Kaioshin

[uzuni]

Just how strong was he? Piccolo was immobilized by him and wasn't able to fight, despite his own impressive power. So, where would he fit? Around SSJ1 Gohan level?

[Bussani]

His Daizenshuu bio says this:

His strength is far superior to the Super Namekian Piccolo, but he was still the weakest out of the five Kaioshins who used to exist. He was beaten up to the verge of death by Majin Buu both before and after Buu's revival.

Some people weren't sure if Piccolo's comment about him being beyond him was due to his power or position as the highest God, but the Daizenshuu seems to think it's the former. He's probably below SSJ1 Gohan, though, since SSJ1 Gohan was able to pull out the Z-Sword, which apparently none of the Kaioshin were able to do. Of course, then there's the possibility that it's not just raw power that's needed to pull out the Z-Sword... That's all I can think of mentioning.

[Savage68]

Hm, this is a pickle.

Firstly, actions speak louder than words, especially in the Buu arc. So, despite all those OMG WUT? faces (that don't necessarily solidify anything about strength) that were given in one of the SLOPPIEST sequences ever -- Babidi's ship -- I'll say he's above every Super Saiyan, and borderline Super Saiyan 2 tier. I will say though, that immobilizing Gohan while two skinheaded goons drained his ki doesn't give us a clue as to how strong he is, because Gurd accomplished the same "feat" on much stronger opponents. I'm not gonna bring up Piccolo's surrender either, because that could be interpreted to mean any damn thing, and only muddies the discussion with opinion vs. opinion. But it's whatev, Kaioshin never loses his confidence in controlling the Saiyans' power until Super Saiyan 2 is shown off, and was performing damn near better than Gohan (who I believe to have been SSJ2, but even if you think he's a normal Super Saiyan there -- the correlation is proportional) did against Fat Buu, who wasn't pulling his punches any more for either of them.

[uzuni]

I'd like to put him above the SSJ1's because that would explain Piccolo's reaction...however, if he was really that powerful to begin with how would you explain his fusion with Kibito?? I mean, surely, a Potara fusion would greatly multiply his power and make him more than a match for SSJ3 Goku/Kid Boo, and yet he's overlooked as if he's nothing.

[p123]

I think Kaioshin/Gohan vs Fat Buu, especially considering Fat Buu can't sense ki automatically puts Kaioshin somewhere in the MSSJ range. The Piccolo comment whatever it's purpose endorses this as well. And the Z Sword logic tops it off.

With all of those things factored in, this is what I decided to come up with. I made Kaioshin as strong as I possible could, while maintaining enough spacing to keep his statements accurate...

( In Killi )

SSJ Teen Gohan 4,500
South Kaioshin 4,000
Dai Kaioshin 3,750
West Kaioshin 3,500
North Kaioshin 3,250
Kaioshin 3,000


I think this is the best example of how the Kaioshins power should relate to date. You have to take a mixture of all the feats/statements etc... You can't solely allow one feat/statement hold more weight than the others, you must blend them.

What do you think Uzuni? Give Kaioshin near MSSJ level power, while keeping his statements in line regarding the other kais, while maintaining the Z sword logic.

[Savage68]

I'd like to put him above the SSJ1's because that would explain Piccolo's reaction...however, if he was really that powerful to begin with how would you explain his fusion with Kibito?? I mean, surely, a Potara fusion would greatly multiply his power and make him more than a match for SSJ3 Goku/Kid Boo, and yet he's overlooked as if he's nothing.

Plot device. I believe Kibitoshin to be on the same general tier as Super Saiyan 3 Goku, but he wasn't important enough a character to even serve as a punching bag. Vegeta stayed behind to fight Buu, but this made no coherent sense, seeing as how he had witnessed Buu form a ki blast that was beyond Goku's reach just moments before. But he grows a pair after relocating to the Kaioshin realm, for some reason.

[uzuni]

Well, with all that said, I suppose I'll agree with p123's as they were similar to my original ones, more or less. How about Kibito, anyone have any idea as to how strong he was? From what I see, I'd put him far below 100% Freeza.

[Savage68]

So would I, only by attribute of being comparable to Gohan's normal state, which I'm sure is weaker than Freeza.

In the incipience of his match in the Budokai, Gohan thinks to himself that Kibito doesn't seem like the type that can be toppled with revealing his secret identity. This could either mean that Gohan would need to go all-out in his base form, or that Gohan's Super Saiyan form is required. It pumps up Kibito's standing in either case. Also, Goku mentions before the match takes place for Gohan to keep his guard up, so... there's that, too.

[uzuni]

Hm, would you be able to post a link of when that was said, regarding Kibito's power?

