Plot Holes?

beast mode · Post by **beast mode** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:32 pm

Michsi wrote:In the end it's the same thing.

Goku comes to a realization that Vegeta didn't.

You seem to think that getting rid of that "restless feeling" would've improved his training, but the problem lies with Vegeta not comming to the same conclusion as him. This was Goku thinking things trough.

As it was previously stated, Goku is just that gifted when it comes to fighting.

But Vegeta did come to the same conclusion after Goku explained it! He then had a whole 1 year in the RoSaT put that plan into action! And if he didn't, he would have turned Super Vegeta and killed that Cell Junior! Either he didn't, and there is a plot hole or he did, and Vegeta wasn't able to master that same state of being as well as Goku did because he doesn't have the same personality and way of looking at things the way Goku does! You don't seem to be accepting either of these two conclusions. Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?

Michsi · Post by **Michsi** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:53 pm

beast mode wrote:
Michsi wrote:In the end it's the same thing.

Goku comes to a realization that Vegeta didn't.

You seem to think that getting rid of that "restless feeling" would've improved his training, but the problem lies with Vegeta not comming to the same conclusion as him. This was Goku thinking things trough.

As it was previously stated, Goku is just that gifted when it comes to fighting.
But Vegeta did come to the same conclusion after Goku explained it! He then had a whole 1 year in the RoSaT put that plan into action! And if he didn't, he would have turned Super Vegeta and killed that Cell Junior! Either he didn't, and there is a plot hole or he did, and Vegeta wasn't able to master that same state of being as well as Goku did because he doesn't have the same personality and way of looking at things the way Goku does! You don't seem to be accepting either of these two conclusions. Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?

1. I think he was Super Vegeta when he fought Cell Jr., because to me that state was simply his improved SSJ state after the Rosat. It wasn't a new level like the Ultra Saiyan or SSJ2 , it was simply the "polished and improved" normal SSJ version.
So no plot hole here

2. You are saying he should've taken Goku's idea and done the same thing?
He might have tried and failed or e might have simply not wanted to do things Goku's way.
The end result is still the same, whatever path he chose, he didn't reach Goku's level.
You seem to try and find the reason behind it, but it's nothing more than fan speculation at this poit. I still don't see how this could be a plothole.

3. I never argue for the sake of arguing.

beast mode · Post by **beast mode** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:22 pm

Michsi wrote:1. I think he was Super Vegeta when he fought Cell Jr. nope, unless you mean just in terms of being equal to his old power/strength as Super Vegeta, not literally being transformed at the time, because to me that state was simply his improved SSJ state after the Rosat. It wasn't a new level like the Ultra Saiyan or SSJ2 , it was simply the "polished and improved" normal SSJ version. Then you are saying that he did indeed become a partial Full-Power Super Saiyan?
So no plot hole here

2. You are saying he should've taken Goku's idea and done the same thing? He definitely did if Super Saiyan is better than 'Ultra' Super Saiyan for him.
He might have tried and failed or e might have simply not wanted to do things Goku's way. He must of tried if Super Saiyan is better than USSJ
The end result is still the same, whatever path he chose, he didn't reach Goku's level. Well duh, the question is why? For no reason? Or because Vegeta is less efficient at that type of training?
You seem to try and find the reason behind it, but it's nothing more than fan speculation at this poit. I still don't see how this could be a plothole.

The only scenarios I consider plot holes are him not turning USSJ if it was still better than his Super Saiyan form, if he didn't preform Goku's training or he did and the training didn't affect him nearly as much simply because he's not as 'naturally gifted' as Goku (We know that Goku is actually massively disadvantaged from Vegeta without massive amounts of training.)

dbgtFO · Post by **dbgtFO** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:33 pm

beast mode wrote:The only scenarios I consider plot holes are him not turning USSJ if it was still better than his Super Saiyan form, if he didn't preform Goku's training or he did and the training didn't affect him nearly as much simply because he's not as 'naturally gifted' as Goku (We know that Goku is actually massively disadvantaged from Vegeta without massive amounts of training.)

The training simply didn't affect him as much as Goku, because Goku is a genius, while Vegeta is not as much. It's supported by his own admission that Goku is more gifted than he in the Buu arc.

