How come they didn't bring Gohan to fight Kid Buu?

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Re: How come they didn't bring Gohan to fight Kid Buu?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:32 pm

Amuro Ray wrote:Say's who, you? :roll:
Tell me where it's stated.
Amuro Ray wrote:I can see this argument is going nowhere, you are far to caught up in your own ignorance to be intellectually honest.
I could say the same about you. The difference is, I've countered all of you evidence that Pure Boo > Evil Boo. The manga makes it clear: Goku believes that he can't beat Evil Boo, Evil Boo gets stronger with the first transformation, then weaker with the second transformation, Goku believes he can beat Pure Boo.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: How come they didn't bring Gohan to fight Kid Buu?

Post by Darkprince410 » Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:36 pm

Amuro Ray wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Amuro Ray wrote:I never stated otherwise - but what is explicitly stated is "Kiddbuu" power is greater than that of "Superbuu."
But it's not. :|
Say's who, you? :roll:

I can see this argument is going nowhere, you are far to caught up in your own ignorance to be intellectually honest.
I think you were warned before about making such statements. There's no reason to be inconsiderate and rude towards those you're debating against.

It's not explicitly stated that Pure Buu is greater than Evil Buu because there are blatant contradictions to both sides that can't be ignored. Yes, Kibitoshin does say that Pure Buu is the most powerful and Goku says he's on a whole different level than any of the other Buus he's fought, but those are anime only statements that could be ignored if you're looking at strictly canon comments. Even if you're including non-canon material, those statements contradict Goku's earlier and clear indicator that he didn't stand a chance against Evil Buu, but knew he could defeat Pure Buu.

The reason that these arguments tend not to go anywhere is because of all the gray area that exists in the anime and the manga that leave some people uncertain.

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Re: How come they didn't bring Gohan to fight Kid Buu?

Post by Amuro Ray » Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:46 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Amuro Ray wrote:Say's who, you? :roll:
Tell me where it's stated.
Amuro Ray wrote:I can see this argument is going nowhere, you are far to caught up in your own ignorance to be intellectually honest.
I could say the same about you. The difference is, I've countered all of you evidence that Pure Boo > Evil Boo. The manga makes it clear: Goku believes that he can't beat Evil Boo, Evil Boo gets stronger with the first transformation, then weaker with the second transformation, Goku believes he can beat Pure Boo.
I posted the scan just a page ago - do you want me to do it again?
Here is the first -
Image

Here is the second time -
Image


Nothing in you version of the story makes sense, it's nonsense and circular logic. Goku originally states that he couldn't beat "Fatbuu", but towards the end of the story, he flat our confesses that he could have, but didn't. Goku also says he can't beat "Superbuu"and a few panels later he is soloing "Kidbuu" while remarking it would have been easier if he had fused.

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Re: How come they didn't bring Gohan to fight Kid Buu?

Post by Amuro Ray » Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:53 pm

I explained if before, Goku is uncertain of his abilities in SSJ3 and I expanded on that point a few pages ago. For you to hold onto one statement and ignoring all the others I have made is absolutely infuriating.

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Re: How come they didn't bring Gohan to fight Kid Buu?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:53 pm

The first time, like I said so many times, it's true that Boo got stronger, but this doesn't seem the case when he transformed for a second time, judging by Goku's reaction.
Amuro Ray wrote:Nothing in you version of the story makes sense, it's nonsense and circular logic. Goku originally states that he couldn't beat "Fatbuu", but towards the end of the story, he flat our confesses that he could have, but didn't. Goku also says he can't beat "Superbuu"and a few panels later he is soloing "Kidbuu" while remarking it would have been easier if he had fused.
Kaioshin compared Pure Boo with Innocent Boo (the fat one), not Evil Boo. Goku also says he could beat Innocent Boo, but he never said that he could beat Evil Boo. He actually said that he & Vegeta together didn't stand a chance.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: How come they didn't bring Gohan to fight Kid Buu?

