How strong is Kaioshin and Piccolo ( Boo saga )

[Super Vegetto]

To add to some of the discussion:

Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P5.1-3
Kaioshin: “At any rate, it was a big miscalculation that Dabra is here. A combo of Babidi and Dabra…”
Vegeta: “Are you trying to say that our chances of victory have fallen considerably?”
Kaioshin: “…”

The only one here to have doubts is Kaioshin. This is of course understandable since Kaioshin mentions that the most dangerous magic Babidi has is his Majin seal.
Otherwise, he is pretty harmless. With Dabra, it will become harder to come close to Babidi.
But Kaioshin doesn't know of the capabilities of the Saiyajins yet, even though he saw SSJ2 Gohan and felt his power.
So Kaioshin is an idiot.

Chapter: 459 (DBZ 265), P2.2-3
Badidi: “How about it, Dabra? Just to be sure, do you have confidence that you can defeat that Earthling [Gohan]?”
Dabra: “Naturally. I fought him a little bit before, after all. There’s no doubt that I can take care of trash like that.”

One of those trash (Gohan) have Dabra a pretty good fight. Dabra didn't know if Gohan could get stronger (Goku advised Gohan to use his rage to win).
So Gohan was truly stronger than Dabra. He just had to become angrier and he would have the upper hand.

Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.1-3
Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co.
Dabra: “Seems they’re trying to hide from us…In total…there are 7. We can’t use Kaioshin and Kibito’s energy…But 3 of them seem to have marvelous energy…”
Babidi: “Looks like it. It seems that we’ll get more than enough energy from just those 3…Kuhihihi…To think that we’d be able to revive Majin Boo so quickly…”

Marvelous energy could mean pretty much a power equivalent to Yakon's power. If they fought them long enough, they would fill the meter up.
But they were proven wrong later on.

Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.4
Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co.
Babidi: “Get rid of the trash besides those 3 [Goku, Gohan, Vegeta], then return to the spaceship right away. That way, I think those 3 will fly into a rage and follow you inside for sure.”

Again, same as what I wrote above. They were proven deadly wrong moments later.

Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P3.2-4
Goku: “Is he amazing?...”
Kaioshin: “Of course…He’s the king of the Dark Demon Realm, after all…One of you people is probably the #1 in this world, but in the other world, the world of demons, Dabra is absolutely on top…”
Kuririn: “Th-the king of the Demon Realm, you say?...There’s a world like that?...S-so he’s probably an incredibly dangerous opponent, right…!?”

And Piccolo Daimao was also a feared demon once and feared by Kuririn too. So that doesn't say much.
And the most dangerous thing about Dabra was found out to be his spit.

Chapter: 409 (DBZ 215), P8.2-4
Context: after Cell powers up
Goku: “S-so we finally get to see Cell fight at full power”
Kuririn: “This ki is so astounding, it’s like the entire Earth is shaking.”
Gohan: “What’s the big deal?”

Gohan's comment clearly indicates that Cell is much, much weaker than him.[/quote]


This is not called ignorant. You cant agree with something you see diffrent.

He saw SSJ2 Gohan power and he thinks they cant win. When you talk like that it seams that SSJ Gohan = Dabura because Gohan knows how to fight and Kaioshin didnt knowed that he knows martial arts. Power is all the matter and Kaioshin saw Gohans powers which he comperes with Dabura, because he knows how strong is Dabura.

Gohan was never angry and i dont know why you say he was angry and that he should becomed angrier. You do relize Goku sad that Gohan didnt complitly lost because it was Dabura > SSJ2 Gohan. What he means Gohans true power anger > Dabura.

Gohan only tryed to get angry against Buus shell but he couldnt draw strenght from anger like against Cell.

Marvelous energy means that he can sence power. Energy is what makes fighter strong, not his performance.

First of all Goku compered him with FP Perfect Cell. He sad that they would be afraid of him 7 years ago. With just that he stated that Dabura is acutaly FP Perfect Cell level and little stronger because of magic.

