Human power levels.

[tablet the eunuch]

The DBZOA, go back to it :/

[Zackarotto]

Seanbaby rocks. (www.seanbaby.com)

[VegettoEX]

Keep it civil, or leave. That's all I'm going to say.

[Gohan-kun]

"The fact that Tenshinhan can perform the "Kikoho" and has trained himself to endure the physical strain of the attack means that he's a more powerful fighter than Krillin."

And? Goku never trained himself to endure the physical strain of the Kikoho. Does that mean Ten > Goku too now?

"You're making the assumption that -all- dialogue in -every- context is absolutely true unless contradicted "

Its a fact. As I've asked before, can you please bring up an instance which this was not proven to be true?

"So he should have said: "Strongest amongst Earthlings, anyway -- except for that guy Tenshinhan, who I haven't seen in years. He might -actually- be the strongest. I don't know for sure because I haven't seen him". "

No. He could have neglected the second part completely. Or he could have easily said "One of the strongest among earthlings anyway." Instead, he specifically states he's the strongest earthling. I don't care how much you wanna argue it. There's never been a time where something stated, and never again contradicted, was proven to be invalid. You dismiss dialogue because of your own personal reasons. You don't feel Yamucha is qualified. I do. And I doubt Toriyama would have him say something like that in order to be wrong or to make him look like more of a doofus. Matter of fact, state one reason why Toriyama would have his character say that if it wasn't true.

"Yes, a whole month after seven years of inactivity. You saw what happened to Gohan's power after abstaining from his training."

Thats not my point. My point is that we have PROOF that Kuririn at least trained for one month. We have NO proof whatsoever that Ten trained besides your assumptions.

"ONCE AGAIN, you are not Akira Toriyama, even though you might have deluded yourself into believing that you are. Don't presume to understand his precise reasoning."

I don't need to be Akira Toriyama. Its plainly obvious. You're telling me he'd have his character state Kuririn (his favorite human) be the strongest among humans in order to show Yamucha's "stupidity" or "unqualification"?

"It's a terribly powerful attack. Much more powerful than a kamehameha. But, because of it's power, the attacker spends all his ki and can die. Even if he doesn't die, he will have his life shortened. "

He says because of "its" power. Not only that, but going by your logic like I've stated a million times, Tenshinhan > #16 and Piccolo if the Kikoho is ONLY his ki. The attack itself can't be derived only from Tenshinhan's own ki, otherwise he's greater than all the characters I've stated.

"Um, no. There was blood in the manga (Chapter 343, for anyone interested). That was an important plot point of the battle that he let #19 punch him to figure out his level."

You're right. I forgot about that. Doesn't mean Vegeta took damage. Comparing that situation to the situation with Kuririn and Ginyu is stupid. Kuririn hit Ginyu twice enough for him to be hurt and say "Impossible. This is impossible!" Vegeta stood there and let #19 hit him in order to see how strong he was.

About the Tenshinhan not at the tournament thing, Yamucha wasn't amongst the group when they were talking about why he wasn't at the tournament was he?

"Yamucha is a doofus.
Yamucha hasn't seen Tenshinhan in seven years.
Yamucha may not have even seen -Krillin- use his full strength in years.
Yamucha was talking to a little girl when he first brought the topic up.
Yamucha is an easily impeachable source with those facts considered.
Yamucha has stupid hair. "

Those are your reasons for Yamucha not being qualified. The first is an opinion, or an attempt (rather stupid one) to be funny. The second, we don't know. The third, we don't know either, but once again, theres no reason for Yamucha to say what he said had he not known Kuririn's power. And its proven that its possible to know how strong your opponent is with only knowing a slight portion of their ki. This is proven by the fact that Goku knew Cell was still stronger than him and states this, even though he's never seen Cell use even 50% of his power. The fourth reason I've already proven wrong numerous times. 5th was just a summation of the reasons he isn't qualified in your opinion. And the 6th is another stupid attempt at being humorous. Yamucha is qualified because

1. He knows and can sense ki. He's been doing it ever since the time with the Saibamen (stated the earth warriors are capable of concealing their ki and being able to sense ki). So he's had plenty of practice.

