Is filler as simple as just that: it's filler?

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
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ABED
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Re: Fillers as simple as.. That?

Post by ABED » Sat Sep 28, 2013 7:33 pm

Gohan's adventures told me nothing I already did not know about him.
Yeah, because Toriyama said it but this showed it.
No point in building up courage if it leads to absolutely nothing
It didn't lead to nothing. I don't know how you can say it lead to nothing.
Gohan will forget about the Robot and the Orphans as they affected nothing.
It made him more mature than he had been. He grew up, but there's a big difference between those experiences and battle which he wouldn't have been able to get through had he not spent those six months on his own. The filler gives the audience more time with a new character instead of just asking the audience to accept him and be sad for him. It also does a better job at showing Gohan's connection with Piccolo so that when the moment happens it makes a lot of sense and doesn't feel out of place.

There was nothing natural about Goku's "progression". He lies about being able to stop an enemy which he has no reason to and never did before, and he doesn't clean up his own mess. That's out of character. At least with Vegeta he was planning on defeating him in the rematch. There's no progression because nothing in Goku's past leads me to think it's a natural direction for his character to go.
I guess you just don't like Goku's natural character progression and you just hate the new Goku as he once again puts everyone at risk to help himself in a fight. Toriyama kept him like this FOR A REASON. Toriyama re-read the manga and still kept him like this. So no it's in character if Toriyama still thinks it is.
This assumes a writer can't make a mistake in characterization. That "reason" is bad writing. Toriyama forgets facts, makes continuity errors, has characters withhold information from other characters just to keep it from the audience even though it makes no sense.

Gohan is a five year old and by and large a typical kid at that age. It's perfectly understandable that despite Gohan's training, he would have a moment of crisis. However, he does get over it. You keep acting like that's all Gohan did in the battle. He grew during the fight. "Puss out" is harsh but it's juvenile. Can't you come up with something more mature than that?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Fillers as simple as.. That?

Post by dbzfan7 » Sat Sep 28, 2013 7:47 pm

ABED wrote:Yeah, because Toriyama said it but this showed it.
Which is why it was pointless.
It didn't lead to nothing. I don't know how you can say it lead to nothing.
Yes it did. I wasted my time seeing Gohan stay with these people only to not think about them ever again. Wonder why?
It made him more mature than he had been. He grew up, but there's a big difference between those experiences and battle which he wouldn't have been able to get through had he not spent those six months on his own. The filler gives the audience more time with a new character instead of just asking the audience to accept him and be sad for him. It also does a better job at showing Gohan's connection with Piccolo so that when the moment happens it makes a lot of sense and doesn't feel out of place.
He matured with Piccolo, a guy who he connected with and always stayed connected with. Those filler losers were forgotten because they meant nothing. Piccolo is the one who made him more mature, we don't need some Orphans and a Robot to do that. This filler gives us pointless adventures that act like they have a meaning, but will never be referenced ever again. It's as if they never happened. I wonder why? There is no point in the filler development. That filler time should have gone to Piccolo and not little shits and a robot. With Piccolo we know he would stick around and that filler would have meant something. The little shits and the robot can sit right next to Lime as worthless characters who did nothing.
There was nothing natural about Goku's "progression". He lies about being able to stop an enemy which he has no reason to and never did before, and he doesn't clean up his own mess. That's out of character. At least with Vegeta he was planning on defeating him in the rematch. There's no progression because nothing in Goku's past leads me to think it's a natural direction for his character to go.
Or maybe you just didn't know Goku like the people who think he's a super hero. He does time and time again. This is nothing new. Letting Vegeta go could have costed people their lives. And it did. The Nameks lost a tribe because of that.
This assumes a writer can't make a mistake in characterization.
Or maybe the character you like isn't as great as you thought he was.
Gohan is a five year old and by and large a typical kid at that age. It's perfectly understandable that despite Gohan's training, he would have a moment of crisis. However, he does get over it. You keep acting like that's all Gohan did in the battle. He grew during the fight. "Puss out" is harsh but it's juvenile. Can't you come up with something more mature than that?
[/quote]

Age doesn't matter, he was raised sheltered his whole life and he acts cowardly because of it. A normal 12 year old would shit themselves at what Goku did. Gohan was then toughened up by Piccolo. But since Gohan didn't go on any stupid adventures he didn't learn the what he needed to protect and so remained scared. He then learned his lesson after the saga was over and wanted to redeem himself by going to namek. That's character progression, not some shitty filler that lead to nothing.
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Re: Fillers as simple as.. That?

