Herms wrote:Not to mention the Kaioshin were all said to be able to defeat Freeza with a single blow, while East Kaioshin was absolutely terrified of Dabra, who was said to be as strong as Cell.
I think that the other kaioh shins, the ones absorved by bu, were able to destroy freezer with one single hit.
But East KaiohShin is a special case, vegeta says during his battle with goku that he is nothing.
In fact, the only thing East Kaiohshin bigger than freezer was his tongue, because even piccolo was stronger than him.
I know, I just stated that when Freeza arrived on earth he was at full power, wasn't worn out from fighting and wasn't just hit with a Genki Dama like on namek so he was at full potential.
But mecha freezer is weak, even if he isn't tired or injured.
His power is inferior to that of transformed cold...
Yeah.. One could argue that Freeza was mistaken since he can't sense ki, but usually characters have a general idea of how powerful they are even if they can't.
Yes, and Freeza has and idea of how powerful he was too.
But in this case, he had an idea of how powerful HE WAS ON NAMEK, and he thought that he was fully recovered. This is why even being weaker than his father he continued to say that he was the number one of the whole universe and things like that.
He might even have tested himself by blowing something up to find out. But more importantly, I don't think Toriyama would throw in a line just to mislead the reader like that.
Look, we are talking about freezer. Freezer had always been stronger than everything and he never trained or workied hard to obtain anything.
And I would say even more, he was veery angry.
It could have tested, this is true, but according to what happens on the manga and to his personality, I thing it is obvious he never did that.
And Toriyama never mislead the reader, never gives any wrong information.
Toriyama did that for a simple reason, he needed to introduce a SSJ, he didn't want enemies that could destroy the planet with a single atack (like freezer).
The best way to introduce a new SSJ was using freeza, a new enemy that needed his explanation would have been a bad idea.
And the best way to destroy freeza with one hit was making him much weak than he was before.
If toriyama really was thinking on makig mecha freeza stronger than the original, do you thing his father would appear on the history?
Freeza's father was used only to demonstrate to the reader that mecha freezer was weak, very weak.
meaning his 100% we saw wasn't his full power even though he seemed to think it was (yes, he can't sense ki, but I think he'd notice that something was wrong when he wasn't as strong or fast as he should be (same as Perfect Cell?)), and that even though he said he was stronger when he arrived on Earth he was actually far weaker than he should be.
It's an interesting theory, but I really doubt Mr Toriyama put that much thought into it.
Well, the cell saga is the most elaborate saga on all the DB history.
And freezer knew his power had decreased, he said that when he appears after the genkidama.
rereboy wrote:
First, you have no way to know how much stronger Piccolo became during those 3 years.
Yes, but I know that if in his whole life he reached 1 million, in three years he possibly could multiply this strength by 2 or 3 (in fact, this is what he does), but not by 300.
rereboy wrote:Second, you are assuming that all of the energy stolen by the androids simply adds to their own. You have no way to know if that process is 100% effective, if some of the energy stolen isn`t lost in the process, or exactily how much stonger they become with that energy or what exactily happens to the energy within the android body.
It is said on the manga that all the energy they absorb then is added to their own.
If the process worked differently (some energy lost when absorving or absorving 1 unit means 2 units of added energy) toriyama would said that in one part or another.
When makin a description, all what you don't say is suposed to be/work the normal way, so in that case, they tell us that they add to his power the power they substract from you, so it hasn't much sense to try to think this doesn't happens really.
Chibi_gohan wrote:
1. Kaio-Ken was always, always, always shown giving the user an intense red aura. Always. Against Nappa, against Vegeta, against Ginyu, and even when Goku used his Kaio-Ken x20 against Freeza. Why would the Kaio-Ken x10 have some invisible aura that's never mentioned in the series or the guide books? It makes no sense. Notice that Kaio told Tenshinhan that Goku was already using the Kaio-Ken x10 right after Goku started having an aura? Is that a coincidence?
Look at the manga, when kaioh says goku is using his kaioh ken x10, and you will see no aura in the whole chapter, excepting for the page 10 of that chapter, but goku is fliying and when fliying an aura appears.
Then, after kaioh says that about goku (he says that at the last page of chapter 312), it appears goku again (1st page of chapter 313) without any aura, and the only aura you see is when he flies to avoid one freezer attack.
Goku in namek said that he had controlled perfectly the kaioh ken x10, and according to what kaito says, he had been using kaioh ken since de begining of the match.