Sry man but what ? Everyone and overall Cell knows that his powers in sencing is greater than SSJ2 Gohan tranformed. Gohan hides his ki and no one even noticed and overall Cell didnt noticed Gohans power.
Why you think he wonders of beeing damaged by 2 punches ? He couldnt sence ki because Gohan was hiding it.


Sry for by bad grammar but i let people to talk and i ask why they think diffrent. After that we get in discussion and i should say that you are right, and i am wrong ?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Sry man but what ? Everyone and overall Cell knows that his powers in sencing is greater than SSJ2 Gohan tranformed. Gohan hides his ki and no one even noticed and overall Cell didnt noticed Gohans power.

Cell's power was terrifying for the others, not for Gohan. No one was afraid that Cell could kill Gohan, they were afraid that he would destroy the Earth. Nothing indicates that Gohan was hiding his power. And besides, shouldn't SSJ2 Gohan in Cell Games be at full power from the beginning? He had released his hidden powers.

[Super Vegetto]

Sry man but what ? Everyone and overall Cell knows that his powers in sencing is greater than SSJ2 Gohan tranformed. Gohan hides his ki and no one even noticed and overall Cell didnt noticed Gohans power.

Cell's power was terrifying for the others, not for Gohan. No one was afraid that Cell could kill Gohan, they were afraid that he would destroy the Earth. Nothing indicates that Gohan was hiding his power. And besides, shouldn't SSJ2 Gohan in Cell Games be at full power from the beginning? He had released his hidden powers.

He transformed and got boost from anger, not at 100% from beginig. I dont see why is Cell so confident in taking down Gohan after powering up. Its pretty clear that Gohan is hiding his SSJ2 powers, btw Cell is not idiot and Kaioshin is not idiot in sencing powers because they actualy can sence.

Dabura is Perfect Cell level and FPSSJ Gohan doesnt stand a chance against that level.

[VegettoEX]

If you've already decided upon what you want to believe, then what's the point of asking other folks what they think and not taking into consideration what they reply back to you with?

[Super Vegetto]

If you've already decided upon what you want to believe, then what's the point of asking other folks what they think and not taking into consideration what they reply back to you with?

Not realy. The question is how strong is Kaioshin and Piccolo, but because someone has diffrent opinion they make statment like Kaioshin cant sence power level good, Kaioshin probably beeing weaker than base saiyans because he is scared of Pui-Pui and others, or Gohan beeing SSJ against Dabura.

If Kaioshin is weak and idiot in sencing power + that he is weaker than Base saiyans because he was scared of babidis slaves is why this doesnt work.
I already sad that but everyone thinks that Kaioshin is weak and that he was acutaly scared of Babidis slaves and not his magic and who knows what else.
From what i heard Kaioshin is a scared little kid that is scared of Pui-pui and it makes him much weaker which doesnt make sence.

Then there is statement that Gohan Kaioshin saw > Gohan Kibito saw yet its again > Kaioshin who is idiot in sencing powers.

We go by what is stated and Kaioshin stated that he can sence power on world tournament and that he saw Gohan stronger than Gohan on world tournament, right ?

[Godo]

Not realy. The question is how strong is Kaioshin and Piccolo,

About that question, the main idea is that Piccolo is weaker than Kaioshin since Herms' translation pretty much means that.
Although I don't agree with that myself.
But then it doesn't matter how strong they are. They are not in the story to fight.

but because someone has diffrent opinion they make statment like Kaioshin cant sence power level good, Kaioshin probably beeing weaker than base saiyans because he is scared of Pui-Pui and others, or Gohan beeing SSJ against Dabura.

If Kaioshin is weak and idiot in sencing power + that he is weaker than Base saiyans because he was scared of babidis slaves is why this doesnt work.
I already sad that but everyone thinks that Kaioshin is weak and that he was acutaly scared of Babidis slaves and not his magic and who knows what else.
From what i heard Kaioshin is a scared little kid that is scared of Pui-pui and it makes him much weaker which doesnt make sence.

Then there is statement that Gohan Kaioshin saw > Gohan Kibito saw yet its again > Kaioshin who is idiot in sencing powers.

We go by what is stated and Kaioshin stated that he can sence power on world tournament and that he saw Gohan stronger than Gohan on world tournament, right ?

