Dragonball GT BGM

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

The original is factually the correct version. Liking or disliking it has nothing to do with the matter. A licensor's adaptation/reversioning does not affect the fact that the original is the proper and universal representation of the series.

What do you mean by "correct"? You are using it out of context, something that comes after something else that has been changed, does not make it anymore "correct" than the original.

[JulieYBM]

The original is factually the correct version. Liking or disliking it has nothing to do with the matter. A licensor's adaptation/reversioning does not affect the fact that the original is the proper and universal representation of the series.

No, it's just the original: it doesn't make it correct just because someone intended it that way. Someone could make an epic action movie, but with the soundtrack being polka music that is completely unrelated to what's going on. Most people would bash it for having a horrible score and if someone made a version of the movie music that completely fit the tone, everyone would praise it and call it how the movie should've been scored, regardless of the filmmaker "intending" to have silly polka music as the soundtrack.

Than the film is failing upon its own merits.


However, your example is a ridiculous one.

[jjgp1112]

The original is factually the correct version. Liking or disliking it has nothing to do with the matter. A licensor's adaptation/reversioning does not affect the fact that the original is the proper and universal representation of the series.

No, it's just the original: it doesn't make it correct just because someone intended it that way. Someone could make an epic action movie, but with the soundtrack being polka music that is completely unrelated to what's going on. Most people would bash it for having a horrible score and if someone made a version of the movie music that completely fit the tone, everyone would praise it and call it how the movie should've been scored, regardless of the filmmaker "intending" to have silly polka music as the soundtrack.

Than the film is failing upon its own merits.


However, your example is a ridiculous one.

How? It's a little exaggerated, but it perfectly illustrates my point - just because it's what was there originally doesn't make it any more correct. Some people think that the Japanese version of DBZ is "failing upon its own merits."

[Kaboom]

Any good, faithful dub keeps the original music.

It's just how these things work. It's what was made and produced as part of the series' original creation, and as such it has cemented itself there and is what belongs there. Fact.

That's what makes a good, or at least faithful, dub. Not necessarily what makes a good original production. As for your polka reference, it's the same. Keeping the original polka BGM would make it a good dub of the movie. It'd just be a good dub of a movie that was crappy to begin with. Like how the Twilight movies are retch-worthy not because they were adapted badly from the books, but because the books are a pathetic waste of paper to begin with.

A scattered few people prefer watching DragonBall Z with the dub's "reversioned" music from FUNimation, for god-only-knows what reason. But don't go around pretending that it's what "fits best" with the series, or that it was a good or smart move to insert it in place of the original, or especially that it "belongs" there. That's stupid.

[jjgp1112]

Any good, faithful dub keeps the original music. It's just how these things work. It's what was made and produced as part of the series' original creation, and should be kept.

That's what makes a good, or at least faithful, dub. Not necessarily what makes a good original production. As for your polka reference, it's the same. Keeping the original polka BGM would make it a good dub of the movie. It'd just be a good dub of a movie that was crappy to begin with. Like how the Twilight movies are bad not because they were adapted badly from the books, but because the books are a pathetic waste of paper to begin with.

A scattered few people prefer the DragonBall Z dub's "reversioned" music from FUNimation, for god-only-knows what reason. But don't go around pretending that it's what "fits best" with the series, and certainly not that it was a good or smart move to insert it in place of the original. That's stupid.

I'm not saying it was a good decision. I'm just saying it fits best and I'm sure as hell not "pretending" that that's the case. That's just the way I personally think. If you have a problem with it, then, well, uh, sorry.

[JulieYBM]

Any good, faithful dub keeps the original music. It's just how these things work. It's what was made and produced as part of the series' original creation, and should be kept.

That's what makes a good, or at least faithful, dub. Not necessarily what makes a good original production. As for your polka reference, it's the same. Keeping the original polka BGM would make it a good dub of the movie. It'd just be a good dub of a movie that was crappy to begin with. Like how the Twilight movies are bad not because they were adapted badly from the books, but because the books are a pathetic waste of paper to begin with.

