Unpopular DB opinions

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Gohan was AVOIDING losing control altogether...

On the contrary. While he was trying to avoid a fight at first, once the Cell Jr's were created and attacked everyone, he remarks that he wants to help, but doesn't know how to control his hidden powers.

[rereboy]

Jesus Christ, Gohan was AVOIDING losing control altogether but Cell kept pushing him despite the boys warnings leaving the boys pleads ignored.

Then, let's imagine that the events had been different and that Gohan had not been avoiding losing control altogether and that Cell had not been pushing Gohan to lose control, but that Cell had still been torturing and was about to to murder Gohan's friends and family.

Psychologically, in that hypothetical situation, compared to the original situation, should Gohan be much less angry at Cell? Should Gohan consider it much less cruel and evil? Should it matter much less for Gohan? Should his reaction be much less expressive?

Would/should you, if you were in Gohan's place...?

You keep stressing that point like it somehow matters much in the light of the torturing and imminent murder of Gohan's friends and family... but it really shouldn't. Compared to the torturing and the imminent murder of his friends and family, the rest simply pales in comparison and I highly doubt any psychological sane person (including you), would find the two situations very different if it was their friends and their family... Neither should Gohan. Or are you going to argue that if you were in Gohan's place that point would somehow make things much different to you...?

Freeza had the children because they didn't give them what he wanted and #16 was beyond a helpless child. He was nothing but a damaged head and at his last moment, embodied peace and benevolence as opposed to some random Namekian children. It's definitely a more senseless killing as well because #16 was trying to help Gohan reach his apex but Cell kills him anyways because he preferred to torture the anger out of Gohan and mocked the android further.

You're really reaching here....

You are claiming that Freeza killing children that had done absolutely nothing against him, after promising to spare them, after obtaining what he wanted and with their survival being irrelevant to him, is "definitely" not as senseless as Cell finishing off the android that had previously tried to kill him...

I don't think I'm the one reaching here...

[ekrolo2]

I want to wipe Super out of existence just for ushering in this new wave of bullshit, baseless headcanons. Seriously, half the stuff I hear people make up to justify stuff like Black's origin being nonsense just blatantly contradict what's in the actual show.

I'm not opposed to headcanons but when they've got fuck all to do with the actual material they're supposed to be about, a get a wee bit annoyed.

[SmugStick]

I don't know if it's /unpopular/ but... KRILLIN is and forever will be the best character in all of Dragon Ball and his introduction contrasting with Gokū's arrival to Kamehouse makes me so happy about Toriyama being actually able to use imagery for contrast along with his development during the arc. His death is also the most heart breaking scene in all of Dragon Ball.

[Doctor.]

I want to wipe Super out of existence just for ushering in this new wave of bullshit, baseless headcanons. Seriously, half the stuff I hear people make up to justify stuff like Black's origin being nonsense just blatantly contradict what's in the actual show.

I'm not opposed to headcanons but when they've got fuck all to do with the actual material they're supposed to be about, a get a wee bit annoyed.

Dragon Ball was a mistake.

[Soppa Saia People]

I want to wipe Super out of existence just for ushering in this new wave of bullshit, baseless headcanons. Seriously, half the stuff I hear people make up to justify stuff like Black's origin being nonsense just blatantly contradict what's in the actual show.

I'm not opposed to headcanons but when they've got fuck all to do with the actual material they're supposed to be about, a get a wee bit annoyed.

Dragon Ball was a mistake.

- Arkira Toriyama, 1995 (probably)

[DBZAOTA482]

Then, let's imagine that the events had been different and that Gohan had not been avoiding losing control altogether and that Cell had not been pushing Gohan to lose control, but that Cell had still been torturing and was about to to murder Gohan's friends and family.

Psychologically, in that hypothetical situation, compared to the original situation, should Gohan be much less angry at Cell? Should Gohan consider it much less cruel and evil? Should it matter much less for Gohan? Should his reaction be much less expressive?

Would/should you, if you were in Gohan's place...?

You keep stressing that point like it somehow matters much in the light of the torturing and imminent murder of Gohan's friends and family... but it really shouldn't. Compared to the torturing and the imminent murder of his friends and family, the rest simply pales in comparison and I highly doubt any psychological sane person (including you), would find the two situations very different if it was their friends and their family... Neither should Gohan. Or are you going to argue that if you were in Gohan's place that point would somehow make things much different to you...?