It's not a plothole, simple as that.

Michsi · Post by **Michsi** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:22 pm

nope,

What proof do you have that he didn't.There is no phisical difference between SSJ Vegeta and the state he calls "Super Vegeta". If Super Vegeta means when his at his best, why th hell wouldn't he give it all he had when facing a far more powerful enemy. That would be like fighting Freeza in his base form when he can go Super Saiyan.

And btw the way Super Vegeta isn't really an actual level or different transformation, it's just the normal SSJ form enhanced. The Ultra-SAiyan on the other hand is.

Then you are saying that he did indeed become a partial Full-Power Super Saiyan

What is this Full-Power Super Saiyan? Again, is this a new level? Transformation?
What Goku is when fighting Cell? Because if that's it, then again, I don't see that as different level.

Well duh, the question is why? For no reason?Or because Vegeta is less efficient at that type of training?

Who knows, and frankly, I doubt that many care.
I for one think that he simply refused to apply Goku"s method simply because in doing so, he'd feel he'd somehow owe his new power to Goku. MAybe he wanted to find his own way of becomming stronger?
But again, it's nothing more than fan speculation as to what went on in that room and in his head at that time.
But just because we don't why, doesn't mean it's a plothole. It doesn't contradict anything.

The only scenarios I consider plot holes are him not turning USSJ if it was still better than his Super Saiyan form, if he didn't preform Goku's training or he did and the training didn't affect him nearly as much simply because he's not as 'naturally gifted' as Goku (We know that Goku is actually massively disadvantaged from Vegeta without massive amounts of training.)

How is that a plothole? It was proven that the USSJ form is weaker. It sacrifices speed for strength. He refused to do so the first time against Perfect Cell and it was proven to have been the right choice. Why would he do it now with Cell Jr. It would only give him a severe disadvantage.

beast mode · Post by **beast mode** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:47 pm

Michsi wrote:
nope,

What proof do you have that he didn't.There is no phisical difference between SSJ Vegeta and the state he calls "Super Vegeta". If Super Vegeta means when his at his best, why th hell wouldn't he give it all he had when facing a far more powerful enemy. That would be like fighting Freeza in his base form when he can go Super Saiyan. (That's one of the possible plot holes I've been arguing for!)

And btw the way Super Vegeta isn't really an actual level or different transformation, it's just the normal SSJ form enhanced. The Ultra-SAiyan on the other hand is.

Then you are saying that he did indeed become a partial Full-Power Super Saiyan

What is this Full-Power Super Saiyan? Again, is this a new level? Transformation?
What Goku is when fighting Cell? Because if that's it, then again, I don't see that as different level.

You seem to have no clue of what Vegeta looked like when he referred to himself as "Super Vegeta. When I said "Super Vegeta" I was obviously referring to "Ultra Super Saiyan," as that's what he calls himself in that form. He never called himself Super Vegeta when he wasn't in it. "Ultra Super Saiyan" is a fan term so I didn't use it.

Full-Power Super Saiyan is a Super Saiyan that's become fully accustomed to Super Saiyan. When you complete the training you become much more powerful than "Ultra Super Saiyan," "Ultra Super Saiyan 2" however is still more powerful but the speed is lame. So no, it's not a visible transformation. It is a different 'level' of power though.

Full-Power Super Saiyan Goku > Ultra Super Saiyan Vegeta > Super Saiyan Vegeta = Cell Jr. (plot hole) (Vegeta could power up to beat this Cell Jr. but doesn't for no reason. This outcome is if he didn't do any Full-Power Super Saiyan training.)

or

Full-Power Super Saiyan Goku > "Full-Power" Super Saiyan Vegeta = Cell Jr. (not a plot hole) (Vegeta tried becoming a Full-Power Super Saiyan, overcoming "Ultra Super Saiyan" but not mastering Super Saiyan enough to be as strong as Goku.)

or

Full-Power Super Saiyan Goku > Full Power Super Saiyan Vegeta = Cell Jr. (plot hole) (Vegeta did become a Full-Power Super Saiyan, but Goku is still stronger because... well, that's what makes this a plot hole!)

edit:

Michsi wrote:
The only scenarios I consider plot holes are him not turning USSJ if it was still better than his Super Saiyan form, if he didn't preform Goku's training or he did and the training didn't affect him nearly as much simply because he's not as 'naturally gifted' as Goku (We know that Goku is actually massively disadvantaged from Vegeta without massive amounts of training.)
How is that a plothole? It was proven that the USSJ form is weaker. It sacrifices speed for strength. He refused to do so the first time against Perfect Cell and it was proven to have been the right choice. Why would he do it now with Cell Jr. It would only give him a severe disadvantage.