2. There's no reason why Toriyama would have him state such. If there is a reason, please provide it.

3. There isnt a time where something stated, never contradicted, was proven invalid. Don't see why it has to suddenly apply now.

4. You can tell how strong one is even before they reach full power. This is proven with the fact that Goku states Cell is stronger than him, even before he exerted 50% of his max.

Once more, please provide something which shows Ten > Kuririn during the Boo saga. Like I said, I have a statement, which you believe, is made by someone not qualified, but you have NOTHING to show that Ten > Kuririn. Statement > Nothing.

About the blood thing, I was refering to the Vegeta and #19 seen, not the manga as a whole. Of course the manga was more gruesome. I even recall Gohan killing the Cell Jr's in a much worse fashion than in the anime.

[TripleRach]

He says because of "its" power. Not only that, but going by your logic like I've stated a million times, Tenshinhan > #16 and Piccolo if the Kikoho is ONLY his ki. The attack itself can't be derived only from Tenshinhan's own ki, otherwise he's greater than all the characters I've stated.

If it doesn't come from Tenshinhan's ki, then where does it come from? There is no external source for any of these ki attacks, save Genkidama. The fact is, Kikouhou is focusing your ki directly into your hands, and releasing it. To use all of your ki would kill you (as seen in the Nappa battle), but Tenshinhan is able to control it so that he doesn't use up 100%, especially come Shinkikouhou. That's why it's dangerous because of its power; "its power" is caused by the fact that it uses up a great deal of ki, and your ki is your spirit/life force/etc. Kamehameha is not shown to be capable of using up such large fractions of the user's ki, and thusly does not do as much proportional damage.

About the Tenshinhan not at the tournament thing, Yamucha wasn't amongst the group when they were talking about why he wasn't at the tournament was he?

No, but my point was, everyone was getting together for it. Gohan contacted most of the people, but not everyone. Buruma was the one who informed Yamucha. If Yamucha had any contact with Tenshinhan, don't you think he would have invited him? Why would the story specifically have Kuririn mention the "I probably won't see any of you again" line if someone had any contact him?

Also, as far as Yamucha's credibility goes... Yes, he was certainly a more skilled martial artist than the majority of the people on Earth. But he paled in comparison to the rest of the Dragon Team, which he has known almost the entire time. In fact, he has lost most of his canon fights in the series, except for the invisible man at Baba's palace, and beating the qualifying matches at the first three Budoukai.

[Gohan-kun]

Why would the story specifically have Kuririn mention the "I probably won't see any of you again" line if someone had any contact him?

Thats similar to what I've been saying about Yamucha's comment. Why would he say it if it were invalid? He must have either seen Ten, or compared him to the last time he saw him which was during the Cell Games.

If it doesn't come from Tenshinhan's ki, then where does it come from? There is no external source for any of these ki attacks, save Genkidama. The fact is, Kikouhou is focusing your ki directly into your hands, and releasing it. To use all of your ki would kill you (as seen in the Nappa battle), but Tenshinhan is able to control it so that he doesn't use up 100%, especially come Shinkikouhou. That's why it's dangerous because of its power; "its power" is caused by the fact that it uses up a great deal of ki, and your ki is your spirit/life force/etc. Kamehameha is not shown to be capable of using up such large fractions of the user's ki, and thusly does not do as much proportional damage.

But that means the KIkoho can't be used to judge one's strength. Because no one could generate anything powerful enough to hold Cell back from absorbing #18, but Tenshinhan could. So if Tenshinhan's entire ki can hold Cell back, while Goku and everyone else states they can't do anything to Cell, that means Ten > Goku+Piccolo etc. That would also mean SSJ Goku doing a Kamehameha on Cell < Tenshinhan doing a Kikoho on Cell. This would mean the Tenshinhan is technically stronger than everyone. That can't be so.

