Would these black characters by today's standards be changed

[Gaffer Tape]

That is so weird. I own that issue of Gamefan. It's the only issue of Gamefan I own or have ever owned.

[Herms]

Racism doesn't have to be intentional. A lot of it springs from ignorance. I went to Japan on a study abroad a few years back, and even then I was questioned about whether I found black people (who there are still very few of in Japan) scary. I would absolutely consider Japan a largely racist culture. It doesn't have to be malicious to be harmful.

There's a good quote from the Doctor Who fan blog TARDIS Eruditorum that discusses a similar problem in old 60s episodes of that series:

"That's what racism is most of the time. It's not all white-hooded KKK members and Enoch Powell shouting about rivers of blood. It's people getting so inured to things that they stop being capable of noticing on their own that the only times they put a black man on the show are when they need a mute strongman. I don't think Davis and Pedler wrote Toberman in while cackling about how this will put black people in their place. I think they wrote him in, along with the rest of the residents of Shiftystan, without even managing to string the thought 'Gee, what are we saying about other ethnicities here' together. Racism, like most forms of discrimination, isn't about conscious malice, but about unconscious failures to even notice that there's a problem. More often than not, discrimination is just a particular flavor of stupidity."

[Gokuden]

That is so weird. I own that issue of Gamefan. It's the only issue of Gamefan I own or have ever owned.

LOL, it must have been a must-have back in the day for some reason. Nobody can remember.

[Fizzer]

We should play the "Let's redesign Popo to make him socially acceptable by today's standards yet still mystical and cool" game

[Kingdom Heartless]

"That's what racism is most of the time. It's not all white-hooded KKK members and Enoch Powell shouting about rivers of blood. It's people getting so inured to things that they stop being capable of noticing on their own that the only times they put a black man on the show are when they need a mute strongman. I don't think Davis and Pedler wrote Toberman in while cackling about how this will put black people in their place. I think they wrote him in, along with the rest of the residents of Shiftystan, without even managing to string the thought 'Gee, what are we saying about other ethnicities here' together. Racism, like most forms of discrimination, isn't about conscious malice, but about unconscious failures to even notice that there's a problem. More often than not, discrimination is just a particular flavor of stupidity."

I don't think I've seen those episodes. The earliest episodes I recall seeing people of different ethnicity in was The War Games, which surprised me in how it did it in a positive way. Not anything heroic, I suppose, it's more that there was nothing overtly negative about any of the different races portrayed.

[Attitudefan]

With everything said, Kingdom Heartless was pretty on the money.

And yes, whitewashing all the features is just as racist; something that many people seem to not consider. I guess, to not offend anyone, all characters should be a shade of grey, where they have no point of origin except mother earth.

Uub was a South Asian type character, or North African type character, I honestly see no black in him.

Black's features are no better than Red's like someone pointed out: look, Red is short with RED hair, which only white people can have gasp). And don't get me started on how blue plays off nationalist and racist stereotypes... Guys, Black was portrayed as a strong smart character; shouldn't we take character qualities over looks? isn't that what we are taught?

And to those making comments on "privileged whites" see down town Vancouver, or better yet, see South Africa. Mandela's policies turned a 180 over there.

[Rocketman]

I should point out that I don't have a problem with Officer Black. The lips are kinda borderline, but the rest of his portrayal is fine so it weighs out.

The zoo driver (in appearance) and Popo (in everything), however, are classic racist depictions of black people.

[TRL]

I guess my concept of racism is not as broad as some of yours is. I consider it only when there's intent to harm or discriminate. Otherwise I just call it stereotypical thinking, which we all do. Who hasn't jokingly portrayed an asian by pulling your eyelids?

Original concept sketches do show mr. Popo to have originally been fish/lizard like. You can see the lips there already.

[Cipher]

And yes, whitewashing all the features is just as racist; something that many people seem to not consider. I guess, to not offend anyone, all characters should be a shade of grey, where they have no point of origin except mother earth.

Um, yes. I said that.

But can we agree that there's a step between facial whitewashing and straight-up borrowing Sambo imagery for your mystical servant character?

I should point out that I don't have a problem with Officer Black. The lips are kinda borderline, but the rest of his portrayal is fine so it weighs out.

The zoo driver (in appearance) and Popo (in everything), however, are classic racist depictions of black people.

Agreed.

Original concept sketches do show mr. Popo to have originally been fish/lizard like. You can see the lips there already.

Did ... did you just ignore the fact that he was almost just as, if not more racially insensitive based on the bottom center designs, which coincidentally also bring the turban into play?

Or are you seriously saying you think Toriyama lifted the design from classic black and Oriental stereotypes and then added lizard lips we're all mistaking for another element of the stereotype?

Because that seems pretty unlikely. Just IMO.

[Herms]

The zoo guy, he makes my eye wince a little. And I think he looked different in the Viz release of Dr. Slump. Don't know where my volume with him is, but I don't recall him looking like that.

I don't quite remember either, but I think he's fairly early on. He looks like that in the Slump kanzenban, so I'd assume Viz tried to dial down his "racist caricature" factor a few notches. In Japanese he also speaks about as bad as Popo, if not worse. Not really one of Toriyama's finer moments. Slump has quite a few such characters, and interestingly some of them were edited to look less caricature-y for the kanzenban release, though the zoo guy wasn't one of them.

I don't think I've seen those episodes. The earliest episodes I recall seeing people of different ethnicity in was The War Games, which surprised me in how it did it in a positive way. Not anything heroic, I suppose, it's more that there was nothing overtly negative about any of the different races portrayed.

