best against Vegeta but he wasn't confident at all that he could beat Buu (he wouldn't mention SSJ3 and the energy/time consumption at that time, he would just leave it vague), at which point he would mention that Fusion would be a much better choice if he had someone to fuse with, and then Mr. Popo would mention the kids.

[Cipher]

Re: What was Toriyama thinking when he was writing the Boo arc?

I was under the impression (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that Toriyama was under a new editor for the Boo arc and actually working with some of the lowest amount of editorial oversight in the series. So I always just assumed that its sillier/more over-the-top elements were the result of Toriyama 1) yes, actually being tired of the series, but also 2) finally being able to do exactly what he wanted, whenever he wanted.

I always just thought it was Toriyama at his most unrestrained (with a little bit of fatigue making him more prone to throwing caution to the wind). Whatever the combination, I love what came out of it.

[sonikku956]

SSJ2 should of stayed exclusive to Gohan.

To me it just seems and works better that way.

Same here. There shouldn't have been Super Saiyan 3 either; seriously, take that out of the story and there'd be little to no change. For example, in the first SS3 transformation scene, Gokuu could've just gone up to Boo to stall him. He'd tell him that he shouldn't take orders from Bobbodi, who'd protest and then Boo would take Gokuu's advice and kill him. Then Gokuu would tell him to wait for the strong fighter that'll come in a couple of days, then teleport back up to God's Palace to train the kids for Fusion.

Or just give SSJ3 to Goten. Seeing his mom die didn't give him that much of a reaction.

Or, heck, make SSJ3 look like SSJ4, but minus the ridiculousness of the eyeliner, red fur, and even longer hair.

[Bussani]

Oh, for fucks' sake...

For the record, I also had no idea what on Earth you were talking about.

It doesn't seem like much of a stretch to me. It's a minor questionable moment at best. Goku could have gotten healed, instantly said, "Well, I've got this thing I can give a shot!" and zoomed off to fight Buu, but I don't really think it's a plot hole that he didn't. He's allowed to sit and take a moment to consider his next course of action, and he surely would have tried to beat Buu using Super Saiyan 3 if no other options had come to him or been suggested.

Besides that, I'd just like to repeat what I've said before: removing anything that isn't vital to a story doesn't always make the story better. There's such a thing as being too streamlined.

[Saiga]

Wouldn't that be a retcon, rather than a plothole anyway?

[Gaffer Tape]

They're not necessarily mutually exclusive. Goku being a Saiya-jin is a retcon. Goku claiming he was no stronger than Vegeta not long before breaking out SSJ3 is a retcon that creates a plothole.

[Beji]

Same here. There shouldn't have been Super Saiyan 3 either; seriously, take that out of the story and there's little to no changes. For example, in the first SS3 transformation scene, Gokuu could've just gone up to Boo to stall him. He'd tell him that he shouldn't take orders from Bobbodi, who'd protest and then Boo would take Gokuu's advice and kill him. Then Gokuu would tell him to wait for the strong fighter that'll come in a couple of days, then teleport back up to God's Palace to train the kids for Fusion.

I think the SSJ3 is a good addition to the Buu Saga, but not for power or plot related reasons. It's a little fan theory of mine that this transformation was meant to be a little derided. From the way it looks to being the only SSJ transformation in the story that didn't save the day, despite being the strongest.

But it just got too ridiculous. There's no actual need for Super Saiyan 3. Literally the only thing good about it was that it didn't save the day for once, but it didn't do anything worth for the story either. Furthermore, it causes a plothole that's pretty hard to explain away, and no, I'm not going to bother delving into that now.

I guess my unpopular goes a bit into this but I wish that there was no SSJ3 Gotenks at all. I love the character Gotenks but a fusion at ssj3 and he was just too comical with his things I feel like he should have been stuck with ssj and his gag moves. Giving him ssj3(which I like the transformation) should be(no this isn't goku-ism xD) exclusive to Goku OR a saiyan who has been dead and has been training in otherworld. A transformation so powerful that only the dead can use it. An otherwordly power, one that a living body cannot use. The fact that it was used so much more towards the end was kind of annoying.

[Cipher]

I guess my unpopular goes a bit into this but I wish that there was no SSJ3 Gotenks at all. I love the character Gotenks but a fusion at ssj3 and he was just too comical with his things I feel like he should have been stuck with ssj and his gag moves. Giving him ssj3(which I like the transformation) should be(no this isn't goku-ism xD) exclusive to Goku OR a saiyan who has been dead and has been training in otherworld. A transformation so powerful that only the dead can use it. An otherwordly power, one that a living body cannot use. The fact that it was used so much more towards the end was kind of annoying.

Huh. You're entitled to your opinion, but I don't see how it undermines anything.

1) Super Saiyan 3 is still as mystical as ever. A hyper-powerful fusion using it isn't any more down-to-Earth than a dead guy. And it's still so powerful it reduces the time of his fusion.

2) Super Saiyan 3 is still as refreshingly anti-climactic as ever.