A scattered few people prefer the DragonBall Z dub's "reversioned" music from FUNimation, for god-only-knows what reason. But don't go around pretending that it's what "fits best" with the series, and certainly not that it was a good or smart move to insert it in place of the original. That's stupid.

I'm not saying it was a good decision. I'm just saying it fits best and I'm sure as hell not "pretending" that that's the case. That's just the way I personally think. If you have a problem with it, then, well, uh, sorry.

You're asserting your opinion as correct. The fact is, the original is the correct version. It's not a matter of relevancy.

[Kaboom]

You're asserting your opinion as correct. The fact is, the original is the correct version. It's not a matter of relevancy.

Precisely. It has nothing to do with preference. It's a matter of correct or incorrect.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

You're asserting your opinion as correct. The fact is, the original is the correct version. It's not a matter of relevancy.

If something is original that does not necessarily make it correct, stop connecting those two words.

[LilKokuLink]

The japanese score is the original version, I wouldn't really call it correct... However, if that is the case and you are going to call it correct, then I think that you can conclude with saying that the dub is not original however it is also correct. What makes the japanese one correct and the dub not? Just because it was the original and the first? You really can't call the dub incorrect. As for this case, GT BGM, I prefer the japanese score... but I wouldn't call the dub incorrect because in literacy terms you're basically calling it wrong.

It's like a song, such as Michael Jackson's Beat It, it is the original. Fall Out Boy did a cover and changed the instrumental and some other things... it's not the original but its not incorrect. I don't like Fall Out Boy's cover but I still choose to accept it, it's not like I'm going to be all childish about it and say it's incorrect and pretend it doesn't exist, because it does.

However there are other things that you can call incorrect, such as the whole widescreen issue on the seasons sets - even though I like it, people can still call it incorrect as it's certainly not how it was meant to be seen as funimation stated.

Staying on topic, you just can't call the dub wrong. I haven't got any games consoles so I don't know much about this field but, Dragon Ball games with the dub voices from the japanese should therefore be called incorrect, right? Again, I don't know much about it but I'm sure that's the case for many games.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

Exactly, "correct" is the wrong term to use when referring to the original music over the dub music. Just because the dub music didn't come first, doesn't mean its "incorrect".

[jjgp1112]

Any good, faithful dub keeps the original music. It's just how these things work. It's what was made and produced as part of the series' original creation, and should be kept.

That's what makes a good, or at least faithful, dub. Not necessarily what makes a good original production. As for your polka reference, it's the same. Keeping the original polka BGM would make it a good dub of the movie. It'd just be a good dub of a movie that was crappy to begin with. Like how the Twilight movies are bad not because they were adapted badly from the books, but because the books are a pathetic waste of paper to begin with.

A scattered few people prefer the DragonBall Z dub's "reversioned" music from FUNimation, for god-only-knows what reason. But don't go around pretending that it's what "fits best" with the series, and certainly not that it was a good or smart move to insert it in place of the original. That's stupid.

I'm not saying it was a good decision. I'm just saying it fits best and I'm sure as hell not "pretending" that that's the case. That's just the way I personally think. If you have a problem with it, then, well, uh, sorry.

You're asserting your opinion as correct. The fact is, the original is the correct version. It's not a matter of relevancy.

The original is correct in your opinion. This whole time I was simply arguing that the dub score was correct in my opinion just to show the flaw in saying that the original is factually correct just because it happened to be what was made first. It's all subjective. What you think fits a scene better may be different from another person, so stop asserting everything as fact. When I first saw the scene in the dub when Gohan killed the Cell Juniors, I thought it was awesome. A year later, when I found out my friend downloaded that episode on Morpheus, I played that scene at least 50 times in rotation because the music was awesome. And then, when I checked out the Japanese version of that scene when I bought the single in 2004, I was underwhelmed and thought it fell completely flat, because in my opinion, it didn't fit the scene at all. But if you thought it did and that the dub got it wrong, more power to you. But that doesn't mean you're right, and it doesn't mean I'm right either. I'm not even arguing whether or not it was right for Funi to change the score. But they did, and there's nothing me or you can do to change it. It is what it is. And since Funi did change the score, it gives some of us room to decide what we think truly fit certain scenes better and what hit closest to the mark of what was conveyed in the scene.