[Jerseymilk]

In regards to TripleRach's comment about them all trying to contact one another and get together for the tournament. I think she definitely has a good point there. They always seem to be pretty thorough about that when they can. Remember back to the beginning of DBZ when everyone was meeting up at Kame House and when Buruma asks "Where's that Lunch chick?", Kuririn(for some reason he seems to be the one always saying these things ), says that she went chasing after Tenshinhan 5 years ago and they hadn't seen her after that. So, if Buruma can even enquire about someone like Lunch, who she wasn't very close to, you can be sure that they'd definitely want Tenshinhan to be there with them at the tournament if it was possible.

[James R. Cadwell]

And? Goku never trained himself to endure the physical strain of the Kikoho. Does that mean Ten > Goku too now?

We already know that Goku is stronger than Tenshinhan, so this is a false analogy.

And I doubt Toriyama would have him say something like that in order to be wrong or to make him look like more of a doofus. Matter of fact, state one reason why Toriyama would have his character say that if it wasn't true.

Is it possible for you to debate without asking me to guess at Toriyama's personal thoughts?

Thats not my point. My point is that we have PROOF that Kuririn at least trained for one month. We have NO proof whatsoever that Ten trained besides your assumptions.

We don't have proof that one month of training after seven years of inactivity would even be sufficient to bring Krillin up to Cell Saga Tenshinhan's power level. Gohan also trained for a month before the tournament and wasn't anywhere close to the level of power he attained seven years prior. Moreover, it would be out of character for Tenshinhan to end his training since he's done nothing but train and roam the countryside since he was first introduced. Tenshinhan is very much like Goku and Vegeta -- a consummate warrior.

I don't need to be Akira Toriyama. Its plainly obvious. You're telling me he'd have his character state Kuririn (his favorite human) be the strongest among humans in order to show Yamucha's "stupidity" or "unqualification"?

You are speculating on Toriyama's intentions again. You don't know if Toriyama wanted to characterize Yamucha as an ordinary human who can be wrong. I don't know his reasoning either. Neither of us can use such speculation as a debate tactic.

He says because of "its" power. Not only that, but going by your logic like I've stated a million times, Tenshinhan > #16 and Piccolo if the Kikoho is ONLY his ki. The attack itself can't be derived only from Tenshinhan's own ki, otherwise he's greater than all the characters I've stated.

It only means that he's able to direct more energy using the strenuous "Kikoho" technique than the "artificial humans" and Piccolo can with low-level "ki" attacks and other energy techniques which don't allow the user to channel as much of their "ki" as the "Kikoho" does. The energy does come from Tenshinhan -- it's just that a significant amount of his "ki" is siphoned away when he performs the technique, as opposed to what I assume is an inconsequential amount for other attacks. Krillin can't direct that much energy all at once, so he's less powerful.

You're right. I forgot about that. Doesn't mean Vegeta took damage.

If Vegeta was bleeding then his skin had been broken. This should be apparent to anyone.

This is proven by the fact that Goku knew Cell was still stronger than him and states this, even though he's never seen Cell use even 50% of his power.

This is irrelevant because Yamucha never even had a chance to see Buu Saga Tenshinhan use a small fraction of his total strength.

1. He knows and can sense ki. He's been doing it ever since the time with the Saibamen (stated the earth warriors are capable of concealing their ki and being able to sense ki). So he's had plenty of practice.

This was never an issue of contention. You are ignoring the fact that Yamucha had zero contact with Tenshinhan after the "Cell Games" concluded and therefore wouldn't have had the opportunity to directly observe Tenshinhan's "ki".

2. There's no reason why Toriyama would have him state such. If there is a reason, please provide it.

You are not Akira Toriyama. Neither of us can speculate on his reasoning.

3. There isnt a time where something stated, never contradicted, was proven invalid. Don't see why it has to suddenly apply now.

Generally the rules of logic always apply or events can easily be reconciled with those rules. Yamucha did not have any contact with Tenshinhan after the "Cell Games", so he did not possess the information necessary to arrive at a credible conclusion. It's really very simple.

Once more, please provide something which shows Ten > Kuririn during the Boo saga. Like I said, I have a statement, which you believe, is made by someone not qualified, but you have NOTHING to show that Ten > Kuririn. Statement > Nothing.