Post by Hitiro » Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:00 pm

Amuro Ray wrote:Nothing in you version of the story makes sense, it's nonsense and circular logic. Goku originally states that he couldn't beat "Fatbuu", but towards the end of the story, he flat our confesses that he could have, but didn't. Goku also says he can't beat "Superbuu"and a few panels later he is soloing "Kidbuu" while remarking it would have been easier if he had fused.
He doesn't say he couldn't beat Fat Boo, he dodges the question with "maybe's" and "I don't know" he never flat out states he stood no chance against Fat Boo. And Piccolo could see he had the upper hand which is why he asked if he went all out could he beat him. Goku also dodges the question by saying he's not of that world anymore so he shouldn't be the one saving it. Also, in response to your scans here is the proof that Evil Boo "Super Boo" is stronger than Pure Boo "Kid Boo"
Strength Checker wrote:Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!
Goku < Evil Boo "Super Boo"
Strength Checker wrote:Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.
Note: "He’s shrunk" is chidzimu, which typically refers to physical shrinking (like with Bulma's Micro Band) and throughout DB is never used to refer to ki diminishing. So Vegeta's probably talking about how Boo’s body has shrunk. That doesn't mean Boo's ki didn't go down too, but it's not what Vegeta's talking about here.
Strength Checker wrote:Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1-6
Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!
Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.”
Vegeta: “Eh?”
Goku: “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.”
Vegeta: “One minute?!”
Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!”
Vegeta: “…S …So you weren’t thinking of me…”
Goku > Pure Boo "Kid Boo"

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Re: How come they didn't bring Gohan to fight Kid Buu?

Post by Amuro Ray » Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:07 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:The first time, like I said so many times, it's true that Boo got stronger, but this doesn't seem the case when he transformed for a second time, judging by Goku's reaction.
Amuro Ray wrote:Nothing in you version of the story makes sense, it's nonsense and circular logic. Goku originally states that he couldn't beat "Fatbuu", but towards the end of the story, he flat our confesses that he could have, but didn't. Goku also says he can't beat "Superbuu"and a few panels later he is soloing "Kidbuu" while remarking it would have been easier if he had fused.
Kaioshin compared Pure Boo with Innocent Boo (the fat one), not Evil Boo. Goku also says he could beat Innocent Boo, but he never said that he could beat Evil Boo. He actually said that he & Vegeta together didn't stand a chance.
HUH? Where do you see that? Stop making things up!

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Re: How come they didn't bring Gohan to fight Kid Buu?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:09 pm

Amuro Ray wrote:HUH? Where do you see that? Stop making things up!
I'm not making things up, look at the final panel in the final page you posted. The scans you posted don't say anything that implies Pure Boo > Evil Boo.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: How come they didn't bring Gohan to fight Kid Buu?

Post by Amuro Ray » Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:11 pm

Hitiro wrote:
Amuro Ray wrote:Nothing in you version of the story makes sense, it's nonsense and circular logic. Goku originally states that he couldn't beat "Fatbuu", but towards the end of the story, he flat our confesses that he could have, but didn't. Goku also says he can't beat "Superbuu"and a few panels later he is soloing "Kidbuu" while remarking it would have been easier if he had fused.
He doesn't say he couldn't beat Fat Boo, he dodges the question with "maybe's" and "I don't know" he never flat out states he stood no chance against Fat Boo. And Piccolo could see he had the upper hand which is why he asked if he went all out could he beat him. Goku also dodges the question by saying he's not of that world anymore so he shouldn't be the one saving it. Also, in response to your scans here is the proof that Evil Boo "Super Boo" is stronger than Pure Boo "Kid Boo"

WHY Do I have to keep repeating myself?! Goku flat out admits he could have beaten Buu -
Image



Strength Checker wrote:Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!
Goku < Evil Boo "Super Boo"

I already addressed this multiple times.
Strength Checker wrote:Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.
Note: "He’s shrunk" is chidzimu, which typically refers to physical shrinking (like with Bulma's Micro Band) and throughout DB is never used to refer to ki diminishing. So Vegeta's probably talking about how Boo’s body has shrunk. That doesn't mean Boo's ki didn't go down too, but it's not what Vegeta's talking about here.
Strength Checker wrote:Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1-6
Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!
Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.”
Vegeta: “Eh?”
Goku: “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.”
Vegeta: “One minute?!”
Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!”
Vegeta: “…S …So you weren’t thinking of me…”
Goku > Pure Boo "Kid Boo"
I already stated as such.

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Re: How come they didn't bring Gohan to fight Kid Buu?

Post by Amuro Ray » Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:13 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Amuro Ray wrote:HUH? Where do you see that? Stop making things up!
I'm not making things up, look at the final panel in the final page you posted. The scans you posted don't say anything that implies Pure Boo > Evil Boo.
You know, except for the part where they state he's actually getting stronger.

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Re: How come they didn't bring Gohan to fight Kid Buu?

