Human power levels.

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 2:03 pm

Does anyone think that Krillin, Tenshinhan or Yamcha ever exceeded the power level of the initial Super Saiya-jin stage that Goku reached on Namek? Did any of the humans ever even -approach- that level of power?

Tenshinhan was able to generate enough power with his "Shin Kikoho" technique to briefly overwhelm the "semi-perfect" version of Cell and blasted him backwards -- an impressive feat considering that the obviously stronger "artificial humans" 16 and 18 were unable to accomplish this. Tenshinhan also used the "Kikoho" to deflect one of Majin Buu's energy attacks later in the series.

Krillin could keep pace with 18 after Trunks instructed her to escape from Cell (which has a clear speed implication) and did seem to have improved substantially since the Frieza Saga. I can't really think of any instances where Yamcha demonstrated a level of power commensurate with Tenshinhan or Krillin's -- he seems to be the weakest of the human warriors, which is generally already acknowledged in the DBZ community.

As an afterthought -- 4th form Frieza vs. Cell/Buu Saga Tenshinhan or Krillin? Would it be possible for any of the humans to severely injure or kill Frieza?

Post by **VegettoEX** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 2:07 pm

I have nothing to back it up with, but I get the feeling that at least Kuririn and Tenshinhan might be able to fight head-to-head with Freeza in his fourth form (provided he doesn't get any stronger from his Freeza Saga power / strength). Tenshinhan might even be able to topple him... as seen in the 22nd and 23rd Tenka-ichi Budokai, he's a damn good fighter both in strength and intelligence. He'd take advantage of any mistakes Freeza may make in a heartbeat.

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 2:24 pm

VegettoEX wrote:I have nothing to back it up with, but I get the feeling that at least Kuririn and Tenshinhan might be able to fight head-to-head with Freeza in his fourth form (provided he doesn't get any stronger from his Freeza Saga power / strength). Tenshinhan might even be able to topple him... as seen in the 22nd and 23rd Tenka-ichi Budokai, he's a damn good fighter both in strength and intelligence. He'd take advantage of any mistakes Freeza may make in a heartbeat.

I also believe that the "Shin Kikoho" technique developed by Tenshinhan might be powerful enough to kill Frieza outright.

1.) Super Saiya-jin Trunks was able to blast a hole through King Cold effortlessly.

2.) "Artificial human" 18 was significantly more powerful than Trunks was when he first arrived from the future and confronted Cyborg Frieza and King Cold.

3.) 18 wasn't able to injure or even dramatically off-balance "semi-perfect" Cell with her energy attacks.

4.) The "Shin Kikoho" technique -did- knock Cell backwards and drove him into the ground if I recall correctly.

My conclusion would be that the "Shin Kikoho" is at least as powerful as the energy blast Trunks used to kill King Cold.

Does that seem like a decent logical progression? My only misgiving about inferring that the "Shin Kikoho" is powerful enough to destroy Frieza is the fact that it wasn't clearly established that the "artificial humans" were capable of generating energy attacks on the same scale as even a weak Super Saiya-jin.

Post by **VegettoEX** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 2:29 pm

I think it's all perfectly logical. Even if the attack isn't enough to out-right kill Freeza, there's a damn good chance it would do enough damage to allow Tenshinhan to finish the job without worry.

SonGohan-san · Post by **SonGohan-san** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 4:24 pm

I'd just like to add that I always found Tienshinhan to be on a completely different level than Kuririn. The whole debate about which one is stronger seems completely ridiculous to me. Yeah, everyone loves the Kikohos that Tienshinhan did to Cell. How many did he do? Like a thousand?

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 4:29 pm

SonGohan-san wrote:I'd just like to add that I always found Tienshinhan to be on a completely different level than Kuririn. The whole debate about which one is stronger seems completely ridiculous to me. Yeah, everyone loves the Kikohos that Tienshinhan did to Cell. How many did he do? Like a thousand?

I think the entire argument over which human is most powerful stems from a comment made by Yamcha to Krillin's daughter in the Buu Saga. From what I recall, he basically says that Krillin is the strongest human in the world. That's an example of the reason why I don't like to use dialogue as evidence in debates.

