Kaioshin

[Son Edo]

Kaioshin.

[p123]

Yes I have him in that general range...

It's dependant on several factors....


Depending on how strong you have the Trunks=Vegeta=Cell Jr general range of power in relation to MSSJ Goku 100% power is on avenue.

I would think Vegeta is about 70-75% of MSSJ Goku at the Cell Games. Which would also bring Trunks and Cell Jr at least in that general range.


So now, how strong is SSJ Teen Gohan? One would think he is at maximum equals with MSSJ Goku or perhaps even a little bit below...


I personally have Teen Gohan @ 90% of MSSJ Goku Cell games.

So then, you have the relation between Kaioshin and SSJ Teen Gohan. Personally I want to have Kaioshin as close as possible to Teen Gohan's SSJ power. Kaioshin does remarkable well against Buu in comparison to how Gohan does against Buu. So it appears Kaioshin is in MSSJ range.

Then I took the other Kaioshin's and the Z sword into account. Kaioshin says he was the weakest of the group, also, I don't think it is ever implied for Kaioshin to surpass any of those Kaioshins from years ago, but it could have happened but me personally I don't see it.... So I have something like this...



MSSJ Goku 100
Teen Gohan 90
SouthKai 80
Dai Kai 75
West 70
North 65
East 60


To me this was the closest range to which I could get Kaioshin. I think the ranges for the 5 Kaioshins should be pretty close as I put it, but just enough were you can notice one is above the other.

I have Vegeta=Trunks=Cell Jr at a 75 in comparison to MSSJ Goku's 100. That could be 70 perhaps even 65 as well.


What do you think about that POV Son Edo?

[Nazi Cola]

So now, how strong is SSJ Teen Gohan? One would think he is at maximum equals with MSSJ Goku or perhaps even a little bit below...


I personally have Teen Gohan @ 90% of MSSJ Goku Cell games.

Going by Goku's statement comparing Dabra to Cell, Gohan should at the least be equal to SSjin Goku from the Cell Games. Gohan was a Super Saiyan so Goku's statement only makes sense if he was talking about the Cell he fought. The Cell he fought was ahead of Goku by a bit in their fight (enough ahead to keep the fight interesting but not dominate Goku), and Gohan was fighting equally with someone of this strength, so it'd put him above SSjin Goku by a bit in my book.

[Savage68]

Gohan was a Super Saiyan so Goku's statement only makes sense if he was talking about the Cell he fought.

That's where it wouldn't make sense. Goku guesses that Dabura is about as strong as Cell, and says that he would've been trouble seven years ago. The point of it being a guess was that he didn't know, which is because he realized Dabura didn't show his full strength. When Goku actually sees him fight, that's when he admits that Dabura's stronger than he first thought. And what he first thought was that he's probably about the same as Cell.

[Nazi Cola]

Welp, there I go. Here to lend credence to the damned.

[lash]

Kaioshin's:

-Likely weaker than any buu arc SSJ(aside from pre RoSaT Goten and Trunks).
-Stronger than Piccolo.
-Likely stronger than all of Babidi's goon's aside from Dabura.

[uzuni]

Kaioshin's:

-Likely weaker than any buu arc SSJ(aside from pre RoSaT Goten and Trunks).
-Stronger than Piccolo.
-Likely stronger than all of Babidi's goon's aside from Dabura.

That almost fits in exactly with my PL list:

SSJ Goku: 3,000,000,000
SSJ Vegeta: 2,500,000,000
SSJ Gohan: 2,000,000,000
Piccolo: 1,000,000,000
Kaioshin: 2,000,000,000
Dabra: 4,000,000,000

Only difference is that I have Kaioshin=SSJ Gohan rather than <

[dbgtFO]

Kaioshin does remarkable well against Buu in comparison to how Gohan does against Buu.