I think that with those quotes, you are pretty much summing up why we think Kaioshin can't sense power well.
And also, it makes sense for Kaioshin to be scared like a little boy too, since Buu once killed all of his Kaioshin friends.

[Saiga]

The evidence against Gohan being SS2 isn't very credible. BT3 makes mistakes with other character's profiles and can't be trusted, Daizenshuu 2 makes an error about Gohan's Ultimate Warrior form, so it's also unreliable. The art from the manga implies he isn't and the story implies he should be, and Daizenshuu 7 isn't contradicted. I think it's much safer to say he's a SS2.

As for Kaioshin and Piccolo, Kaioshin is stronger. He's stated to be stronger. Piccolo has no feats over him. Why argue otherwise?

I don't think Kaioshin's actions in the spaceship show that the base Saiyans are stronger than him. He's scared because of Dabra/Boo and unnerved by their carefree attitude. I also believe that the Z fighters keep their power suppressed most of the time, like Goku on Namek and Piccolo against #20, which would lead them to be underestimated even by those who can sense ki.

[Super Vegetto]

The evidence against Gohan being SS2 isn't very credible. BT3 makes mistakes with other character's profiles and can't be trusted, Daizenshuu 2 makes an error about Gohan's Ultimate Warrior form, so it's also unreliable. The art from the manga implies he isn't and the story implies he should be, and Daizenshuu 7 isn't contradicted. I think it's much safer to say he's a SS2.

As for Kaioshin and Piccolo, Kaioshin is stronger. He's stated to be stronger. Piccolo has no feats over him. Why argue otherwise?

I don't think Kaioshin's actions in the spaceship show that the base Saiyans are stronger than him. He's scared because of Dabra/Boo and unnerved by their carefree attitude. I also believe that the Z fighters keep their power suppressed most of the time, like Goku on Namek and Piccolo against #20, which would lead them to be underestimated even by those who can sense ki.

Well finaly someone agrees that Gohan is made like SSJ and statments are saying that he is SSJ2.
Also for Kaioshin. Piccolo even stated that he is stronger than him and if Kaioshin is scared it doesnt mean that he is weak, or weaker than Piccolo. Like i already sad he is extra carefull but saiyans are saiyans.

I dont know if you go by Full power Perfect Cell > Initial SSJ2 Kid Gohan ( enraged ) because i found this quote :

Chapter: 229 (DBZ 35), P3.4, P4.2
Context: as Vegeta powers up
Goku: “What ki!!! It’s as if the entire Earth is trembling!!!”
Goku: “This is just like a typhoon…!!”

Perfect Cell made entire Earth shaking with his ki. That means he surppased Gohan and he even acts confident infront of Gohan.
Its realy logical that Gohan hides his power, until this :

http://comic.dragonballcn.com:1080/list ... -1bODY.jpg

http://comic.dragonballcn.com:1080/list ... -yHh8a.jpg

Cell is wondering why is he so much damaged, yet Gohan is clearly not even trying. ( Its pretty obvious that Gohan isnt 100% from start and that he incrised his ki with every punch so that Cell cant notice).

[FNF]

Kaioshin- Weaker than the base Saiyans.

Piccolo- Somewhat stronger than 50% Goku(Cell games).

That's how I see it.

[Super Vegetto]

Kaioshin- Weaker than the base Saiyans.

Piccolo- Somewhat stronger than 50% Goku(Cell games).

That's how I see it.

Well Kaioshin stoped SSJ2 Teen Gohan with his powers. I dont see how could he possibly be under base saiyans if he managed to do that with his powers.

Piccolo states that his and the Supreme Kai's powers are dimensions apart. His original Japanese line is "Chigai-sugiru... jigen ga..." ("Our dimensions... are too different"; this is the same thing Tien Shinhan says about Super Saiyan Goku in the Androids Saga). The Daizenshuu 7 goes further and states that the Supreme Kai possesses strength "far superior to the Super Namekian Piccolo".

But i am not wondering if you think like that, because from as far as i seen everyone thinks like that.