SonGohan-san · Post by **SonGohan-san** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 4:36 pm

Yeah, that's exactly where it came from despite the fact it seems rather clear that Kuririn is nothing to Tenshinhan and never was (even in DB), quite honestly. People just can't put things in proper context concerning the Yamucha comment. Imagine how dumb it would sound to have Yamucha say to Marron, "your father is the strongest human in the world excect for this one guy I know but he's not here so don't worry about it."

Also, I never liked the idea of Kuririn being stronger than Freeza either. It just seems so unrealistic to me for him to have gained that much strength. I could maaaybe see Tien, just b/c he always seemed to be more obsessed with strength. All Kuririn seemed to do was blast Kamehamehas in the water and worry about getting married. I just don't see "Freeza level" i.e. powering up so much that the planet shakes, strength coming from that guy. In all honesty, I don't see Kuririn ever reaching Recoome's level, though I know people would never believe that idea.

Post by **VegettoEX** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 4:38 pm

I don't want to tell anyone what to do, but for the purpose of looking better than most other DB boards, let's at least go with "Tenshinhan" and "Freeza" (rather than "Tienshinhan" and *shiver* "Frieza").

I don't have much of a problem with "Krillin," since when I speak his name aloud, I use "Krillin" 'cuz it rolls off the tongue a lot easier than "Kuririn" does

.

But yeah... Tenshinhan has always seemed to be in his own level, compared to the other humans.

Zackarotto · Post by **Zackarotto** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:53 pm

To me, Tenshinhan is definately the strongest, and Kuririn isn't that far behind. If Kuririn went psycho and forgot everything else except training, he could do amazingly.

That was always Kuririn's problem. Back in DB, Goku and Kuririn could have ended up fighting side by side for a huge time before Goku's Saiyan DNA and SSJ abilities made it impossible for Kuririn to keep up. Kuririn just never put as much effort into training... As Goku was destroying bases of RR soldiers and defeating such strong enemies, Kuririn was still back on the island doing pushups under Roshi and basically living in peace.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 7:25 pm

Don't forget too that Tenshinhan trained with Kaio-sama and also chose to stay, along with Chaozu for a while longer than Yamucha, when only one of them could be wished back. I suspect that the extra time with Kaio-sama would have helped him a great deal. Plus, although only filler, when he, Chaozu, and Yamucha fought the Ginyu-tokusentai, Tenshinhan took on and defeated both Jees and Batta. It was pretty clear from the outset that Tenshinhan was a cut above the other humans.

Dai · Post by **Dai** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 7:37 pm

Kuririn wouldn't be too far behind, in my opinion. Hey, he did knock Imperfect Cell away.

It would be fair to say #18 and 17 would have a power which makes Freeza's look like nothing. I mean, Freeza had this huge upgrade from all those cyborg part thingies, yet Trunks defeated him without any effort. Then Trunks shows that he's clearly no match for Goku, at all. Then, after three years of intense training, #17 and #18 arrive. I'd say Vegeta was about just as strong Goku would have been if he was there, and he had his ass handed to him, just like the rest (Except Kuririn.). That's a whole lot of power difference. Freeza would have the strenght of an ant (Literally) compared to the Artifical Humans.

Yet none of the Artifical Humans ever show these ''earth shattering power ups'' or gigantic Ki blasts, or the extensively speedy moves that Freeza and Goku did on Namek.

That's always been a fault in DB, in my opinion. I mean, by the end of the Buu Saga, Goku has enough power to destroy worlds with his pinky toe. Yet when he fights against Kid Buu, he's moving even slower than with his fight against Piccolo. TOEI never really paid any attention to that...

So, it's safe to say there's no telling how strong Kuririn's become. For all we know, he could whoop Freeza's ass ten times over.

Kodoshin · Post by **Kodoshin** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 8:35 pm

I've always felt that the humans sorta hit a fairly low ceiling on their strength during the Freeza saga, and then afterwards just gained power at a very sluggish pace.

I think the best example of this would probably be when Artifical Humans 19 and 20 first showup, 19 mistakes Yamucha for Goku. Based on what we hear later from 20 while he's talking to Goku about the data they have on him (That it, at latest came from the battle with Vegeta on Earth) we can surmise that it was Saiya-Jin Saga Goku that they mistook Yamucha for.