Post by Hitiro » Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:21 pm

Amuro Ray wrote: WHY Do I have to keep repeating myself?! Goku flat out admits he could have beaten Buu -
I didn't say Goku doesn't admit he could have beaten Fat Boo, I'm saying he never actually says he couldn't. We see him saying he could beat Fat Boo but in the beginning he doesn't say couldn't beat him in the beginning, he just dodges the point.
Amuro Ray wrote:
Strength Checker wrote:Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!
Goku < Evil Boo "Super Boo"

I already addressed this multiple times.
I've not seen you address this whatsoever.
Amuro Ray wrote:
Strength Checker wrote:Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.
Note: "He’s shrunk" is chidzimu, which typically refers to physical shrinking (like with Bulma's Micro Band) and throughout DB is never used to refer to ki diminishing. So Vegeta's probably talking about how Boo’s body has shrunk. That doesn't mean Boo's ki didn't go down too, but it's not what Vegeta's talking about here.
Strength Checker wrote:Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1-6
Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!
Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.”
Vegeta: “Eh?”
Goku: “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.”
Vegeta: “One minute?!”
Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!”
Vegeta: “…S …So you weren’t thinking of me…”
Goku > Pure Boo "Kid Boo"

I already stated as such.
Not saying you didn't I'm just pointing out that Goku is stronger the Pure Boo but weaker than Evil Boo so Evil Boo > Pure Boo.
Last edited by Hitiro on Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: How come they didn't bring Gohan to fight Kid Buu?

Post by Darkprince410 » Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:31 pm

Amuro Ray wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Amuro Ray wrote:HUH? Where do you see that? Stop making things up!
I'm not making things up, look at the final panel in the final page you posted. The scans you posted don't say anything that implies Pure Boo > Evil Boo.
You know, except for the part where they state he's actually getting stronger.
Yes, they said he was getting stronger when they show him transforming into the state he was in when he initially absorbed South Kaioushin (confirmed by Rou Kaioushin in the manga), then it's stated that he's transforming a second time, and they go from a panicked state (due to Buu being stronger than the already unbeatable form he was in) to one where Vegeta is making fun of his size and Goku is confident that they can handle it. Even without explicitly saying that his power has dropped, they've still strongly indicated that his strength has dropped significantly. You may be able to dismiss Vegeta's berating of his size as not being evidence to support it, but you have to take into account that Goku is also there, and Goku has shown time and again that he doesn't judge a fighter's strength based on their appearance. For him to be adamant against fighting Evil Buu because he knows he can't win to knowing that he can defeat Pure Buu means that he isn't taking Pure Buu's size into account at all, and is judging it solely by Buu's power.

Also, I don't see where you're getting the notion that he was unsure of his Super Saiya-jin 3 power, since he showed no indication of being uncertain of its capabilities whatsoever.

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Re: How come they didn't bring Gohan to fight Kid Buu?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:43 pm

Amuro Ray wrote:WHY Do I have to keep repeating myself?! Goku flat out admits he could have beaten Buu -
He admits he could have beaten the fat Boo, not Evil/Super Boo.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: How come they didn't bring Gohan to fight Kid Buu?

Post by Amuro Ray » Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:03 pm

Darkprince410 wrote:
Amuro Ray wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote: I'm not making things up, look at the final panel in the final page you posted. The scans you posted don't say anything that implies Pure Boo > Evil Boo.
You know, except for the part where they state he's actually getting stronger.
Yes, they said he was getting stronger when they show him transforming into the state he was in when he initially absorbed South Kaioushin (confirmed by Rou Kaioushin in the manga), then it's stated that he's transforming a second time, and they go from a panicked state (due to Buu being stronger than the already unbeatable form he was in) to one where Vegeta is making fun of his size and Goku is confident that they can handle it. Even without explicitly saying that his power has dropped, they've still strongly indicated that his strength has dropped significantly. You may be able to dismiss Vegeta's berating of his size as not being evidence to support it, but you have to take into account that Goku is also there, and Goku has shown time and again that he doesn't judge a fighter's strength based on their appearance. For him to be adamant against fighting Evil Buu because he knows he can't win to knowing that he can defeat Pure Buu means that he isn't taking Pure Buu's size into account at all, and is judging it solely by Buu's power.

Also, I don't see where you're getting the notion that he was unsure of his Super Saiya-jin 3 power, since he showed no indication of being uncertain of its capabilities whatsoever.
:crazy:
All I can do is laugh at this nonsense - now you're twisting the story and adding in material that was never mentioned before to suit what YOU want it to say. It wasn't stated, and it wasn't implied at any point. I even posted the panels showing two different people commenting on his increased power, and the anime agrees on these facts.