You seem to have no clue as to what the different Super Saiyan transformations are...

http://www.daizex.com/guides/transformations/saiyan/

dbgtFO · Post by **dbgtFO** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:58 pm

beast mode wrote:Full-Power Super Saiyan Goku > Full Power Super Saiyan Vegeta = Cell Jr. (plot hole) (Vegeta did become a Full-Power Super Saiyan, but Goku is still stronger because... well, that's what makes this a plot hole!)

It's a plothole simply because Goku ends up stronger than Vegeta?
You make no sense...

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:06 pm

Let's clear this up a little bit. Here's all the "improved" versions of Super Saiyan, for sake of universal reference

- "Grade 2 / Second Grade" - This is the form which Vegeta used against Semiperfect Cell and within he referred to himself as "Super Vegeta." It is attained when the Saiyan meditates and trains to push himself "beyond Super Saiyan," and is a step above the normal form. The user's Ki is pumped throughout the body to inflate the muscles and greatly increase power. Any loss of speed from the bulky muscles is outweighed by the gain from the higher Ki level.

- "Grade 3 / Third Grade" - This is the same "path" of power as Grade 2, taken a step further, which Trunks used against Perfect Cell. The Ki pumped throughout the Saiyan's body is taken to the extreme, greatly increasing their raw power even higher above Grade 2. However, at this point the inflated muscles are a detriment, greatly reducing the Saiyan's speed. Furthermore, the form is a big energy-waster.

- "Full-Power" Super Saiyan - This is the perfected form of Super Saiyan which was first exhibited by Goku and Gohan after their training in the Room of Spirit and Time. This is not actually a separate or higher transformation than regular ol' Super Saiyan, and is not said to grant any more or less power. Rather, it is when the Saiyan trains himself to be so accustomed to the Super Saiyan state that he gains total mastery over it. He exhibits perfect control and is able to move and relax freely, whereas normally Super Saiyan takes considerable effort to use or even maintain. The term "full-power" comes from the fact that, thanks to this control, the Saiyan can fight to their fullest without unnecessarily wasting Ki. Presumably, something about staying within this perfected form allows the Saiyan to get much more than usual out of their training.

beast mode · Post by **beast mode** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:09 pm

dbgtFO wrote:
beast mode wrote:Full-Power Super Saiyan Goku > Full Power Super Saiyan Vegeta = Cell Jr. (plot hole) (Vegeta did become a Full-Power Super Saiyan, but Goku is still stronger because... well, that's what makes this a plot hole!)
It's a plothole simply because Goku ends up stronger than Vegeta?
You make no sense...

They are equal as Super Saiyans before any RoSaT training, Vegeta could be stronger. Goku as reached his limit as far as upping his strength via conventional methods after his stint in the RoSaT. Goku thinks that Vegeta could still improve himself a bit if he went into the RoSaT for another year. Then the only thing keeping them from being equals at this point is Goku's 'Full-Power' state and Vegeta's lack thereof. If Vegeta truly became a Full-Power Super Saiyan there shouldn't be such a big gap between him and Goku, same with Trunks.

Unless Goku being stronger with the same training even though he's genetically programmed to be weaker than Vegeta makes sense to you.

Also, Kaboom, if Grade 2 is really stronger than "Full-Power Super Saiyan" then Vegeta should have no doubt used it against the Cell Jr. and Goku should have at least used it with his Kamehameha.

Michsi · Post by **Michsi** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:12 pm

So again, it was problem of therminology and this one goes on me.

When I say USSJ, I automatically think of Trunks in his Incredible Hulk moment.