Now if thats Yamucha's actual strength at this point, it's a given that Tenshinhan is stronger than him, but I doubt that he could open up such a mammoth gap between them at this point as to be strong enough to compete with someone like say Freeza (in direct combat), and given that he does not benefit from any super powerups the rest of the way I just dont think it's very likely even by the end of the Boo era.

Maybe the Shin Kikoho would be able to do something against someone like Freeza, but I really cannot see it being enough to put him away.

I think by the end Tenshinhan was probably capable of defeating any Ginyu member outside of Ginyu himself. Anyone higher than that and I think he'd have to be considered at a severe handicap.

Just my opinion though.

SonGohan-san · Post by **SonGohan-san** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 8:53 pm

Well, I agree with you except for Tenshinhan. I think he was the one different human. I mean, everyone assumes b/c Kuririn got like one kick in off Imperfect Cell or whatever that he's somehow above Freeza?! I just don't see it. I mean, I don't think b/c "Kuririn trained really hard" that he's necessarily able to pace much after Freeza. Everyone just assumes that Kuririn gets so much stronger w/o much of implication of that. Him beating Recoome is a stretch to me. It really is. I don't think Yamucha could do it either (aside from being weaker than Kuririn) b/c as someone already mentioned, the Ginyu vs. humans was all filler. Another thing I'd like to add: I think when Saichorou released Kuririn's potential it did a lot more to peaking out Kuririn's full abilites than Gohan's (this is obvious, but bear with me). For one, Kuririn is human and secondly, he was a full grown adult while Gohan was like 5 or 6. That's bogus to most people, I know, but to me he never trained hard enough to double his already released "full" potential.

As far as the lack of speed shown in the animation, I have to agree with Dai. But I thought the Android stuff was fine. Hell, I thought Perfect Cell vs. Goku illustrated the speed and power of the fighters better than any other fight in the entire series (maybe with Goku vs. Piccolo in second). It was around the Buu saga that I started to have problems with it. But yeah, that's been one of my beefs with the Buu saga (I have many). When Goku fought Cell, used so many cool examples of just how fast you had to be to be on the top level. Who can forget Goku doing that sweeping leg trip on Cell, Cell then falling forward w/ a look of horror on his face as he's about to meet up with Goku's fist, and yet he still evades it! One of my favorite scenes. Someone tell me one scene that is that cool related to speed in the Buu Saga.

Hope this doesn't sound like a rant. It's just one opinion out so many about this ambigous monstrousity of Toriyama's.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 9:16 pm

I think in terms of Ki manipulation ONLY could Tenshinhan and Krillin beat Freeza. Note that Cell was caught unawares by the Shin Kikiho and, before the effects of one of them could wear off, Tenshinhan had already launched like three more. If Cell knew it was coming he would have dodged it easily and killed him before Tenshinhan could realize he missed.

Strength wise (during Boo saga) I'd place him as strong enough to hold his own against 4th form Freeza (provided Freeza hasn't trained since Namek) but unless Kikohos are used I think he eventually would have lost like non-SSJ Goku would have.

Krillin (android/Cell saga) I see making it to a level equal to that of Vegeta's when he squared off against form 4 Freeza: more than enough to handle form 3, but would get his ass handed to him if Freeza changed into his fourth form.

Back to KI: Note that when Freeza had a PL of 1 mil and Krillin only 13,000, Krillin lopped off a considerable chunk of Freeza's tail. I think because of this Krillin could kill form 4 Freeza if he connected with another Kienzan.

Concerning Yamcha...alors là... Best case scenario I see for him is making it as strong as Ginyu if not for Kaio's training. Thanks to it though, as well as the 3 years of training before the androids came, I think Yamcha is as strong as form 1 Freeza. Even then though, he'd lose since he has least amount of techniques in his repertoire, all of which are the weakest. Yamcha vs Freeza form 1: Freeza spending an hour in a regen tank (max) afterwards. Yamcha vs Freeza form 2,3 or 4: Freeza no prob.