[FNF]

Kaioshin- Weaker than the base Saiyans.

Piccolo- Somewhat stronger than 50% Goku(Cell games).

That's how I see it.

Well Kaioshin stoped SSJ2 Teen Gohan with his powers. I dont see how could he possibly be under base saiyans if he managed to do that with his powers.

Piccolo states that his and the Supreme Kai's powers are dimensions apart. His original Japanese line is "Chigai-sugiru... jigen ga..." ("Our dimensions... are too different"; this is the same thing Tenshinhan Shinhan says about Super Saiyan Goku in the Androids Saga). The Daizenshuu 7 goes further and states that the Supreme Kai possesses strength "far superior to the Super Namekian Piccolo".

But i am not wondering if you think like that, because from as far as i seen everyone thinks like that.

They are paralysis arts. Nothing more than a cheap parlor trick. Chaozu could paralyze Goku at the 22nd budokai as well with presumably weaker paralysis arts so that means nothing.
The fact of the matter is that Kaioshin was in awe of the Saiyans after Vegeta's battle with PuiPui.

Piccolo simply assumed that since he was the Dai Kaio (then he later turns out to be the Kaioshin) that he was going to be seriously strong. There was no Ki sensing involved whatsoever.

Context: as Piccolo and Kaioshin's match begins
Vegeta: “We’ll finally know: just how much is his battle power, which we haven’t even been able to estimate?...”

Goku: “That much, Piccolo?...”
Piccolo: “Yeah…Our dimensions…are too different…”
Kuririn: “Yo-you’re kidding, right? Stop joking around! I-I’ve got to fight him next.”

Piccolo's rating of Kaioshin was nothing more than an 'estimate'. No one else vcould even guess how strong Kaioshin was.

Then later on when Kaioshin was getting beaten up by Boo;

Context: Piccolo wants to go rescue Kaioshin from Boo
Kuririn: “…Control yourself…I know how you feel, but you’ve got to control yourself…! Frankly, even you aren’t any match for him…absolutely not…”

So now 'even' Piccolo can't beat Boo. Krillin's certainly treating Piccolo as if he was the stronger of the two.

Vegeta even alludes to Piccolo's estimation of Kaioshin being down to his 'nature' as the Kaioshin;

Vegeta: “By his nature, Kaioshin is supposed to be someone tremendous, but have you ever once thought that he was incredible? Quite the opposite, it's Kaioshin who’s been bewildered…Majin Boo is fearsome from Kaioshin’s perspective, but from ours he’s not so much…”

[Super Vegetto]

Babidi rate saiyans above Piccolo. Dabura says that even with Kaioshin they cant beat him.

How did Babidi calculated that saiyans have much more power then anyone on the cliff ?

Same thing Piccolo knowed Kaioshin > him.

But i opened another topic for discussion about Kaioshins strenght so put every evidence for Kaioshins strenght so i can see on what level is he.

[Kaboom]

But i opened another topic for discussion about Kaioshins strenght so put every evidence for Kaioshins strenght so i can see on what level is he.

There's really no need for that. This thread is already about, in a large part, Kaioshin's power compared to other characters. A spin-off thread is unnecessary at this point.

[FNF]

Babidi rate saiyans above Piccolo. Dabura says that even with Kaioshin they cant beat him.

How did Babidi calculated that saiyans have much more power then anyone on the cliff ?

Same thing Piccolo knowed Kaioshin > him.

But i opened another topic for discussion about Kaioshins strenght so put every evidence for Kaioshins strenght so i can see on what level is he.

Babidi said that Kaioshin, Piccolo, Krillin and Kibito were all weaker than the Saiyans. That's all.

No, Piccolo was like 'omg he da Dai Kaioz. He must be da shiz'.

As Kaboom said there really was no reason to make another topic.