When? When he is getting curbstomped rather easily?
I can't see how his fight with Fat Man is enough to properly determine his strength compared to SSJ Gohan, since all he does is survive a few hits and then land some useless ones by himself.
His greatest feat however is that he survived that explosion Fat Man made.

[Savage68]

When? When he is getting curbstomped rather easily?

Yes, by an enemy that's using the same amount of power to curbstomp both of his opponents. And when he dispersed a ki blast from Buu that left SSJ/SSJ2 Gohan on death's door with a kiai, in a beaten and battered state, no less.

His greatest feat however is that he survived that explosion Fat Man made.

Nothing says that Kaioshin was struck by that attack. Quite frankly, he'd be dead if he was, and if he was, he'd be stronger than Vegeta. I'm sure that notion wouldn't sit too well with you.

[lash]

Yes, by an enemy that's using the same amount of power to curbstomp both of his opponents.

What makes us so sure of that?

[Savage68]

Fat Buu is incapable of sensing ki, and what's more, would have no reason to pull his punches (even further) with either Gohan or Kaioshin.

[lash]

Although what you are saying is true, looking at the situation it really didn't seem like Buu was trying to kill Kaioshin as he was Gohan. There really isn't a good reason for it, but in all honestly Buu just didn't seem to like Gohan at all. He was pretty much trying to put the fella out of commission since the start. While on the other hand he prolonged Kaioshin's suffering. He could have blasted Kaioshin to ashes right after the first hit if he wanted to end it quickly like he did to Gohan, but he choose not to. Gohan was an annoyance, while Kaioshin was his bitch.

[dbgtFO]

When? When he is getting curbstomped rather easily?

Yes, by an enemy that's using the same amount of power to curbstomp both of his opponents. And when he dispersed a ki blast from Buu that left SSJ/SSJ2 Gohan on death's door with a kiai, in a beaten and battered state, no less.

His greatest feat however is that he survived that explosion Fat Man made.

Nothing says that Kaioshin was struck by that attack. Quite frankly, he'd be dead if he was, and if he was, he'd be stronger than Vegeta. I'm sure that notion wouldn't sit too well with you.

Yeah about the explosion he somehow escaped it, rather, than tanking it head on. It's still impressive though, when you consider, that he was lying on the ground beaten to a pulp.

And about taking hits from Buu, I agree that the same amount of power was used, but he isn't doing better, than Gohan in any way.
@lash you're right, Buu even stated, that Gohan was in the way or something like that.
In viz he just states: "You bad. Go away!"
In the original, I don't know...

[Savage68]

Although what you are saying is true, looking at the situation it really didn't seem like Buu was trying to kill Kaioshin as he was Gohan. He was pretty much trying to put the fella out of commission since the start. While on the other hand he prolonged Kaioshin's suffering.

That's only because Gohan disappeared for six pages while Kaioshin was standing his ground, taking many more blows than Gohan ever did (which was only one), while dishing out ki attacks. If anything, implications are given there that Kaioshin and Gohan barely even have a gap between their powers, unless you're of the mind that Gohan was a normal Super Saiyan. And in that case, I would just go with the explanation of Kaioshin flat-out being Buu's stronger punching bag.

And about taking hits from Buu, I agree that the same amount of power was used, but he isn't doing better, than Gohan in any way.

He recovered and began attempting his counterattack faster than Gohan, after being smashed with three attacks. Gohan was only smashed with one. And he dispersed a big "meant-to-kill" ki blast that was COMPLETELY overwhelming while heavily injured. If that doesn't constitute "doing better," what does?

[lash]

That's only because Gohan disappeared for six pages while Kaioshin was standing his ground, taking many more blows than Gohan ever did (which was only one), while dishing out ki attacks. If anything, implications are given there that Kaioshin and Gohan barely even have a gap between their powers, unless you're of the mind that Gohan was a normal Super Saiyan. And in that case, I would just go with the explanation of Kaioshin flat-out being Buu's stronger punching bag.