I'm lookig at the Cell vs. everybody fight and I see Vegeta just as buffed up as his USSJ. So how can you tell?

beast mode · Post by **beast mode** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:20 pm

Post by **VegettoEX** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:23 pm

An image without context and explanation is not a worthwhile post. Please be sure to contribute to the discussion beyond that.

dbgtFO · Post by **dbgtFO** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:24 pm

beast mode wrote:Unless Goku being stronger with the same training even though he's genetically programmed to be weaker than Vegeta makes sense to you.

1. Vegeta had surpassed Goku in the beginning of the androids Arc, probably due to training like a madman with up to 300 times Earth's Gravity, while Goku has normal gravity and two guys extremely weak compared to him, so even though Vegeta trained by himself, he managed to improve more than Goku.

2. Goku is the guy, who came up with the idea of making SSJ their normal states, while Vegeta in his first trip focused on power. Goku also has Gohan as a sparring partner, who after going SSJ probably was enough to push the both of them day in and day out making bigger leaps in power than Vegeta who on his second trip in the RoSaT trains alone which obviously can't benefit him much.

I believe it's completely valid, that Vegeta ended up weaker than Goku, even though he trained more, because 1: Vegeta wouldn't possibly know Goku and Gohan's training methods, so Vegeta's methods could simply be less giving and 2: Vegeta trained alone and I think training alone uder the same conditions as Goku and Gohan can't possibly give him the same gains in power, as they did, because it's just better, when you're two. And maybe all ready being that powerful made it even harder to make huge leaps in power explaining why he didn't surpass Goku as he thought he would.

I don't see how it could be a plothole.

beast mode · Post by **beast mode** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:27 pm

VegettoEX wrote:An image without context and explanation is not a worthwhile post. Please be sure to contribute to the discussion beyond that.

Michsi wrote:So again, it was problem of therminology and this one goes on me.

When I say USSJ, I automatically think of Trunks in his Incredible Hulk moment.

I'm lookig at the Cell vs. everybody fight and I see Vegeta just as buffed up as his USSJ. So how can you tell?

I thought the post above provided plenty of context.

For comparison:

Michsi · Post by **Michsi** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:29 pm

Here he is actualy powered up and in fighting mode.

I don't see the difference.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:30 pm

beast mode wrote:Also, Kaboom, if Grade 2 is really stronger than "Full-Power Super Saiyan" then Vegeta should have no doubt used it against the Cell Jr. and Goku should have at least used it with his Kamehameha.

Aside from that, if Vegeta saw what kind of power Goku displayed after emerging and going down his "full-power" route, then I'm willing to bet he'd have already tried to do the same thing himself. The thing is, though, that he'd have a lot of work ahead of him, as SSjG2 and FPSSj are polar opposites. The former is trying to pump more power into your body than it can handle, while the latter is getting yourself accustomed to what you already have.

To achieve the latter is to abandon and lose the former, because they are incompatible with each other. But once you start over from the basics with Super Saiyan (which is how Goku actually described the FPSSj training), that mastery will eventually leave you prepared to go "beyond" the right way.

So the reason Vegeta didn't use SSjG2 in the Cell Games is because he no longer had it, and had already started down the much more fruitful FPSSj path instead. But at the same time, SSjG2 doesn't actually "disappear." It just eventually turns into something else: Super Saiyan 2.

Yes, I have given this way more thought than it is probably due.

Post by **VegettoEX** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:31 pm

Where on Earth do you people get these terrible manga images from...?

Yikes, if I had the time, I'd go through and replace garbage like that with the appropriate kanzenban versions

.

Michsi · Post by **Michsi** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:34 pm

VegettoEX wrote:Where on Earth do you people get these terrible manga images from...?

Yikes, if I had the time, I'd go through and replace garbage like that with the appropriate kanzenban versions .

I'd scan my manga if I could but mine are in german and I'd hate to ruin them

I have no choice but to use what I can find on the net.

But yes, the quality is crappy...

beast mode · Post by **beast mode** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:34 pm

The shoulders and hair are definitely "Ultra" Super Saiyan. Nevermind!

Post by **Herms** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:35 pm

VegettoEX wrote:Where on Earth do you people get these terrible manga images from...?

I think they're from some sort of evil mirror universe where the manga was printed by some 5-year old with Microsoft Paint.

Kanzenshuu

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