3) It's an exciting twist the chapter/episode it happens, and it ups the ante for the fight. Dragon Ball's a pretty unpretentious series. Most of the time, if it excited you for a bit or made you laugh, it's done its job.

[Beji]

Huh. You're entitled to your opinion, but I don't see how it undermines anything.

1) Super Saiyan 3 is still as mystical as ever. A hyper-powerful fusion using it isn't any more down-to-Earth than a dead guy. And it's still so powerful it reduces the time of his fusion.

2) Super Saiyan 3 is still as refreshingly anti-climactic as ever.

3) It's an exciting twist the chapter/episode it happens, and it ups the ante for the fight. Dragon Ball's a pretty unpretentious series. Most of the time, if it excited you for a bit or made you laugh, it's done its job.

1) It isn't the fact that a hyper powerful fusion is using it which is the only reason I didn't throw my book when I read it but Gotenks using it. Gotensk just seemed like a gag character to me and in the Buu saga it was even more-so the mystical transformation has been reduced to the same thing as the SSJ transformation was. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUi5048pyHY&t=1m02s

2) I thought it was cool and didn't expect it. I thought Gohan was the final limit and to see that a dead Goku could transform one higher was to me pretty exciting.

3) I know it ups the ante but I just thought Gohan getting there sooner would have done the same job if not better than Gotenks turning ssj3(these are all just opinions obviously)

[Piccolo Daimao]

Re: What was Toriyama thinking when he was writing the Boo arc?

I was under the impression (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that Toriyama was under a new editor for the Boo arc and actually working with some of the lowest amount of editorial oversight in the series. So I always just assumed that its sillier/more over-the-top elements were the result of Toriyama 1) yes, actually being tired of the series, but also 2) finally being able to do exactly what he wanted, whenever he wanted.

I always just thought it was Toriyama at his most unrestrained (with a little bit of fatigue making him more prone to throwing caution to the wind). Whatever the combination, I love what came out of it.

I agree. I still actually like the Boo arc, for what it's worth, but it feels rougher around the edges.

Oh, for fucks' sake...

For the record, I also had no idea what on Earth you were talking about.

I was just mad, is all. It's cool.

It doesn't seem like much of a stretch to me. It's a minor questionable moment at best. Goku could have gotten healed, instantly said, "Well, I've got this thing I can give a shot!" and zoomed off to fight Buu, but I don't really think it's a plot hole that he didn't. He's allowed to sit and take a moment to consider his next course of action, and he surely would have tried to beat Buu using Super Saiyan 3 if no other options had come to him or been suggested.

Besides that, I'd just like to repeat what I've said before: removing anything that isn't vital to a story doesn't always make the story better. There's such a thing as being too streamlined.

Well, it always stuck out to me, upon reflection. Without a sliver of doubt and sign that he's making a barefaced lie, Gokuu tells Piccolo and co. that he can't possibly beat Boo because he was equal to Vegeta, who was now dead. Then he jumps straight to Fusion, but then says that isn't possible either because Gohan and Vegeta are the only ones he can merge with. And then Mr. Popo brings up Fusion for the kids, Gokuu jumps the idea and...later admits that he had Super Saiyan 3, with which he could beat Boo with all along? What was the point of that fannying around before Popo even mentioned the kids, then?

And yes, there's such a thing as being too streamlined, but there's also such a thing as being too incoherent and...well, whatever the opposite of streamlined is. There were too many times where I found myself thinking, "Well, wait...how come this if he said this and that?" You get the idea.

Or just give SSJ3 to Goten. Seeing his mom die didn't give him that much of a reaction.

I don't think he'd be powerful enough and/or have the necessary training to even reach SS2, let alone SS3, ignoring the fact that a rage trigger for SS2 may only be unique for Gohan (according to the guidebooks, Gokuu and Vegeta achieved it through training) and SS3 was only obtained by two characters under specifically otherworldly conditions and wasn't ever stated to require a rage trigger (that'd be so clichéd, after what we've seen before, anyway). Seeing his mother die definitely gave him much of a reaction, and he was willing to attack Super Boo without Fusion before Piccolo held him back. And then, when he and Trunks went into the RoSaT, he began vigorously training immediately.

[DBZAOTA482]

SSJ2 should of stayed exclusive to Gohan.

To me it just seems and works better that way.

Same here. There shouldn't have been Super Saiyan 3 either; seriously, take that out of the story and there'd be little to no change. For example, in the first SS3 transformation scene, Gokuu could've just gone up to Boo to stall him. He'd tell him that he shouldn't take orders from Bobbodi, who'd protest and then Boo would take Gokuu's advice and kill him. Then Gokuu would tell him to wait for the strong fighter that'll come in a couple of days, then teleport back up to God's Palace to train the kids for Fusion.

Or just give SSJ3 to Goten. Seeing his mom die didn't give him that much of a reaction.

He should have became a Super Saiyan one after that. The real reasoning for it was bullshit and made me hate him for quite some time for achieving it so easily.