[LilKokuLink]

The original is correct in your opinion. This whole time I was simply arguing that the dub score was correct in my opinion just to show the flaw in saying that the original is factually correct just because it happened to be what was made first. It's all subjective. What you think fits a scene better may be different from another person, so stop asserting everything as fact. When I first saw the scene in the dub when Gohan killed the Cell Juniors, I thought it was awesome. A year later, when I found out my friend downloaded that episode on Morpheus, I played that scene at least 50 times in rotation because the music was awesome. And then, when I checked out the Japanese version of that scene when I bought the single in 2004, I was underwhelmed and thought it fell completely flat, because in my opinion, it didn't fit the scene at all. But if you thought it did and that the dub got it wrong, more power to you. But that doesn't mean you're right, and it doesn't mean I'm right either. I'm not even arguing whether or not it was right for Funi to change the score. But they did, and there's nothing me or you can do to change it. It is what it is. And since Funi did change the score, it gives some of us room to decide what we think truly fit certain scenes better and what hit closest to the mark of what was conveyed in the scene.

I think what they're saying is more than just certain scenes, I'm not going to put words in their mouth but I think they mean as a whole and that generally Funimation shouldn't have changed the score because the music that is already there is how it was originally meant to be seen.

[jjgp1112]

The main thing is I'm just tired of them getting "defensive" whenever someone says that the dub music fits the show better. Let people think for themselves, for God's sake. Like I said, Funi shouldn't have changed the music, but they did and we can't change it, so let people decide for themselves what they like since they actually have a choice.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

The main thing is I'm just tired of them getting "defensive" whenever someone says that the dub music fits the show better. Let people think for themselves, for God's sake. Like I said, Funi shouldn't have changed the music, but they did and we can't change it, so let people decide for themselves what they like since the actually have a choice.

Thats the smartest and most level-headed response in this whole thread.

Funimation changed the music and now we can choose which one we think is better, if thats the replacement music then thats our choice and you people should accept it instead of going on like: OMG DA ORIGNAL IZ COREKT and other elitist nonsense like that.

[VegettoEX]

When I first saw the scene in the dub when Gohan killed the Cell Juniors, I thought it was awesome. A year later, when I found out my friend downloaded that episode on Morpheus, I played that scene at least 50 times in rotation because the music was awesome. And then, when I checked out the Japanese version of that scene when I bought the single in 2004, I was underwhelmed and thought it fell completely flat, because in my opinion, it didn't fit the scene at all.

To be fair, that seems to be much less about whether you "liked" the Japanese score in that scene or not, and more about the fact that you've been so indoctrinated to the FUNimation replacement score, and for that particular scene you drove it into your head all on your own time to form a "this is how it is" frame of mind. There's no way that anything other than your state-of-being interpretation of the scene could hold a candle to what you saw as "it".

I am having a pretty big problem with Yuugi's and Kaboom's weird usage of "correct", I think, though. It just doesn't make any sense. "Correct" as a factual statement of truth doesn't really fit in with the subjective-musical-interest argument. We all agree it came first, we all agree that was the one that was intended to be there by the artists actually making it, and we all agree (for the most part!) that the change should never have been made. I think we're all pretty cool, there.

I... guess...?... the word "correct" may sorta work if you're making a crazy stretch with it...? It's not like math where there's only one answer to "1+1" (2, of course). There are two "answers" here... two schools of thought, two religions, two products that stand on their own ground (notice I didn't say "merits").

It's pretty clear which one that the company (FUNimation) is trying to steer themselves back away from, though. That should tell their audience a whole lot. They thought you were a bunch of absolute drooling buffoons several years ago, but now they're trying to give you a little credit.