Gohan-kun · Post by **Gohan-kun** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 10:25 pm

James R. Cadwell wrote:
SonGohan-san wrote:I'd just like to add that I always found Tienshinhan to be on a completely different level than Kuririn. The whole debate about which one is stronger seems completely ridiculous to me. Yeah, everyone loves the Kikohos that Tienshinhan did to Cell. How many did he do? Like a thousand?
I think the entire argument over which human is most powerful stems from a comment made by Yamcha to Krillin's daughter in the Buu Saga. From what I recall, he basically says that Krillin is the strongest human in the world. That's an example of the reason why I don't like to use dialogue as evidence in debates.

Oh so Toriyama makes his fictional characters lie for no reason? I think not. If its stated, and never to be contradicted or dismissed, it holds validity. With that being said, I go with Kuririn > Ten. It makes sense that AT would make his favorite human the strongest.

"Back to KI: Note that when Freeza had a PL of 1 mil and Krillin only 13,000, "

Not true. His battle power was at least over 23,000. Ginyu in Goku's body was at 23,000 and Kuririn was beating him up with ease by himself. After, Gohan joined in since Kuririn convinced him he's weak as hell.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 11:07 pm

13,000 comes from the daizenshuu. As for beating up Ginyu in Goku's body, I think that's a bit much. He only gave in one good hit. They were trying to avoid damaging Goku's body.

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 11:53 pm

Gohan-kun wrote:
James R. Cadwell wrote:
SonGohan-san wrote:I'd just like to add that I always found Tienshinhan to be on a completely different level than Kuririn. The whole debate about which one is stronger seems completely ridiculous to me. Yeah, everyone loves the Kikohos that Tienshinhan did to Cell. How many did he do? Like a thousand?
I think the entire argument over which human is most powerful stems from a comment made by Yamcha to Krillin's daughter in the Buu Saga. From what I recall, he basically says that Krillin is the strongest human in the world. That's an example of the reason why I don't like to use dialogue as evidence in debates.
Oh so Toriyama makes his fictional characters lie for no reason? I think not. If its stated, and never to be contradicted or dismissed, it holds validity.

It was stated to a three or four year old girl by a man who hadn't actually seen Krillin fight in seven years and who hadn't seen Tenshinhan -at all- since the Cell Games, as far as we know. Does that actually seem like a reliable statement to you?

It would be credible if Yamcha saw Krillin and Tenshinhan both power up directly in front of him and then made the observation that Krillin is stronger. It's not credible when he's trying to be nice to a little girl and compliments her father.

Gohan-kun wrote:With that being said, I go with Kuririn > Ten. It makes sense that AT would make his favorite human the strongest.

So you've chosen to ignore all the examples of Tenshinhan's superior power in favor of a statement made by a man talking to his friend's toddler-age daughter? Didn't Krillin stop training after the Cell Games? Are you implying that the gap between Krillin and Tenshinhan is -so- enormous that Krillin could sit in Kame House watching television for seven years and -still- be stronger than Tenshinhan?

This is yet -another- example of why I consider dialogue to be a poor source of direct evidence in debates -- people tend to focus on one quote and ignore all of the evidence to the contrary because they're either incapable or unwilling to analyze contradictory events and derive an at least -vaguely- empirical conclusion.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 12:28 am

My take: Up to Tenshinhan's death he is stronger than Krillin. After Saichoru(sp?) increasing his PL, Krillin is stronger than Tenshinhan but not by much once Tenshinhan completed Kaio's training. This SMALL gap I personally feel stayed there untill the end of the Cell Games. Then Krillin retires so Boo saga Tenshinhan is 00ber stronger than Krillin.

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 12:44 am

Dayspring wrote:My take: Up to Tenshinhan's death he is stronger than Krillin. After Saichoru(sp?) increasing his PL, Krillin is stronger than Tenshinhan but not by much once Tenshinhan completed Kaio's training. This SMALL gap I personally feel stayed there untill the end of the Cell Games. Then Krillin retires so Boo saga Tenshinhan is 00ber stronger than Krillin.

I like that scenario -- although didn't Krillin's power level only increase by ten times or so when his "hidden power" was released on Namek? Tenshinhan might have actually been able to multiply his own power level by that factor during his months of training with Kaio-sama in 10x Earth gravity.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 12:46 am

Ya, I would have to agree with you on this one Dayspring. Towards the end, Kuririn was just waaay too much out of his league. Whereas Tenshinhan never gave up on his solitary life of training.

Kanzenshuu

Human power levels.

Human power levels.

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