The serial under discussion in the quote was "Tomb of the Cybermen", which came right after "Evil of the Daleks", featuring a very similar mute-black-strongman character. Another one pops up later in "Terror of the Autons". But there are more positive examples like you said; Doctor Who's stance on race in the 60s/70s is all over the place.

[TRL]

Did ... did you just ignore the fact that he was almost just as, if not more racially insensitive based on the bottom center designs, which coincidentally also bring the turban into play?

Or are you seriously saying you think Toriyama lifted the design from classic black and Oriental stereotypes and then added lizard lips we're all mistaking for another element of the stereotype?

Because that seems pretty unlikely. Just IMO.

You mean the old guy looking concept? I thought that was ment to more resemble Kami. I'm not even sure anymore how you are seeing race in that. I'm sure Toriyama must have associated the big lips with the stereotype but the concepts do show, that's not from where the design started.

[Cipher]

You mean the old guy looking concept? I thought that was ment to more resemble Kami. I'm not even sure anymore how you are seeing race in that. I'm sure Toriyama must have associated the big lips with the stereotype but the concepts do show, that's not from where the design started.

It's the monkey-like mouth mouth more than anything, which is also a trope of racist caricatures. Although I might have been less likely to pick up on it did it not coincide with the turban, were that type of design not a relative rarity in Dragon Ball, and were I not aware of where Mr. Popo ultimately went.

In Japanese he also speaks about as bad as Popo, if not worse. Not really one of Toriyama's finer moments. Slump has quite a few such characters, and interestingly some of them were edited to look less caricature-y for the kanzenban release, though the zoo guy wasn't one of them.

Doesn't this cement it more than anything? Sure, it reflects the ignorance and unfamiliarity with other races of his culture more than any malicious agenda, but Toriyama definitely made use of offensive black caricatures in his work. And I think it's obvious Mr. Popo falls into that category.

It's excusable for its time and place, but not an aspect of Dragon Ball worth preserving in future incarnations.

[Gokuden]

It's excusable for its time and place, but not an aspect of Dragon Ball worth preserving in future incarnations.

This behemoth of a character was pretty recent:

Have a look at what he said:

"Blonde hair!? Blue eyes!? Super strength!? I should be recruiting them..."
— Dragon Ball Z: Fusion Reborn

Moreover, the ultimate hint as to who he is can be found in the Shin Budokai Series, a very recent series:

Although unseen, a reference to The Dictator is made in the game Dragon Ball Z: Shin Budokai. While looking at some zombies and other revived creatures, present Trunks comments about a person who catches his eye, he has seen him in a picture book of some kind, and that both he and Goten studied about him. Also, that he was in one of Gohan's text books, what comically, according to Trunks and Goten, means that he is a monster as well.

Did this offend you, or did you just take it as a piece of history within the game?

[Herms]

In Japanese he also speaks about as bad as Popo, if not worse. Not really one of Toriyama's finer moments. Slump has quite a few such characters, and interestingly some of them were edited to look less caricature-y for the kanzenban release, though the zoo guy wasn't one of them.

Doesn't this cement it more than anything? Sure, it reflects the ignorance and unfamiliarity with other races of his culture more than any malicious agenda, but Toriyama definitely made use of offensive black caricatures in his work. And I think it's obvious Mr. Popo falls into that category.

Not sure if this was meant for me or TRL, but I don't defend Toriyama's use of racist caricatures, if that wasn't clear from my last two posts.

[Fox666]

Doesn't this cement it more than anything? Sure, it reflects the ignorance and unfamiliarity with other races of his culture more than any malicious agenda, but Toriyama definitely made use of offensive black caricatures in his work. And I think it's obvious Mr. Popo falls into that category.

It's excusable for its time and place, but not an aspect of Dragon Ball worth preserving in future incarnations.

I don't really care much about it, it's just a comic book.

Besides Dragon Ball is filled with stereotypes, it is everywhere. Stereotypes of fat people, stereotypes of old people, stereotypes of short people, stereotypes of gay, stereotypes of ugly people, stereotypes or poor people, stereotypes of rich people, stereotypes of monsters... why is Mr. Popo special? Why is nobody saying how offensive it is for woman that Bulma is sexually promiscuous and that her character should be changed into a woman from victorian era?

[CaBrPi]

Besides Dragon Ball is filled with stereotypes, it is everywhere. Stereotypes of fat people, stereotypes of old people, stereotypes of short people, stereotypes of gay, stereotypes of ugly people, stereotypes or poor people, stereotypes of rich people, stereotypes of monsters... why is Mr. Popo special? Why is nobody saying how offensive it is for woman that Bulma is a slut and that her character should be changed into a woman from victorian era?

Because she's not really a slut? I mean, yeah, she's very much willing to show off her *panties* in order to get the magical plot devices that can give her anything she wants. She only showed more than that because Goku removed her panties (which she was unaware of). She wouldn't even let Kame-Sen'nin see her real boobs. That was all Oolong.

[Fox666]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slut

I think she falls in the definition. But if it bothers you I edited my post.

[Rocketman]

Why is nobody saying how offensive it is for woman that Bulma is sexually promiscuous and that her character should be changed into a woman from victorian era?

Because that is stupid and ass-backwards.

[CaBrPi]

She's also hardly promiscuous, and that's only one facet of her character. She also develops as a person over the course of the story.

Popo does only one thing: serve Kami (whether it's "Kami" or Dende), and has no such development.

[Herms]

As far as the series shows, Bulma's had what, two sexual partners tops? Maybe only one, since we don't really know how far she and Yamcha ever went. She's practically a Victorian already.

At any rate, do you think this topic's kind of exhausted? I only see things going in circles from here. Or just getting off-topic.