That's not exactly the point I was getting across. In any other case yes Gohan probably would have just let loose and done his usual rage boosts since it's beyond his control but this is the first time he's ever seriously acknowledged his rage boosts and his ascension to "Super Saiyan 2" was clearly a rage boost like no other. The boy was already an emotional wreck by the time #16 butted in.

Also the fact you acknowledge what triggers Gohan in the first place, the scene of injustice, makes it silly you even try to argue against this in the first place.

You are claiming that Freeza killing children that had done absolutely nothing against him, after promising to spare them, after obtaining what he wanted and with their survival being irrelevant to him, is "definitely" not as senseless as Cell finishing off the android that had previously tried to kill him...

I don't think I'm the one reaching here...

Definitely more senseless. The Namekians refused to give Freeza what he wants and the children were merely part of the scare tactic to convince the elder but the Namekians were loyal to a fault so all of them die. And I don't give a fuck if they're children... does those little green fucks being children automatically make things worse than a "man" that was giving Gohan last-minute encouragement and was practically dead getting his stomped in?

Cell could've just left him alone as #16 had nothing to do with what's going on by that point but that was not enough for him.

I don't know if it's /unpopular/ but... KRILLIN is and forever will be the best character in all of Dragon Ball and his introduction contrasting with Gokū's arrival to Kamehouse makes me so happy about Toriyama being actually able to use imagery for contrast along with his development during the arc. His death is also the most heart breaking scene in all of Dragon Ball.

Krillin is my favorite character in the series right next to Vegeta.

[rereboy]

That's not exactly the point I was getting across.

And yet, that's what should really matter, especially from a psychological point of view. Cell's provocations contribute to make him seem evil and cruel, sure, but that's a drop in the ocean compared to factually torturing and being on the verge of killing one's friends and family, and that's how it should feel for Gohan.

Definitely more senseless. The Namekians refused to give Freeza what he wants and the children were merely part of the scare tactic to convince the elder but the Namekians were loyal to a fault so all of them die. And I don't give a fuck if they're children... does those little green fucks being children automatically make things worse than a "man" that was giving Gohan last-minute encouragement and was practically dead getting his stomped in?

Even if #16 was also a namekian child, he had personally attacked Cell a few minutes before, trying to kill him, meaning that Cell had a "bone to pick" with him. The namekian children in that village had done absolutely nothing against Freeza, nor did he gain anything by killing them.

So, in terms of cruelty, evilness and being senseless... yeah, compared to finishing off an android that had tried to kill you a few minutes ago, it actually is worse to kill children who have done nothing to you, that couldn't do anything to you, after promising to spare them if they gave him what you wanted and after they actually gave it to you.

I can't even see how can there be any doubts about this...

[LuckyCat]

I'm not sure there's a clear winner here as both Freeza and Cell are sadistic. Cell was literally torturing Krillin and Yamcha with his Cell Jrs. before telling them finally to finish them off. At least Freeza's murders were quick. You could really argue either way, since there's no way to measure cruelty in acts that are all up in the highest tiers of deplorable.

[rereboy]

Cell was literally torturing Krillin and Yamcha with his Cell Jrs. before telling them finally to finish them off.

Yes, but he had a logical reason to do it.

[LuckyCat]

Yes, but he had a logical reason to do it.

I'm sure Freeza would argue the same. The Namekians were being stubborn and Freeza wanted to show them he meant business. It was cruel, but effective.

[rereboy]

Yes, but he had a logical reason to do it.

I'm sure Freeza would argue the same. The Namekians were being stubborn and Freeza wanted to show them he meant business. It was cruel, but effective.

He already had the Dragon Ball. There was no point in killing the children at all. In fact, if he actually spared them, it might have become easier to get the remaining Dragon Balls because word might spread that they could survive if they just gave Freeza what he wanted right away. He wanted to kill them just because.

In any case, I agree that it's hard to say which one was the worst, but my point wasn't really that Freeza was obviously worse than Cell, but that Cell didn't break any record in terms of cruelty, evilness and on being senseless, and Gohan knows that.

[LuckyCat]

In any case, I agree that it's hard to say which one was the worst, but my point wasn't really that Freeza was obviously worse than Cell, but that Cell didn't break any record in terms of cruelty, evilness and on being senseless, and Gohan knows that.