Interesting interpretation. The way I see it, the implications simply show that Buu toyed with kaioshin as opposed to just getting rid of Gohan as quickly as he could. It's not necessarily about Kaioshin having better durability than Gohan. Buu just enjoyed torturing Kaioshin, while he found Gohan annoying. Thus dealt with both differently.

[Savage68]

Buu decides that Gohan is an annoyance only directly before that realization is acted on, as was stated and shown. There's no basis to be found in the idea that Gohan was specifically targeted the entire time, yet was only sent flying at the very end, and on top of that, the idea that Buu held back just enough to continue pummeling Kaioshin while keeping him conscious or whatever. We've seen how Buu immediately dispatches of those who piss him off in Dabura.

[Piccolo Daimao]

When Goku actually sees him fight, that's when he admits that Dabura's stronger than he first thought. And what he first thought was that he's probably about the same as Cell.

I thought he only says "he's tougher than I thought". And he says that right after he says, "So he uses magic, huh?" It could mean that Dabra's just more dangerous that he thought, considering his magic abilities (like his spit).

Buu decides that Gohan is an annoyance only directly before that realization is acted on, as was stated and shown. There's no basis to be found in the idea that Gohan was specifically targeted the entire time, yet was only sent flying at the very end, and on top of that, the idea that Buu held back just enough to continue pummeling Kaioshin while keeping him conscious or whatever. We've seen how Buu immediately dispatches of those who piss him off in Dabura.

You're saying that Kaioshin is stronger than SSj Gohan. When the story tells us the exact opposite. Kaioshin is astounded at all the Super Saiyans' power, and puts his trust in Gohan to defeat Boo. Plus, he's scared of even facing Dabra, who SSj Gohan fights evenly.

There are different ways to go about interpreting how Boo dealt with both Kaioshin and SSj Gohan. Even though Gohan was taken out in one attack, we did see him recover a few panels after. It's possible that Boo took out Gohan first so he could take his time to play with Kaioshin, before he played with Gohan. It was when Gohan interrupted him playing with Kaioshin that he decided to just blast him away because he was pissing him off. And Kaioshin neutralizing Boo's blast could be put down to his magic, which we've seen is much stronger than his actual physical strength (since he was able to paralyze SSj2 Gohan).

I don't think you can take only that battle as proof that Kaioshin was stronger than SSj Gohan when the story tells us the exact opposite. Kaioshin's astounded at all their powers, was scared of Dabra when SSj Gohan was fighting him evenly and thinks that Gohan can beat Boo.

[Senzu_Bean]

Kaioshin cannot be weaker than the Super Saiyans. He hold back a Super Saiyan 2 with his own power; the gap between him and Piccolo is HUGE; Kibito wonders how a human (meaning non-god) has such power; he never claims Super Saiyan power as something amazing but he does for Super Saiyan 2, etc.

[Son Edo]

Senzu has some valid points here.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Kaioshin cannot be weaker than the Super Saiyans. He hold back a Super Saiyan 2 with his own power; the gap between him and Piccolo is HUGE; Kibito wonders how a human (meaning non-god) has such power; he never claims Super Saiyan power as something amazing but he does for Super Saiyan 2, etc.

He held back a Super Saiyan 2 with his magic, which is far stronger than his physical strength, and is continuously astounded by the Saiyans' power. Now, I'm not saying Kaioshin's weaker than the base Saiyans, since that's ridiculous; at first, he was only shocked how mere mortals could be this strong. But an opponent he was scared to fight and considered trouble, SSj Gohan could fight on even ground, and when Kaioshin tried to stop Goku and Vegeta fighting, he backed down when SSj Goku threatened to blast him. Yes, Kaioshin is way stronger than Piccolo, but Piccolo is far below the Super Saiyans anyway. Remember that he thought Gohan could beat Boo and claimed that Kibito hasn't even seen his full power, and he's only seen Gohan fight as a SSj.