Post by TheGmGoken » Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:23 pm

Yes it did. I wasted my time seeing Gohan stay with these people only to not think about them ever again. Wonder why?
NOT EVEN IN OTHER FILLERS :o
He then learned his lesson after the saga was over and wanted to redeem himself by going to namek. That's character progression, not some shitty filler that lead to nothing.
Even though I like the filler of Gohan. I agree with this.
It made him more mature than he had been. He grew up,
No he didn't. He was just as much of a crybaby as he was when he first got caught,
Gohan's connection with Piccolo so that when the moment happens it makes a lot of sense and doesn't feel out of place.
It felt out of place? Explain please. If removing this filler how would Piccolo and Gohan be out of place. Gohan treated Piccolo like he was NORMAL. Something no one has done.
There was nothing natural about Goku's "progression". He lies about being able to stop an enemy which he has no reason to and never did before, and he doesn't clean up his own mess. That's out of character. At least with Vegeta he was planning on defeating him in the rematch. There's no progression because nothing in Goku's past leads me to think it's a natural direction for his character to go.
It was natural. He became a better person when he stopped killing people with less mercy than he future self. Goku then learns then some people need to be dead. After that he seen everything. So he just want to find that person who is truly stronger than him or CAN be stronger than him so he can challenge himself and train harder OR find a protecter of Earth. Which Gohan and Gotenks fucked up.

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Re: Fillers as simple as.. That?

Post by ABED » Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:12 am

This filler gives us pointless adventures that act like they have a meaning, but will never be referenced ever again.
As if the point of something is to be referenced later on. It's about the moment.

Gohan didn't learn the lesson about bravery AFTER the Vegeta arc. You keep forgetting that he did toughen up during the battle.
No he didn't. He was just as much of a crybaby as he was when he first got caught,
Nope, watch it again and you see that he matured. You keep saying "nothing" even though not only do you dismiss canon where Gohan does show bravery during the fight against Nappa and against Vegeta.

Of course age matters. Yes, in conjunction with how he was raised, it would lead to him being scared but why do you insist on saying he "pussed out"? As if it's not completely understandable that he would be frightened.

Letting Vegeta go could have costed people their lives. And it did. The Nameks lost a tribe because of that.
he doesn't do it time and time again. He let Vegeta go, but was going to clean up his own mess. During the Buu arc, he wasn't going to. Of course that's due to a retcon.
Or maybe the character you like isn't as great as you thought he was.
Maybe you like blaming him when it's the writer's fault for not understanding his own character.
It felt out of place? Explain please.
Because the more time you spend with Piccolo and Gohan, it's easier to understand why he would die for the son of his enemy. It's okay in the Manga but the moment is more meaningful when the relationship feels more organic.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Fillers as simple as.. That?

Post by Revolution » Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:19 am

To me the biggest thing I took from his time away under piccolo was the bond .. Friendship, they developed that carried through the rest of the series'
Frieza?! .. You fool!!!!!

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Re: Fillers as simple as.. That?

Post by TheGmGoken » Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:26 am

Because the more time you spend with Piccolo and Gohan, it's easier to understand why he would die for the son of his enemy. It's okay in the Manga but the moment is more meaningful when the relationship feels more organic.
Really thought it was more meaningful in the manga. Piccolo just wanted someone to treat him like he's not a jackass piece of shit. We didn't need(Though I did like) those "organic" moments.
Maybe you like blaming him when it's the writer's fault for not understanding his own character.
So you understand Goku more? :lolno: Not every character have that Superman Persona. If you notice Goku changes every few arc. He went from killing when someone deserves to be killed to sparing people life to learning that not everyone needs to be spared to seeing everything. Now he just want someone stronger than himself so he can challenge himself. I'm pretty sure Goku is bored deep inside of not having anyone who can rival him that's a fighter(Gohan is a hero. Not a fighter).
Nope, watch it again and you see that he matured. You keep saying "nothing" even though not only do you dismiss canon where Gohan does show bravery during the fight against Nappa and against Vegeta.