Krillin is never verifiably stronger than Tenshinhan, so that establishes a inveteracy which persisted into the Cell Saga where Tenshinhan continued to be manifestly stronger than Krillin. Krillin ended his training following the "Cell Games" and only resumed it for a brief period immediately preceeding the 25th Tenkaichi Budoukai. We don't know whether or not Tenshinhan trained during during the seven year interim between the end of the "Cell Saga" and the martial-arts tournament. However; Tenshinhan makes an appearance later in the Buu Saga and once again demonstrates strength exceeding anything Krillin exhibits throughout the course of the entire saga.

The only evidence you have provided is a comment made by a character who wasn't qualified to authoritatively state that Krillin is the strongest human on Earth. Until you're able to produce something that irrefutably establishes that Yamucha was aware of Tenshinhan's power level when he made that statement, your argument remains what it has been all along -- feeble and derived from imprecise, unreliable dialogue. Don't consider this an ad hominem directed towards you specifically -- it's just the reality of any situation where you maintain an untenable position based on weak evidence.

About the blood thing, I was refering to the Vegeta and #19 seen, not the manga as a whole.

You were wrong either way.

(PS: Our posts are getting too long, so let's try to snip the superfluous material irrelevant to the primary debate from this point on, eh? We only need to address each element of the discussion once per post.)

[James R. Cadwell]

But that means the KIkoho can't be used to judge one's strength. Because no one could generate anything powerful enough to hold Cell back from absorbing #18, but Tenshinhan could. So if Tenshinhan's entire ki can hold Cell back, while Goku and everyone else states they can't do anything to Cell, that means Ten > Goku+Piccolo etc. That would also mean SSJ Goku doing a Kamehameha on Cell < Tenshinhan doing a Kikoho on Cell. This would mean the Tenshinhan is technically stronger than everyone. That can't be so.

Think about it this way. Each energy attack in Dragon Ball uses a proportionally-fixed amount of the user's "ki".

If Goku has 1000 "ki points", then "Kamehameha" allows him to direct 1% of his total "ki", or 10 "ki points"

If Tenshinhan has 100 "ki points", then "Kikoho" allows him to direct 25% of his total "ki", or 25 "ki points"

Goku would still have more energy than Tenshinhan and more physical strength because of his higher "ki rating", but Tenshinhan can direct more energy at once using the "Kikoho".

(EDIT: Just to clarify, the example I provided above would only be valid for the early Cell Saga. A "Kamehameha" from Goku after he trained in the Room of Spirit and Time would clearly be greater than a "Kikoho" from Tenshinhan.)

[Gohan-kun]

We already know that Goku is stronger than Tenshinhan, so this is a false analogy.

How is it false? You said something about Kuririn has never mastered the Kikoho so Ten > Kuririn. Just because he didn't attempt it, doesn't mean he couldn't handle it.

We don't have proof that one month of training after seven years of inactivity would even be sufficient to bring Krillin up to Cell Saga Tenshinhan's power level. Gohan also trained for a month before the tournament and wasn't anywhere close to the level of power he attained seven years prior. Moreover, it would be out of character for Tenshinhan to end his training since he's done nothing but train and roam the countryside since he was first introduced. Tenshinhan is very much like Goku and Vegeta -- a consummate warrior.

Even though he's proven to given up on training in the past (refer to Room of Spirit and Time stuff).

This is irrelevant because Yamucha never even had a chance to see Buu Saga Tenshinhan use a small fraction of his total strength.

Which means he was comparing him to the last time he saw him. Cell Games perhaps? And there's nothing suggested Ten was training during the 7 years anyway.

You are speculating on Toriyama's intentions again. You don't know if Toriyama wanted to characterize Yamucha as an ordinary human who can be wrong. I don't know his reasoning either. Neither of us can use such speculation as a debate tactic.

Well the fact is, it was stated. You're debating it saying Toriyama might have these other reasons for saying so. But throwing that out the window, it was stated and never proven wrong. You can assume otherwise but it was stated.