I pointed out before, Goku denied that he could have beaten BUU -
Image

But later on with Vegeta present, he recants on his words and flat out admits that he could have beaten BUU the first time they fought. We see again seeing Goku claiming that they were no match for Buu, but a few panels later, Goku us soloing Buu by himself. We also have context clues that Goku is uncertain about his abilities in SSJ3 - it's not about pure output, it's about endurance, and Goku isn't sure he could endure the strain on his body.

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Re: How come they didn't bring Gohan to fight Kid Buu?

Post by Li'l Lemmy » Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:25 pm

This is an open letter to whomever cares, which I sincerely hope to be "everybody".

I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade... I really, really don't... but just for my own reference, is there some legitimate "reason" that strength debates almost always have to turn into strength arguments? (There's a fair difference between "debate" and "argument" that seems lost on some of us, in my opinion.) It's completely unattractive when an interesting topic degenerates into the sort of petty bickering that seems to typify these sorts of discussions, and it reflects badly on our community and the fandom as a whole when in fact this community is meant to represent the best that DragonBall fandom has to offer.

I say this as someone who saw the thread title, considered that I may have something worthwhile to add, and immediately became discouraged after reading two pages in only to find that people were (rudely) demanding of other people to prove this and rethink that with that oh-so-cliche "you're wrong and I'm right" manner of unpleasant tone... which tends to be this strange, unfathomable commonality when it comes to chit-chat about what character is less/more/most powerful.

What's with the condescending attitudes and e-penis contests? Can't we discuss the ins and outs of something without it becoming personal?

What's with the use of red? Shouldn't boldface text be enough to emphasize a point without shouting it in red? O_o

What's with so many threads lately, often unrelated to strength, becoming about strength to begin with?

Seriously, I'm just asking. Opinions are fine, but when it comes to expressing them I just happen to think that we're so much better than this. We have good reason to hold ourselves to a higher standard, and with regards to said standard I'm a little concerned by the manner in which we've been conducting ourselves as of late.

I apologize if I'm overreacting. Thank you for your time.


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Re: How come they didn't bring Gohan to fight Kid Buu?

Post by InfernalVegito » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:21 am

It's because almost nothing is ever really stated as an irrefutable fact anywhere to begin with. Everbody has his own interpretation of the source material and therefore there will never be a true agreement on these issues (not that this is inherently bad). However, because of the gray area nature of these matters, and the common black and white thinking (not saying everyone is like that), such discussions are often subject to transform into heated debates. That's not just here like that, but everywhere and it will never end unless Akira comes and declares what is what and what is not, since the majority of people will only believe the be-all and end-all author of the fictional work when it comes to this stuff.

Sorry for being offtopic. Please continue.
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Re: How come they didn't bring Gohan to fight Kid Buu?

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:34 am

Saiga wrote:
Marco Polo wrote: But Gohan IS an Earthling, WAS born on Earth, and IS part Human :(
:lol: Too true. Damn it, Vegeta!
Perhaps Vegeta figured Gohan would somehow fuck it up. Buu can still absorb things when he feels pressured. Another Buuhan wouldn't exactly be a good thing. A Super Genki Drama wouldn't kill him.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours."
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Hitiro
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Re: How come they didn't bring Gohan to fight Kid Buu?

Post by Hitiro » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:35 am

Amuro Ray wrote:But later on with Vegeta present, he recants on his words and flat out admits that he could have beaten BUU the first time they fought. We see again seeing Goku claiming that they were no match for Buu, but a few panels later, Goku us soloing Buu by himself. We also have context clues that Goku is uncertain about his abilities in SSJ3 - it's not about pure output, it's about endurance, and Goku isn't sure he could endure the strain on his body.
Strength Checker wrote:Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P10.5-8
Piccolo: “Goku…There’s something I want to ask you while I’ve got the chance…[ ] …That Super Saiyan 3 thing earlier…if you had gone all-out, wouldn’t you have been able to defeat Majin Boo?...How about it, am I wrong?”
Goku: “Nah, I don’t know…When it comes to Majin Boo’s strength, it’s like a lie…I think that I probably couldn't have won…”
This conversation between Goku and Piccolo is riddled with maybe's, probably's and uncertainties. Its in a completely different context than when he said about fighting Evil Boo. Goku flat out states he couldn't win against Evil Boo whereas with Fat Boo its just an uncertainty. Perhaps because he hadn't seen the full strength of Fat Boo.
Strength Checker wrote:Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!

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Re: How come they didn't bring Gohan to fight Kid Buu?

