Super Kaioken? can someone please explain this to me?!

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Wed May 06, 2009 2:15 pm

Saiyan-Professor wrote:
Dayspring wrote:
Saiyan-Professor wrote: I would go with x800 because Toriyama went overboard with Super Saiyan 3 where it was 400 times the base so I do not see why Super Saiyan 4 would not be 800 times the base (double the amount SSJ 3 provides).
But it has nothing to do with SSJ3; it's a combination of Oozaru and regular SSJ, so base x (10 x 50), which equals x500. One could even argue that it's only as strong as SSJ3 because of the transition from Golden Oozaru to SSJ4. Where it would be beneficial there is that it has none of SSJ3's drawbacks.
Well it would just seem ridiculous to go overboard with Super Saiyan 3 and then just have Super Saiyan 4 x100 over Super Saiyan 3. One would think that it would blow Super Saiyan 3 out of the water as far the multiplication is concerned. Perhaps Herms has some information from the GT Perfect Files.

A x100 gain does blow SSJ3 out of the water. These guys have base PLs at least in the multimillions. Multiply that by 100 and you get the difference between SSJ3 and SSJ4. It's literally adding the strength of one's SSJ2 strength to their SSJ3 strength.

Remember that SSJ4 is just named that for convenience's sake. The USSJs, SSJ2, SSJ3, and SSJ4 are all different kinds of SSJ transformations:

USSJ = Be capable of going SSJ + surpassing current SSJ strength.
SSJ2 = Be capable of going SSJ + surpassing SSJ's limits.
SSJ3 = Be capable of going SSJ + be freakishly strong.
SSJ4 = Be capable of going SSJ + be capable of maintaining control of Oozaru form.

Another way to look at them is that USSJ = SSJ2a, SSJ2 = SSJ2b, SSJ3 = SSJ2c, and SSJ4 = SSJd. In other words, base form has 2 transformation choices: Oozaru or SSJ, while SSJ form has 4 transformation choices.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Wed May 06, 2009 4:55 pm

Hm, I don't think there's any evidence that Golden Oozaru and SSJ4 are only SSJ1 + Oozaru. If SSJ3 is the full extent of a Super Saiyajin's power, then I always thought it might be tapping into that. And since SSJ3 Goku was getting his butt whooped, and then Golden Oozaru and SSJ4 come along and kick Baby around, I figured that they were stronger. By how much I think it's impossible to say. Strengths in GT are so random that coming up with a number seems hard. It might as well be anything.

Edit: Also, I don't think it's so much that SSJ3 is overpowered, as it is SSJ2 is underpowered. SSJ1 is x50, that's huge. SSJ4 is x4, that's...kinda low, in comparison. SSJ2 is just double? It always seemed so much more impressive than that...

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sat May 09, 2009 10:41 pm

Dayspring wrote:I call plothole, as the lack of kaioken aura proves it wore off. For an in-story answer to this, one could argue Kaioken x3 Goku beating on Vegeta resulted in Vegeta being weaker. The burst explanation isn't just daizenshuu; it's straight from Goku's mouth, and is supported in every instance other than kaioken x3.

Kaioken x2 vs Ginyu wasn't a burst.

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Sat May 09, 2009 11:35 pm

Didn't he just power up for a second there?

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sun May 10, 2009 12:20 pm

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:Didn't he just power up for a second there?

Yup. Plus he's mastered Kaioken up to x10, meaning he can jump up to a value 7.5x stronger without any negative affects. Even if Ginyu somehow isn't defeated in that burst, Goku can just as easily use kaioken again.

dragonballzgtfighter · Post by **dragonballzgtfighter** » Sun May 10, 2009 5:51 pm

I wonder how strong Goku SS4 kaioken times 20 is.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sun May 10, 2009 6:48 pm

dragonballzgtfighter wrote:I wonder how strong Goku SS4 kaioken times 20 is.

We don't know how strong SSJ4 is compared to the base form. But it would be scarily strong, I'm sure.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Mon May 11, 2009 12:10 am

Bussani wrote:
dragonballzgtfighter wrote:I wonder how strong Goku SS4 kaioken times 20 is.
We don't know how strong SSJ4 is compared to the base form. But it would be scarily strong, I'm sure.

SSJ3 is x400, so at least base x8,000 (for SSJ4 at Kaioken x20). Regardless, Bussani is clearly correct.

Pain · Post by **Pain** » Mon May 11, 2009 9:15 pm

dragonballzgtfighter wrote:I wonder how strong Goku SS4 kaioken times 20 is.

I'm sure that Son would wish he was dead, had he ever experienced that type of horrible power.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Mon May 11, 2009 9:29 pm

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:Didn't he just power up for a second there?

No? He says "Kaioken!" and then his reading slowly rises up to 180,000.

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Mon May 11, 2009 9:39 pm

Rocketman wrote:
Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:Didn't he just power up for a second there?
No? He says "Kaioken!" and then his reading slowly rises up to 180,000.

Well, the Anime stretched that out over a bloody half episode. The Manga was all of four panels.

Pain · Post by **Pain** » Mon May 11, 2009 9:53 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Rocketman wrote:
Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:Didn't he just power up for a second there?
No? He says "Kaioken!" and then his reading slowly rises up to 180,000.
Well, the Anime stretched that out over a bloody half episode. The Manga was all of four panels.

What volume is this?

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Tue May 12, 2009 12:02 am

Pain wrote:
JulieYBM wrote:
Rocketman wrote: No? He says "Kaioken!" and then his reading slowly rises up to 180,000.
Well, the Anime stretched that out over a bloody half episode. The Manga was all of four panels.
What volume is this?

DBZ #8 (#24/42), pages 121-123. Technically, the four panels part only applies to the shots with Son in them, but it was very, very short.