It only means that he's able to direct more energy using the strenuous "Kikoho" technique than the "artificial humans" and Piccolo can with low-level "ki" attacks and other energy techniques which don't allow the user to channel as much of their "ki" as the "Kikoho" does. The energy does come from Tenshinhan -- it's just that a significant amount of his "ki" is siphoned away when he performs the technique, as opposed to what I assume is an inconsequential amount for other attacks. Krillin can't direct that much energy all at once, so he's less powerful.

Kuririn can't direct that much energy because he doesn't know the Kikoho technique. He has no technique which does so. Neither does Vegeta, or any of the other characters. This doesn't mean they are less powerful than Ten.

If Vegeta was bleeding then his skin had been broken. This should be apparent to anyone.

This does not constitue as taking damage in the DB world. But if you want it to so be it. The damage Vegeta took was insignificant do the damage Kuririn did to Ginyu. Kuririn did damage to a point where ginyu was falling from it and screaming about how "This is impossible." Vegeta took a direct blow to test someone's strength and laughs. It obviously had no effect on Vegeta while it did on Ginyu.

Krillin is never verifiably stronger than Tenshinhan, so that establishes a inveteracy which persisted into the Cell Saga where Tenshinhan continued to be manifestly stronger than Krillin. Krillin ended his training following the "Cell Games" and only resumed it for a brief period immediately preceeding the 25th Tenkaichi Budoukai. We don't know whether or not Tenshinhan trained during during the seven year interim between the end of the "Cell Saga" and the martial-arts tournament. However; Tenshinhan makes an appearance later in the Buu Saga and once again demonstrates strength exceeding anything Krillin exhibits throughout the course of the entire saga.

Never known if Kuririn < Ten during the Cell saga. And I don't see how deflecting a kikoha intended for people with battle power under 100 is "demonstrating strength exceeding Kuririn's."

it's just the reality of any situation where you maintain an untenable position based on weak evidence.

Evidence stated by a fictional character, you believe is "unqualified."

[Jerseymilk]

Gohan-kun: You're totally misunderstanding how the Kikoho works. Think of it as a supernova. One, big instant burst of energy. There's only a lot of energy for a short time. It's just a burst of a lot of energy, the majority of a person's energy in a split second. That doesn't mean that Tenshinhan is more powerful than Goku or Vegita, or whoever, the Kikoho is powerful because of that one instant when a person's entire "ki" is focused in one concentration and then released all at once. It's like the pressure that builds up in a volcano, and if you know about volcanoes, you know that once they erupt, the energy released is equilavent to hundreds of atomic bombs. You can see why it is such a powerful technique and why it could momentarily stand up to a Cell with an absorbed #17 in him, it's just that it doesn't last and takes a lethal toll on the user.

[TripleRach]

But that means the KIkoho can't be used to judge one's strength. Because no one could generate anything powerful enough to hold Cell back from absorbing #18, but Tenshinhan could. So if Tenshinhan's entire ki can hold Cell back, while Goku and everyone else states they can't do anything to Cell, that means Ten > Goku+Piccolo etc. That would also mean SSJ Goku doing a Kamehameha on Cell < Tenshinhan doing a Kikoho on Cell. This would mean the Tenshinhan is technically stronger than everyone. That can't be so.

You're forgetting one thing: All that Tenshinhan did against Cell was hold him back, not defeat him or seriously wound him. He was capable of holding Cell back for a while, but that was about it. It is entirely feasible that one of his Kikouhou could be more powerful than a single attack from Piccolo or Gokuu, because neither of them possess techniques that can use such a high percentage of their power at once.

[James R. Cadwell]

1.) Yamucha believed that Krillin was the strongest human. He also had no contact with Tenshinhan for seven years, and consequentially he wasn't knowledgeable enough to compare Krillin and Tenshinhan's relative strength at that moment. Gohan-kun noted that this probably means that Yamucha was mentally comparing Krillin to Tenshinhan from the "Cell Games". This does imply that Krillin is stronger than Tenshinhan, if we assume that Tenshinhan did not train during the seven year interim to increase his power.