[jjgp1112]

Well yeah, after seeing that scene so many times, that's what was ingrained in my mind every time I saw it. However, I at least would have been accepting to the Japanese version of the Cell Juniors scene if it at least used one of the more fast paced, action themes from the soundtrack. Instead, it used that slow paced song from the beginning of Movie 7 that just didn't fit with the action at all. It was all very awkward to watch.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

To be fair, that seems to be much less about whether you "liked" the Japanese score in that scene or not, and more about the fact that you've been so indoctrinated to the FUNimation replacement score, and for that particular scene you drove it into your head all on your own time to form a "this is how it is" frame of mind. There's no way that anything other than your state-of-being interpretation of the scene could hold a candle to what you saw as "it".

Don't assume that is why he likes it, he gave the original score a chance in that scene and in his opinion it didn't stack up to the replacement score. Thats exactly what happened with me and the Dragon Ball GT replacement score.

I am having a pretty big problem with Yuugi's and Kaboom's weird usage of "correct", I think, though. It just doesn't make any sense. "Correct" as a factual statement of truth doesn't really fit in with the subjective-musical-interest argument.

Agreed. Correct is used way out of context in this musical discussion and whether the original or replacement score is better is purely subjective.

[VegettoEX]

Don't assume that is why he likes it

But... he said that was basically the situation.

I'm pretty fascinated by the claims that certain music doesn't fit a scene. That statement in-and-of-itself I understand in theory, but the examples that always gets tossed out are "action" scenes that have "slow" music in the original.

One anime-based comparison that had a similar "controversy" was the Chun-Li vs Vega/Balrog fight in the Street Fighter II anime movie. In the original Japanese version, the music played was a very ambient and laid-back tune that happened to be playing on Chun-Li's stereo. It set the mood in an incredible way because of the contrast of this seductive music transposed against the horrible violence taking place. Over in the English dub of the scene, it cuts in and gets swapped out for a KMFDM tune that goes for the same over-the-top "GGRRR!!! HARDCORE VIOLENCE!!!" that FUNimation went for a lot. Does it "fit"...? Well, sure. I guess...?

I'm struggling to think of one specific example off the top of my head, but haven't any of you ever seen a Hollywood movie with the same situation? Where these absolutely atrocious acts of violence are taking place with a backdrop of sullen and contrasting music? I mean, it's a standard trope. Kikuchi's and Tokunaga's scores do this often. Does Menza have anything like that? Anything at all in terms of artistic contrast and dynamics? A sense of place?

I honestly have no idea, having seen all of two minutes of a dubbed DBGT episode. Like I said before, though, it seemed universally loathed ever since its debut, and with FUNimation moving away from it (losing their dub-only theme songs and offering a dub with the original Japanese score), that also speaks volumes.

[jjgp1112]

Well, the theme that was being used in the Japanese version was a slow paced, monotone, repetitious tune that I would better associate with "introduction" scenes or flashbacks. It fit perfectly when it was used when Androids 14 & 15 were first introduced in Movie 7, but out of the billion times it was used during scenes in the Cell Games saga, it just felt completely out of place, and overplayed as well. That's just me, though. I mean, it's cool to have contrasting music as long as it's actually done correctly instead of just throwing any random song on there to try and beat you over the head with "subtlety," the which is rarely the case in the Japanese score, IMO.

And not only that, but this Dragon Ball Z/GT we're talking about, which has as much over-the-top sci-fi violence as you can get, there's not really much subtlety to even attempt to find during much of the fight scenes.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

One anime-based comparison that had a similar "controversy" was the Chun-Li vs Vega/Balrog fight in the Street Fighter II anime movie. In the original Japanese version, the music played was a very ambient and laid-back tune that happened to be playing on Chun-Li's stereo. It set the mood in an incredible way because of the contrast of this seductive music transposed against the horrible violence taking place. Over in the English dub of the scene, it cuts in and gets swapped out for a KMFDM tune that goes for the same over-the-top "GGRRR!!! HARDCORE VIOLENCE!!!" that FUNimation went for a lot. Does it "fit"...? Well, sure. I guess...?

Apart from that particular scene you described, fast-paced music fits action scenes like bread and butter, in other words they go together well and make the scene complete. Orchestral music in action scenes can work as long as its fast-paced unlike the song that was playing when Gohan goes Super Saiyan 2.