[Bussani]

Well, it always stuck out to me, upon reflection. Without a sliver of doubt and sign that he's making a barefaced lie, Gokuu tells Piccolo and co. that he can't possibly beat Boo because he was equal to Vegeta, who was now dead. Then he jumps straight to Fusion, but then says that isn't possible either because Gohan and Vegeta are the only ones he can merge with. And then Mr. Popo brings up Fusion for the kids, Gokuu jumps the idea and...later admits that he had Super Saiyan 3, with which he could beat Boo with all along? What was the point of that fannying around before Popo even mentioned the kids, then?

Oh, I'm not saying it isn't weird--maybe a little poorly handled. I just don't think it's much of a plot hole, and even if it was, I'd blame it on Toriyama's writing more than the existence of Super Saiyan 3 itself.

And yes, there's such a thing as being too streamlined, but there's also such a thing as being too incoherent and...well, whatever the opposite of streamlined is. There were too many times where I found myself thinking, "Well, wait...how come this if he said this and that?" You get the idea.

I was talking more about Super Saiyan 3 itself there, too. I don't like the idea of removing things from stories because they were "pointless" or didn't have some grand reason to be there. Admittedly, some conservation of detail is a good thing, but I think it gets dull, predictable, and overly convenient if everything in the story is there for a designed purpose. To be honest, the fact that Super Saiyan 3 ends up being kind of useless is the thing that makes it interesting to me!

[Saiga]

This is probably nitpicking, but at that point he isn't stronger than Vegeta. SS3 is a multiplier after all.

[Hades]

For all the sins and graces of the old dub, I don't think it's the worst thing that happened to Dragonball as a whole.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Well, it always stuck out to me, upon reflection. Without a sliver of doubt and sign that he's making a barefaced lie, Gokuu tells Piccolo and co. that he can't possibly beat Boo because he was equal to Vegeta, who was now dead. Then he jumps straight to Fusion, but then says that isn't possible either because Gohan and Vegeta are the only ones he can merge with. And then Mr. Popo brings up Fusion for the kids, Gokuu jumps the idea and...later admits that he had Super Saiyan 3, with which he could beat Boo with all along? What was the point of that fannying around before Popo even mentioned the kids, then?

Oh, I'm not saying it isn't weird--maybe a little poorly handled. I just don't think it's much of a plot hole, and even if it was, I'd blame it on Toriyama's writing more than the existence of Super Saiyan 3 itself.

It's still a plothole nonetheless, and I blame it on Toriyama's writing too.

And yes, there's such a thing as being too streamlined, but there's also such a thing as being too incoherent and...well, whatever the opposite of streamlined is. There were too many times where I found myself thinking, "Well, wait...how come this if he said this and that?" You get the idea.

I was talking more about Super Saiyan 3 itself there, too. I don't like the idea of removing things from stories because they were "pointless" or didn't have some grand reason to be there. Admittedly, some conservation of detail is a good thing, but I think it gets dull, predictable, and overly convenient if everything in the story is there for a designed purpose. To be honest, the fact that Super Saiyan 3 ends up being kind of useless is the thing that makes it interesting to me!

OK, forget what I said about removing SS3 from the story because it was pointless. I just think the whole Super Saiyan thing went too far. We have regular Super Saiyan, which is fine enough. Then the Super Saiyan Grades, but they're less transformations and more just pushing more power into regular SS. Then Super Saiyan 2, which seemed like it was originally intended as a Gohan-exclusive form, but then Toriyama went ahead and gave it to Gokuu and Vegeta. OK, stop there. Oh wait, you've gone and given SS to a pair of fucking kids who didn't do shit to get it. And then there's another SS form. Toriyama, you're shitting me.

I just didn't like Super Saiyan 3. It looks stupid and took the Saiyan transformations too far. There's ridiculous, and then there's ridiculous.

[Ketchup_Revenge]

One opinion that I hold that doesn't seem to hold water with anyone else is that you need some type of skill to know how to use Super Saiyan states beyond Super Saiyan, and that transforming further than Super Saiyan is not only a power thing.

Low base PLs are another unpopular opinion that I hold.

OK, forget what I said about removing SS3 from the story because it was pointless. I just think the whole Super Saiyan thing went too far. We have regular Super Saiyan, which is fine enough. Then the Super Saiyan Grades, but they're less transformations and more just pushing more power into regular SS. Then Super Saiyan 2, which seemed like it was originally intended as a Gohan-exclusive form, but then Toriyama went ahead and gave it to Gokuu and Vegeta. OK, stop there. Oh wait, you've gone and given SS to a pair of fucking kids who didn't do shit to get it. And then there's another SS form. Toriyama, you're shitting me.

I just didn't like Super Saiyan 3. It looks stupid and took the Saiyan transformations too far. There's ridiculous, and then there's ridiculous.

I actually found it to be completely pointless, to be entirely honest, so I agree with your original comment. The taxing effects of it are just mimicking the same concept of Third Grade (minus the bulk), which was one of the forms that Goku wanted to avoid using for that problem in the first place.

As for the whole ridiculousness thing, I agree with that as well. In all honesty, from the lackluster way Goku was acting in the fight against Kid Boo, it really became a joke.