I'm tentatively giving this one to Krillin.

2.) Tenshinhan has demonstrated the ability to generate more power than Krillin ever has. However; this ability is due to his mastery of the "Kikoho" technique, which uses far more "ki" than a fighter is normally capable of applying in combat. This only tells us that Tenshinhan has a better attack; not necessarily that he's generally stronger.

Inconclusive.

After this debate I'm actually starting to think that I should revise my original opinion. The very feasible possibility that Yamucha might have been comparing Buu Saga Krillin to Cell Saga Tenshinhan was really the clincher for me, especially since we don't know for certain if Tenshinhan trained after that point.

I'd say that Krillin is potentially physically stronger and more durable than Tenshinhan, but Tenshinhan definitely has a more powerful attack.

[Neon Z]

I don't need to be. Point out one instance where something stated and was never contradicted was still invalid. Please do so for me.

I found it! Tenshinhan states(while in using that four bodies attack in the 23 Budokai) that another attack from him would seriously injury, or even, kill Goku. But Goku had barely been scratched by the first attack... Are you telling me that with another attack Tenshinhan would kill Goku?

Also... about the kikoho. Its powerful because it uses more ki. I guess everyone agrees here. But the kikoho that Tenshinhan used against Super Boo 2 weak blast clearly didn't use much ki, he wasn't tired after using it, differently from every other time he used that attack. So... a weak kikoho from Tenshinhan deflected a weak attack from Super Boo 2. This doesn't mean a lot for the Kuririn VS Tenshinhan discussion... but... eh... it's better than nothing.

[Gohan-kun]

I don't need to be. Point out one instance where something stated and was never contradicted was still invalid. Please do so for me.

I found it! Tenshinhan states(while in using that four bodies attack in the 23 Budokai) that another attack from him would seriously injury, or even, kill Goku. But Goku had barely been scratched by the first attack... Are you telling me that with another attack Tenshinhan would kill Goku?

Also... about the kikoho. Its powerful because it uses more ki. I guess everyone agrees here. But the kikoho that Tenshinhan used against Super Boo 2 weak blast clearly didn't use much ki, he wasn't tired after using it, differently from every other time he used that attack. So... a weak kikoho from Tenshinhan deflected a weak attack from Super Boo 2. This doesn't mean a lot for the Kuririn VS Tenshinhan discussion... but... eh... it's better than nothing.

Thats contradicted by the fact that Goku wasn't using his full strength until he fought Ma Junior.

I guess it can honestly go either way depending at how you look at things. This would be easily solved had we known if Ten trained during those seven years or not.

[Neon Z]

Goku had already taken out his weight clothing by that point, and, as shown in the battle against Radtiz, besides special moves, that's the only thing which change DB Goku power level.

And about Tenshinhan Vs Kuririn... well... this is not directly related to that... but...

The shin kikohos that Tenshinhan used against Cell had a better effect than the full powered kikohos he used against Nappa(who wasn't pushed back by the attack)... in your opnion, does this mean that the difference in power between Tenshinhan and Cell 2 was smaller than the difference in power between Nappa and Tenshinhan?

Could anyone check the manga chapter which shows Tenshinhan dodging Boo's genocide attack? It's only one pannel in the manga. In the anime, he was wearing his old training clothes from Sayan Saga(or end of db, can't remember). Is he wearing those clothes in the manga? It's been a while since I read that chapter and I don't have that manga.

[James R. Cadwell]

The shin kikohos that Tenshinhan used against Cell had a better effect than the full powered kikohos he used against Nappa(who wasn't pushed back by the attack)... in your opnion, does this mean that the difference in power between Tenshinhan and Cell 2 was smaller than the difference in power between Nappa and Tenshinhan?

I think it's more likely that Tenshinhan had simply refined the "Kikoho" technique to improve its strength and effectiveness.

[TripleRach]

Tenshinhan only has one outfit in the manga version of the Buu saga. When he dodges the genocide attack, and the other time when he feels SSJ3 Gokuu, he has the same clothes as when he later shows up to deflect Buu's attack.