Post by Hitiro » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:52 am

TheMightyOzaru wrote:Perhaps Vegeta figured Gohan would somehow fuck it up. Buu can still absorb things when he feels pressured. Another Buuhan wouldn't exactly be a good thing. A Super Genki Drama wouldn't kill him.
How are you sure a Genki Dama wouldn't kill him? You're assuming that Earth < Gohan + Kid Buu? Not enough details to really support that theory.

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Re: How come they didn't bring Gohan to fight Kid Buu?

Post by Darkprince410 » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:57 am

Amuro Ray wrote:
:crazy:
All I can do is laugh at this nonsense - now you're twisting the story and adding in material that was never mentioned before to suit what YOU want it to say. It wasn't stated, and it wasn't implied at any point. I even posted the panels showing two different people commenting on his increased power, and the anime agrees on these facts.

I pointed out before, Goku denied that he could have beaten BUU -
Image

But later on with Vegeta present, he recants on his words and flat out admits that he could have beaten BUU the first time they fought. We see again seeing Goku claiming that they were no match for Buu, but a few panels later, Goku us soloing Buu by himself. We also have context clues that Goku is uncertain about his abilities in SSJ3 - it's not about pure output, it's about endurance, and Goku isn't sure he could endure the strain on his body.
That's not uncertainty at all. He said that he wasn't sure/couldn't defeat Fat Buu just to instill the need for the boys to master the fusion dance even more (in short, he lied to Piccolo, hence the grin). In his "recant" as you put it, he clearly indicates that part of the reason why he didn't defeat Fat Buu back then was because he wanted the boys to be able to handle it and not rely on him to win.
Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P11.4-6
Context: as Goku prepares to fight Boo
Goku: “Alrii~~iight. I’d better go all out right from the start…! If we get done in, then the entire universe will go ‘poof’…”
Vegeta: “Let me see this ‘Super Saiyan 3’ thing with my own eyes…”
Goku: “Is that alright? You just might not get your turn…I can say this now, but the truth is that with that fat Boo, I would have been able to defeat him at the time with Super Saiyan 3…However, I wanted the young guys to manage something…For the Earth’s sake too…
This means that he knew full well he could have defeated Fat Buu when he told Piccolo that he didn't think he could, thus he lied to him about it, and in turn wasn't unsure of his strength at all.

It'd be one thing if Goku actually physically fought Evil Buu after he made that comment, but he never did. It's clear that Goku's entire confrontation with Evil Buu inside Buu's body was a bluff on Goku's part. He had absolutely no reason to lie to Vegeta about their chances at defeating Buu on their own, but had every reason to lie to Evil Buu about how powerful he was in order to try and bluff his way out of a confrontation. He knew full well he stood absolutely no chance of actually beating him in a one-on-one battle, or even a two-on-one fight with Vegeta assisting him, but he was hoping that his feigned confidence would convince Buu of how powerful he was.

Vegeta clearly indicates as he and Goku are watching Buu revert to Pure Buu that he's undergoing another transformation after having first seen him revert from Evil Buu to the "Buff" Buu form he had when he absorbed South Kaioushin.
Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P2.3-7, P3.3
Context: after reverting to his South Kaioshin form, Boo continues to change
Vegeta: “…Look…He intends to perform another transformation…”
[ ]
Goku: “…I wish he’d cut that out…”
Kaioshin: “Th-this can’t be…it’s impossible…He’s cha-changing back…”
*Boo changes back into his pure form*
Kaioshin: “…I…I knew it…”
So this is taking place after it's stated that he's getting stronger, so he has already transformed into the state that they said was "getting stronger".

Then, after he's finished with the second transformation, Goku and Vegeta have this exchange.
Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.
What were Goku and Vegeta setting out to do earlier that he'd feel the need to exclaim that "We did it!" and they might be able to manage something? Weakening Buu down to where they'd be able to fight him as they are and not need to fuse.
Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”
So even excluding the line that you keep saying is irrelevant, it's clear that Goku and Vegeta were removing cocoons to weaken Buu to where they would be able to fight him with any chance of winning, and it was reverting him down from Evil Buu to Pure Buu that Goku finally felt they had achieved that.

Evil Buu ("we're still simply no match for his strength!") transforms into Kaioushin Buu (“H-hey…Vegeta…His ki is increasing, ain’t it…!?”), indicating a power increase.

Kaioushin Buu (“H-hey…Vegeta…His ki is increasing, ain’t it…!?”) transforms into Pure Buu ("We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.") indicates a significant power decrease.

As such, Pure Buu is significantly weaker than Evil Buu.

Everything I've said is in the manga. I'm not adding things or twisting things to try and make my side of the argument more convincing.

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