Of course age matters. Yes, in conjunction with how he was raised, it would lead to him being scared but why do you insist on saying he "pussed out"? As if it's not completely understandable that he would be frightened.

Letting Vegeta go could have costed people their lives. And it did. The Nameks lost a tribe because of that.
he doesn't do it time and time again. He let Vegeta go, but was going to clean up his own mess. During the Buu arc, he wasn't going to. Of course that's due to a retcon.
I never said "nothing". I just giving flaws on both sides. Gohan got slightly angry when he kicked Nappa and we know what happens when Gohan is mad. Then when he fought Vegeta I recall Goku saying "Are you a coward? What did Piccolo teach you". That's when Gohan fought Vegeta. Both times aren't showing him grow up. Both times he was slightly angry(More like..when someone takes your toy). I said he pussed out because he did. He wasn't raised into fighting. So of course he was scared. I'm never said it was stupid. I'm saying he wasn't raised into fighting and age had NOTHING to do with it. Imagine Goku being raised as a scholar. You think he would't be a pussy when King Piccolo came or earlier in the story with Yamcha or Oolong? Aged had zero factor. Unless you think Goten is scarred of fighting now since his age is close to Gohan's during Saiyan Arc.

Goku left Vegeta go and regretted it. Even still Goku never knew Vegeta was just so happen to be working for Freeza who just so happens to be on Namek. Only Krillin "kinda" knew but didn't at the same time.

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Re: Fillers as simple as.. That?

Post by ABED » Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:41 pm

Piccolo just wanted someone to treat him like he's not a jackass piece of shit.
So in your opinion, Piccolo just needed a fwend? Awwww. Sorry, not buying the Demon King's offspring just wanting a friend and that making him a good guy. He deserved to be treated like crap, he tried to murder people. I find it much more real that after spending that much time with an innocent child, he grew attached. Those organic moments added to the characters. We saw their connection develop, not just inferred it.

Not every character have that Superman Persona.
Never claimed he was. I'm simply stating that he's not dishonest nor does he leave a mess with the intention of making others clean it up.
That's when Gohan fought Vegeta. Both times aren't showing him grow up.
You conveniently forgot Gohan going along with Piccolo's plan to grab Nappa's tail, and when Gohan went back to help his dad.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Fillers as simple as.. That?

Post by TheGmGoken » Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:48 pm

So in your opinion, Piccolo just needed a fwend? Awwww.
Way to be mature..
Sorry, not buying the Demon King's offspring just wanting a friend and that making him a good guy. He deserved to be treated like crap, he tried to murder people. I find it much more real that after spending that much time with an innocent child, he grew attached. Those organic moments added to the characters. We saw their connection develop, not just inferred it.
He wasn't even all that evil to be honest. He wasn't that bad just grumpy. Someone treated him like he has a heart(Going by if Nameks have a heart) and feelings. Thus creating a friendship. Classic storytelling. DB isn't the first to do it. So even without the filler. Piccolo and Gohan bond makes sense.
Not every character have that Superman Persona.
Never claimed he was. I'm simply stating that he's not dishonest nor does he leave a mess with the intention of making others clean it up.
Goku is dishonest. He lied to Chi Chi how many times? Goku is selfish and quite frankly a jerk. But he's a good jerk. He always been one. Just in a good way with no harm intended. Goku saw that someone might be able to surpass him and protect Earth while he dead. They failed so Goku did end of cleaning it up. Goku then wanted to someone to surpass him so he can challenge himself.
You conveniently forgot Gohan going along with Piccolo's plan to grab Nappa's tail, and when Gohan went back to help his dad.
And that is convenient because....? I can't remember every single aspect of the story. Not even the author could. So excuse me for not having DB at the top of my memory list. I don't deserve to be a fan. Gohan chicken out the first time he could attack Nappa. Nappa once again insulted Gohan(To which Gohan insulted back) as Gohan was walking from the fight. To bad Gohan went to his father only to pussy out....again

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Re: Fillers as simple as.. That?