[Super Vegetto]

Ok this i what i think but ofc other will also rank him in powers :

Eastern Supreme Kai has very few fighting scenes, and as a result his exact power is not clearly demonstrated. It is clear, however, that he is much more powerful than Freeza, due to his statement of all the Supreme Kais being able to defeat Freeza in one blow, yet not be able to kill Buu. It is also known that he is more powerful than his servant Kibito. In the original Japanese manga, Piccolo states that his and the Supreme Kai's powers are dimensions apart. His original Japanese line is "Chigai-sugiru... jigen ga..." ("Our dimensions... are too different"; this is the same thing Tenshinhan Shinhan says about Super Saiyan Goku in the Androids Saga). The Daizenshuu 7 goes further and states that the Supreme Kai possesses strength "far superior to the Super Namekian Piccolo".

However, Supreme Kai shows signs of weakness, as he is amazed at the powers of Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan. He is also scared of Dabura's power, even prior to Dabura becoming Babidi's servant. The Eastern Supreme Kai also states that his power was lower than that of any of the other Supreme Kais (apart from Old Kai).

I have him above Base Saiyans or base Goku and above Piccolo :






So where you rank him ?

[dprez]

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P4.4-6
Goku: “Ah! Wait, Gohan. I have 2 more senzu; you should eat 1. You used up a lot of stamina earlier. [ ] Get angry, Gohan…Remember how you got angry and fought Cell, and draw out all of the power you have. If you do that, you won’t lose to anyone in the entire world! Not to anyone…


- When Gohan got angry and fought Cell, he became a ssj2, and Goku specifically tells him about that moment. Drawing out all the power he has I would assume would be his ssj2 form. He was ssj2 at the tournament, but that was after getting very angry at Videl's savage beating, as she surely was nearing death if nobody stopped Spopovitch. For some reason, he did not appear like this anymore after getting his energy drained and then healed by Kibito.


Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P3.1-2
Context: as Gohan remembers Goku’s advice to get angry
Gohan: “I-I am angry…! I’m angry, but…[it’s not] like it was ba-back then…”


- It's not like it was. His power is not like it was, and he's not angry like he was before against Cell. His super saiyan power also seams to not even be ssj2, like Vegeta and Goku are on the adjacent page.


Chapter: 460 (DBZ 266), P10.2-3
Context: after Boo seems to be dead on arrival
Kaioshin: “Goku and Vegeta are probably having a roughly even fight…I’ll pin Babidi down. After that, if you can manage to defeat Dabra, then Babidi’s scheme will be completely wiped out! So then! Now’s the time to get angry, like Goku said! Get angry and show me your true power! Gohan, peace is almost at hand!”


- I believe this to be Gohan ascending to his ssj2 form.


Chapter: 461 (DBZ 267), P3.5-7
Context: after Kaioshin says they must run from Boo
Gohan: “…Is that so?...He really does have tremendous ki, but…It doesn’t seem like so much so that there’s nothing I can do…[ ] …If I can only put out all of my true power…”


- If only Gohan can go ssj2. His true power that he has yet to achieve seams at this point to be ssj2, as he still has yet, since first shown super saiyan against Dabura, to appear as such.


Chapter: 460 (DBZ 266), P4.1-5
Context: before Gohan fires the Kamehameha at Boo’s ball
Gohan: “An-anyhow, he's reached full power, so…at the very least…Uaaaah! I’ll offer this much resistance!”


- At one point I recall this quote getting confused with " I've reached full power", as in, Gohan could have been ssj2. Clearly this is not the case. Here he says this much like at least this must resistance when there's now nothing left to loose, and like it's not his true power but "at the very least" he'll attack with this much power.


So where exactly in the story does it imply Gohan was ssj2 against Dabura and Boo? Goku and Vegeta's comments work just fine if Gohan was fpssj against Dabura and they were just comparing him to his fpssj Kid self that fought Cell before becoming ssj2. It literally makes no difference, and yet there's a reasonable doubt when he's clearly not a ssj2 like he was early that day or like Goku and Vegeta were one page away. I know a bit off-topic, but not really, because this conversation by the OP always leads back to this so I'm just curious. Besides the guide book 7 entry (which came out long before the manga was created, and that of which I still believe to be a mistake, one Toriyama wouldn't be capable of catching by then) , why think Gohan has to be ssj2 for the story to make sense? I seriously don't get it...

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Besides the guide book 7 entry (which came out long before the manga was created

Eh... what?