There is a difference between Freeza threatening Namek/Namekians and Cell threatening Earth from Gohan's point of view. Earth's Gohan's home after all.

[Doctor.]

In any case, I agree that it's hard to say which one was the worst, but my point wasn't really that Freeza was obviously worse than Cell, but that Cell didn't break any record in terms of cruelty, evilness and on being senseless, and Gohan knows that.

There is a difference between Freeza threatening Namek/Namekians and Cell threatening Earth from Gohan's point of view. Earth's Gohan's home after all.

Freeza threatened to go to Earth and kill all of the Earthlings quite a few times during the final battle.

[DBZAOTA482]

Even if #16 was also a namekian child, he had personally attacked Cell a few minutes before, trying to kill him, meaning that Cell had a "bone to pick" with him. The namekian children in that village had done absolutely nothing against Freeza, nor did he gain anything by killing them.

So, in terms of cruelty, evilness and being senseless... yeah, compared to finishing off an android that had tried to kill you a few minutes ago, it actually is worse to kill children who have done nothing to you, that couldn't do anything to you, after promising to spare them if they gave him what you wanted and after they actually gave it to you.

I can't even see how can there be any doubts about this...

Cell didn't have a "bone to pick" with him. He already blasted him to pieces and before, he laughed at the idea that his kamikaze tactic could kill him.

I'm can't follow your train of thought here. Regardless of what #16 did before he is no longer a threat to anyone and Cell never brings up the past. Freeza had the Namekians killed specifically because they didn't give him what he wanted. Not only that but #16 gave more reason to care for him than random Namekians.

Cell was literally torturing Krillin and Yamcha with his Cell Jrs. before telling them finally to finish them off.

Yes, but he had a logical reason to do it.

Trying to break a boy mentally for the sake of a challenge is certainly not more logical than killing a whole village for not being cooperative.

[LuckyCat]

Freeza threatened to go to Earth and kill all of the Earthlings quite a few times during the final battle.

That's true, though I'm not sure if Gohan heard it. Though even that threat wasn't nearly as imminent as Cell's. It might be an interesting "What-if" to see what would happen if neither Trunks or Goku had appeared to fight Mecha Freeza and Vegeta and Gohan had to handle it.

[ABED]

I don't think anyone's changing their minds or adding new ideas to this conversation so might as well drop it. Agree to disagree.

I don't agree to that.

[ParkerAL]

Freeza would've killed the Namekians either way, I bet, no matter how much they cooperated. I can't picture him sparring them. And he'd want to make sure no one else could used the dragon balls.

[ekrolo2]

I want to wipe Super out of existence just for ushering in this new wave of bullshit, baseless headcanons. Seriously, half the stuff I hear people make up to justify stuff like Black's origin being nonsense just blatantly contradict what's in the actual show.

I'm not opposed to headcanons but when they've got fuck all to do with the actual material they're supposed to be about, a get a wee bit annoyed.

Dragon Ball was a mistake.

After seeing the latest master piece of an explanation "Beerus and Whis created a new timeline when they traveled to another universe!" I'm starting to see why studio executives and game developers treat their costumers like pants shitting idiots.

[Cure Dragon 255]

You are claiming that Freeza killing children that had done absolutely nothing against him, after promising to spare them, after obtaining what he wanted and with their survival being irrelevant to him, is "definitely" not as senseless as Cell finishing off the android that had previously tried to kill him...

I don't think I'm the one reaching here...

Definitely more senseless. The Namekians refused to give Freeza what he wants and the children were merely part of the scare tactic to convince the elder but the Namekians were loyal to a fault so all of them die. And I don't give a fuck if they're children... does those little green fucks being children automatically make things worse than a "man" that was giving Gohan last-minute encouragement and was practically dead getting his stomped in?

[/quote]


This is beyond appaling. So just because they didnt give the villain what they wanted and they are green aliens they are "Little green fucks" that people shouldnt give a shit about? That can work both ways, that fucking toaster (Coincidentially dressed in green) was designed to kill everyone why should we give a shit about it?

And this is coming from someone who loves 16 and loved the SS2 scene but enough is enough. You are trying to justify the killing of CHILDREN because you dont want your beloved scene to seen as less. This killed the scene for me. THANK YOU.