Fusion multiplier

[Piccolo Daimao]

Implying that you know Freeza's power better than his own brother, is just meh...

I know Freeza's power the same as his brother - that Freeza spends all his time at 530,000. Goku at 3,000,000 could easily kill Freeza on surprise alone in any of Freeza's first three forms.

Even without surprise, Goku could kill Freeza in any of his first three forms with his own power.

[p123]

It's a bit silly for Cooler to say that Goku could defeat Freeza when he couldn't. Beating Freeza while he is suppressed, and then Freeza still having the ability to power up and stomp you, is a very weak excuse for Goku to be so weak.

Base Goku is Movie 5 should be around SSJ Goku on Namek. Beating suppressed forms, is just silly...

[Fox666]

Why are you bashing him? It's just a filler plot-hole.

It's the same as Goku fighting Pikkon without Super Saiyan. Or that weird fight of Videl with Broly...

[lash]

It's a bit silly for Cooler to say that Goku could defeat Freeza when he couldn't. Beating Freeza while he is suppressed, and then Freeza still having the ability to power up and stomp you, is a very weak excuse for Goku to be so weak.

Base Goku is Movie 5 should be around SSJ Goku on Namek. Beating suppressed forms, is just silly...

Perhaps, but it's still beating Freeza. Cooler didn't specify how he thinks Goku did it, just that he thinks he could have.
Arguing "how" is trekking into assumption territory. And without any further swaying evidence, means all branched opinions hold equal ground.

[Kaboom]

From a broader, more artistic and drama-centric standpoint, the whole movie's plot is a parallel to the Freeza vs Goku fight from the series itself. So I highly doubt they meant to imply anything outrageous like this whole "stronger than his former SSj self" idea. It'd be wildly different from the series for no reason.

If anything, having Goku even fight in his base form at all was just to build dramatic tension, and make the Super Saiyan transformation and its subsequent Coola-pwnage all the more rewarding. Hence why him not transforming right away shouldn't really be considered a plot hole, either. It'd be a boring movie if the hero just wiped all the bad guys out from the very beginning.

[Fox666]

It'd be a boring movie if the hero just wiped all the bad guys out from the very beginning.

That's still a plot-hole... =P

I really recommend to not take serious or even try any logic with filler battles. They aren't supposed to make sense.

[p123]

The thing is, it's literally copy paste from Freeza Saga. And with a statement like Base Goku > Freeza, it's a bit harder to not accept the logic. Goku got a 33x zenkai on Namek, and if he got another 33x zenkai on Earth against Cooler, it would be the equivilant of what I'm implying.

33x boost is not that much, since we just had seen that a little while earlier...

[Fox666]

it's a bit harder to not accept the logic

That's what I am saying, there is no logic behind it.

The writers simply put a generic statement regarding strength, and didn't realized it doesn't make any sense if you look at which state Goku was. But this isn't surprising, usually fillers don't build an appropriate balance of power. How many times we have seen Goku fighting an opponent equally in his normal state and as a Super Saiyan in fillers?

You are gonna get anywhere trying to make it works. Worst than that, having a hated discussion for such a pointless subject...

[lash]

The thing is, it's literally copy paste from Freeza Saga. And with a statement like Base Goku > Freeza, it's a bit harder to not accept the logic. Goku got a 33x zenkai on Namek, and if he got another 33x zenkai on Earth against Cooler, it would be the equivilant of what I'm implying.

33x boost is not that much, since we just had seen that a little while earlier...

Cooler stated Goku was stated to be able to "beat freeza" after taking his death beams(and again later on)...before he ever even fought cooler. No near death powerup could have occurred at that point. In other words, going by your viewpoint...Base Goku was stronger then 100% Freeza at the start of the movie. Is that reasonable? Probably not.

[Kaboom]

I think he means after Goku ate the Senzu in the cave and recovered from that beam he took to the back.

[Rocketman]

It's a bit silly for Cooler to say that Goku could defeat Freeza when he couldn't. Beating Freeza while he is suppressed, and then Freeza still having the ability to power up and stomp you

But he wouldn't have that ability.

Because he would be dead.

[lash]

I think he means after Goku ate the Senzu in the cave and recovered from that beam he took to the back.

Yeah I know. I'm saying before that moment, Cooler had already made the comment that Goku really might have been able to beat Freeza.

[p123]

Yes Cooler knew Goku beat Freeza already. Is it only the funi dub that has one of the henchmen say that he wants to beat the guy who beat Freeza? That was just horribly stupid...

I think Goku got a zenkai... His huge aura, and his ability to straight tank Sauza, yet previously fought pretty evenly against the 3 henchmen, lead me to believe a zenkai occured. Goku getting a zenkai the same as he did against Freeza, is not unreasonable...

SSJs not getting zenkais at this point was not even suggested at all in the manga, so I'm not sure why that would be a reason to hold it back..


You gotta think the rate of increases in the Freeza Saga, has to play a part in the movie. It's quite possible that Goku is much stronger now. They were going through a HAX period in the Freeza Saga, making a movie, that happened around that time, generally would consists of similiar logic..

[Kaboom]

What in the movie even suggests that Goku got a healing boost at all, as opposed to simply "getting serious?" There's nothing of the kind noted by anyone within the film.

[p123]

When Goku was near death, took a Senzu, and then showed a tremendously greater power than he previously did...


What's the issue with Pikkon vs Goku, I think my explanation covered that rather well...

[Kaboom]

An interesting thing to note about Goku's power in Movie 5... whatever he was showing before was enough for a Scouter to pick up and measure without any trouble. Only after emerging from the cave at full-power did Sauzer's scouter blow up.

So what was the highest power we ever saw successfully read in the manga by a Scouter before breaking? It was Vegeta powering up against first-form Freeza, right? His power at the time is considered something like 250,000-300,000, right? That seems like an appropriate level to be easily holding off a trio of opponents each between 150-200 thousand like Goku was.

[lash]

It didn't explode because Sauza stated Goku was raising his battle power in bursts. Parallel to what Goku did against the Ginyu Force.

[CatouttaHell]

When Goku was near death, took a Senzu, and then showed a tremendously greater power than he previously did...

Goku before the Senzu was suppressed heavily. It's only after the eye ray incident did Goku briefly get serious (was too late at that point though) and Coola realised he could have beaten Freeza. Until then he was still suppressed to the level of Coola's minions (less than 200,000.)

Honestly, I'm such a Strong Base Saiya-jins supporter that I even have Base Goten multiple times stronger than Piccolo in the Boo Arc, and even I think Movie 5 Base Goku > 100% Freeza is ridiculous now.

[Rocketman]

Honestly, I'm such a Strong Base Saiya-jins supporter that I even have Base Goten multiple times stronger than Piccolo in the Boo Arc

So why did Buu take on Piccolo's appearance when Gotenks defused?

[CatouttaHell]

So why did Buu take on Piccolo's appearance when Gotenks defused?

Why did Boo take on Dai Kaioshin-sama's appearance even though the South Kaioshin-sama was stated to be the strongest? Neither Goten, nor Trunks, nor Piccolo were worth a damn to Boo in terms of power. He only had the former two absorbed because of their fusion. With them defused they were useless, but Piccolo was still very useful for his intelligence and since Piccolo had a bigger impact on the current Boo he was the one Boo took after. This is very similiar to Fat Boo taking after Dai Kaioshin-sama because he had a bigger impact on him despite him not being his strongest absorption. Of course, it's also possible that due to being part of a SSjin 3 fusion and having defused they had very little energy left and even Piccolo was above them for that time.