[FNF]

Besides the guide book 7 entry (which came out long before the manga was created

Eh... what?

He meant 'which came out long after'.

[Super Vegetto]

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P4.4-6
Goku: “Ah! Wait, Gohan. I have 2 more senzu; you should eat 1. You used up a lot of stamina earlier. [ ] Get angry, Gohan…Remember how you got angry and fought Cell, and draw out all of the power you have. If you do that, you won’t lose to anyone in the entire world! Not to anyone…


- When Gohan got angry and fought Cell, he became a ssj2, and Goku specifically tells him about that moment. Drawing out all the power he has I would assume would be his ssj2 form. He was ssj2 at the tournament, but that was after getting very angry at Videl's savage beating, as she surely was nearing death if nobody stopped Spopovitch. For some reason, he did not appear like this anymore after getting his energy drained and then healed by Kibito.


Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P3.1-2
Context: as Gohan remembers Goku’s advice to get angry
Gohan: “I-I am angry…! I’m angry, but…[it’s not] like it was ba-back then…”


- It's not like it was. His power is not like it was, and he's not angry like he was before against Cell. His super saiyan power also seams to not even be ssj2, like Vegeta and Goku are on the adjacent page.


Chapter: 460 (DBZ 266), P10.2-3
Context: after Boo seems to be dead on arrival
Kaioshin: “Goku and Vegeta are probably having a roughly even fight…I’ll pin Babidi down. After that, if you can manage to defeat Dabra, then Babidi’s scheme will be completely wiped out! So then! Now’s the time to get angry, like Goku said! Get angry and show me your true power! Gohan, peace is almost at hand!”


- I believe this to be Gohan ascending to his ssj2 form.


Chapter: 461 (DBZ 267), P3.5-7
Context: after Kaioshin says they must run from Boo
Gohan: “…Is that so?...He really does have tremendous ki, but…It doesn’t seem like so much so that there’s nothing I can do…[ ] …If I can only put out all of my true power…”


- If only Gohan can go ssj2. His true power that he has yet to achieve seams at this point to be ssj2, as he still has yet, since first shown super saiyan against Dabura, to appear as such.


Chapter: 460 (DBZ 266), P4.1-5
Context: before Gohan fires the Kamehameha at Boo’s ball
Gohan: “An-anyhow, he's reached full power, so…at the very least…Uaaaah! I’ll offer this much resistance!”


- At one point I recall this quote getting confused with " I've reached full power", as in, Gohan could have been ssj2. Clearly this is not the case. Here he says this much like at least this must resistance when there's now nothing left to loose, and like it's not his true power but "at the very least" he'll attack with this much power.


So where exactly in the story does it imply Gohan was ssj2 against Dabura and Boo? Goku and Vegeta's comments work just fine if Gohan was fpssj against Dabura and they were just comparing him to his fpssj Kid self that fought Cell before becoming ssj2. It literally makes no difference, and yet there's a reasonable doubt when he's clearly not a ssj2 like he was early that day or like Goku and Vegeta were one page away. I know a bit off-topic, but not really, because this conversation by the OP always leads back to this so I'm just curious. Besides the guide book 7 entry (which came out long before the manga was created, and that of which I still believe to be a mistake, one Toriyama wouldn't be capable of catching by then) , why think Gohan has to be ssj2 for the story to make sense? I seriously don't get it...

I disagree with Gohan needing anger to transform into SSjin2. Gohan flat out states he would just show Kibito SSjin2 proving that he could transform whenever he wanted to. It wasn't just an unexpected outcry like it was when he got enraged back in the Freeza arc etc.
He was perfectly composed against Kibito apart from being a little nervous that his classmates would know who he really was and what he was capable of.

Hell if he was truly 'angry' then surely he would have went into 'a frenzy' like he usually did and as Vegeta pointed out am I right?

Btw he says that with his true power he would probably have a chance against Majin boo. Not full power.

Also read this xD

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The above image was fucking hilarious!
And I'm beginning have doubts about if Gohan wasn't SSJ2. Gohan should definitely be Super Saiyan 2 for the known reasons.