[Savage68]

Not really, since there are no English scans for me to post.

[Hellspawn28]

The Kaioshins where mention to be powerful to kill Freeza in one shoot, and he should be around Semi Perfect Cell level.

[Bussani]

Again, from the bios in Daizenshuu 7.

An old-looking man who works as Kaioshin's attendant. Though a good person, it seems that at first he was disdainful of Gohan and the other humans of the lower world, and did not trust in Super Saiyan power. His battle power is considerably high, enough to give Gohan a difficult fight as long as he wasn't a Super Saiyan.

[uzuni]

Ah, ok. Well, I suppose that confirms it then.

[Super Vegito]

The Kaioshins where mention to be powerful to kill Freeza in one shoot, and he should be around Semi Perfect Cell level.

Yeah, but who knows what form of Frieza he was talking about, since no one knew of Frieza's 3rd or final forms (let alone 100%). He was shitting bricks when Pui Pui came along, yet Vegeta was able to take him out in his base form, with no effort at all.

[p123]

Always assume full power Super Vegito. A suppression of Freeza is not Freeza's power.


Kibito ~ Android 16 / Imperfect Cell Post IMO


In Kill once again....


Gohan 900
Piccolo 850
Yakon 800
Kibito 500
Freeza 144


As you can see, I endorse the decreasing multiplier theory.

[Savage68]

Shoop, I guess it's that time again.

Yeah, but who knows what form of Freeza he was talking about, since no one knew of Freeza's 3rd or final forms (as he never had a reason to use them).

From a narrative standpoint and from an in-universe one, Kaioshin should've been citing Freeza's full-power, since the form wasn't exactly numb to the universal overseers, and... is "Freeza." The comparison would serve no purpose if it's only referring to some suppressed state that the base Saiyans could've erased back on Namek.

He was shitting bricks when Pui Pui came along, yet Vegeta was able to take him out in his base form, with no effort at all.

This means one or both of the following:

- Kaioshin was extremely cautious inside of Babidi's ship, and reasonably so, because he didn't want any energy at all to be transmitted to Buu, or even for Buu to awaken at less-than-full power, due to sloppy shockwaves.
- Vegeta's base-form strength was surprising. The Saiyans (Nappa and Vegeta) were constantly shocked at the power of those under them, but it didn't equate to an implication of inferiority.

Also, if we're to believe that Kaioshin's "big eyes, sweat drop" face was an indication of his power, we'd have to explain away his later actions, the ones that couldn't realistically apply to someone weaker than someone that's weaker than a Saiyan's normal state. This is also the crux of that "Base Saiyans > Piccolo" argument.

[p123]

It's a damn shame we don't see Kaioshin grab the Z sword, but either way, he is definitley way above the Base Saiyans. Savage's explanations for the freak out are very valid,plausible,and likely.

[Fox666]

Meh, I edited my post, I should have read the entire thread before.


I can buy Savage68 explanation.

[Bussani]

Freeza stated that no one had seen his last form before, doesn't him?

As far as he knew, but does he know there are gods watching him? Kaio certainly saw his final form, so it's completely possible that Kaioshin, being above him, knew about it too.

As far I know, Kibito isn't from the same species as Kaioshin, however doesn't hold the responsability of a Kaioshin?

Kibito is Kaioshin's attendant. He's to Kaioshin as Mr. Popo is to Kami.

[Herms]

Some people weren't sure if Piccolo's comment about him being beyond him was due to his power or position as the highest God, but the Daizenshuu seems to think it's the former.

It's definitely the former. Viz makes the line somewhat ambiguous, but in Japanese it's a pretty standard way of saying "he's way stronger than me". I guess you could still argue that Piccolo really did withdraw only because of Kaioshin's superior rank and was simply lying to Goku about a difference in strength to cover this up, but the line itself is just him saying that Kaioshin is stronger.

Somewhat amusingly, some Japanese fans on the Mugen wiki entry for Kaioshin pointed out that his Daizenshuu 7 bio just says that he's stronger than "Super Namekian Piccolo", and not specifically stronger than Piccolo was at the time. In other words, technically you could say that Kaioshin is a lot stronger than Piccolo was immediately after fusing with God, but still weaker than Piccolo was in the Boo arc, without contradicting the daizenshuu. This goes along with ignoring Piccolo's line to Goku as just a lie to cover up his real motive for withdrawing (ie suspicions about Kaioshin's identity). Personally I think this is all just twisting the facts around to deny that by the Boo arc Piccolo is basically irrelevant power-wise, only good to serve as a foil to make Kaioshin look strong in comparison.