In the anime they thought that kaioh ken was being used only AFTER kaioh said that, and the same for the daizenshuu, an THIS WAS A BIG MISTAKE.
Look at the manga, read the whole fight between goku and freeza, and you will see that the only aura's that appears are:
The aura you have when fliying.
The aura of Kaioh Ken x20.
The aura of the SSJ.
Kaioh ken x10 aura never appears, and this is because goku is always using it.
2. Kaio-Ken is described as giving the user a boost in power, speed, etc. for an instant. Both when Goku described the technique to Kuririn and Gohan and when he showed it to Ginyu. It'd be crazy for Goku to maintain the technique for the entire battle.
No if he controls the techique perfectly.
When he uses kaioh ken x20, a level of kaioh ken that he can't control, he uses it only for an instant.
3. Goku claims that one mistake with Kaio-Ken could destroy his body instantly. He'd blow up! Notice how it was always a last resort? He said "I won't use the Kaio-Ken on you yet" to Nappa, when he could destroy him in an instant with it. The same thing with Vegeta and Ginyu, only after he tested his strength against them. Why would he start fighting Freeza at full power? Which brings me to my next point...
Yes, but he also sais that he can control a kaioh ken x10 perfectly.
It is not my fault that toriyama made goku so good on mastering techniques.
4. The classic Dragon Ball formula for battle is: Goku fights the enemy without using his full power to test them/warm up--> Goku is forced to use his full power after the enemy proves to be too much/powers up to their full power. Honestly, how many battles can you name where Goku used his full strength from the start instead of "warming up"? It's not his style.
Well, look at the battle against vegeta, goku was using its kaioh ken most of the time.
And it is not true that goku was on his full power since the begining, he had he kaioh ken x20 or things like the genkidama in reserve.
5. After Freeza and Goku fought for a while, Freeza said that it was time to end their warm up (See? A warm up!). He then said that he knew that Goku was still hiding power. Goku confirmed Freeza's suspicion. Now, if Goku was using the Kaio-Ken x10 prior to that, what power was Goku hiding?
Kaioh ken x11 - x20, Genkidama...
If not using kaioh ken x10, goku's power would be 2,5% of freeza total power. ¿Do you really think that he could touch freeza without using kaioh ken x10?
You can say that freeza was fighting at 2,5% of his total strength, but this would contradict the manga when says that freezer can't control all his power and this is why he transforms.
And furthermore, the cell saga's numbers wouldn't have any sense (number of absorved people) or all those numbers.
There is no extra aura when kaioh says that goku used kaioh ken x10, so since kaioh says that IN PAST and since toriyama didn't draw anything different to make us think that goku started to use the aura when freezer reached it's 50% of total strength, I think the correct way of interpretate that is to say that goku was using it's kaioh ken x 10 since the begining.
It couldn't have been the Kaio-Ken x20, because he only used that as his very last resort; his final gamble.
There are plenty of kaioh ken between 10 and 20, what happens is that when freezer said he was warming up, he really was warming up.
Even goku thought freeza was lying when he said he was only using 50% of its total strength, and this is why goku used directly kaioh ken x20 instead of kaioh ken x15 for example, because freezer was stronger than they thougth.
6. You yourself said that using the Kaio-Ken for even a short time lowered his power and stamina greatly.
Used at levels you can't control.
And about your list, it is impossible that when talking about milions of units, 1 single unit could make de diference.
rereboy wrote:Goku became several times stronger than he ever was to be in just a few days training while travelling to Namek. You can`t apply that kind of logic to Dragon Ball.
Yes, but this is justified in the manga saying he was training with 100G of gravity AND using and abusing of it's zenkay power.
The training between freezer's saga and the androids saga is different, in the case of the sayans all of them had reached its base state power limit.
And in the case of piccolo, he hasn't anything like zenkay power to justify this brutal increment of strength.
And then there is another thing, if piccolo, training 3 years in normal gravity and without anything special can multiply its power from 1 to 300 million unit, why when he enters to the special training space at god's palace he didn't muliply it again in that way?
The only spectacular training that there is on DB is the one that goku does while is goin to namek, and toriyama explains us the reason of why goku can improve so much in 6 days.
I actually dont remember that being stated with certainty. But if you say so, I`ll take your word.
It is said during the fight of A19 vs goku and then cell's explain what he does to piccolo at ginger town.
In both cases, they absorv energy and add it to its own power, the difference is that A19 and A20 can even absorb the energy coming from energy attacks and thinks like that.
Regards.