Post by ABED » Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:04 pm

It's convenient because those moments poke holes in you point about Gohan not growing up in that arc.

I'll appologize for the "fwend" comment, but the point still stands.

How was Piccolo Jr. not evil? He tried to murder Goku and would've murdered his friends given the chance. If you bring up it being vengeance for his father, don't forget that Piccolo Daimao was the aggressor.

When did Goku lie to Chichi?
To bad Gohan went to his father only to pussy out....again
Huh? He didn't pussy out, he was kicked by a stronger opponent and hurt. That's not "pussying out". He's a green fighter and a young kid, he deserves the credit for even being in the fight when most people wouldn't have done what he did. Even with Goku's prodding, Gohan could still have remained frightened, but no, he fought. Quit trying to take away Gohan's bravery.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Fillers as simple as.. That?

Post by TheGmGoken » Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:10 pm

How was Piccolo Jr. not evil? He tried to murder Goku and would've murdered his friends given the chance. If you bring up it being vengeance for his father, don't forget that Piccolo Daimao was the aggressor.
Piccolo Jr wasn't THAT evil compared to Damio. He was a bad guy sure. But he's not 100% evil. Just grumpy. So when someone treated him like he had a heart he cared for them and made a friend.
When did Goku lie to Chichi?
Re-watch the Cell Arc.
Huh? He didn't pussy out, he was kicked by a stronger opponent and hurt. That's not "pussying out". He's a green fighter and a young kid, he deserves the credit for even being in the fight when most people wouldn't have done what he did. Even with Goku's prodding, Gohan could still have remained frightened, but no, he fought. Quit trying to take away Gohan's bravery.
"Daddy I'm to hurt to fight". Goku even called him a coward for saying something like that. Once again being a kid have NOTHING to do with it. He was FORCED to fight. He didn't have an option. So if someone else....like say Videl(Had Piccolo randomly found her) was forced to train by Piccolo she would be just like Gohan(Minus the rage...which can be fixed once a month). I'm not taking away his bravery. He was brave in the Freeza arc when he DID become brave after what Goku told Gohan what would Piccolo do. Which made Gohan fight.

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Re: Fillers as simple as.. That?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:41 pm

TheGmGoken wrote:Piccolo Jr wasn't THAT evil compared to Damio. He was a bad guy sure. But he's not 100% evil. Just grumpy. So when someone treated him like he had a heart he cared for them and made a friend.
Piccolo was 100% evil, since he was a Mazoku, until Goku showed mercy on him.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Fillers as simple as.. That?

Post by ABED » Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:42 pm

He wasn't as evil, but he was still evil. Attempted homicide isn't grumpiness.

Yes, too hurt to fight. He believed he couldn't fight due to physical pain, not overwhelming fear.

You are taking away Gohan's bravery, just because they told him what to do doesn't mean he had to do it. He could've run away, but he stayed and fought. Goku made an emotional outburst at that moment, you are taking his comment at face value.

the Cell arc is 70+ episodes, care to point me in the right direction? Are you talking about him promising chichi that Gohan wouldn't fight. He doesn't actually do that.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Fillers as simple as.. That?

Post by TheGmGoken » Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:43 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
TheGmGoken wrote:Piccolo Jr wasn't THAT evil compared to Damio. He was a bad guy sure. But he's not 100% evil. Just grumpy. So when someone treated him like he had a heart he cared for them and made a friend.
Piccolo was 100% evil, since he was a Mazoku, until Goku showed mercy on him.
I meant at the point of time he started to train Gohan.
Yes, too hurt to fight. He believed he couldn't fight due to physical pain, not overwhelming fear.
His fear of more pain. Hell when Vegeta appeared right in front of him he didn't attack he stood there in fear.
You are taking away Gohan's bravery, just because they told him what to do doesn't mean he had to do it. He could've run away, but he stayed and fought. Goku made an emotional outburst at that moment, you are taking his comment at face value.
He only stayed and fought cause Nappa insulted him. Before that he just walked away. "What would Piccolo Do?". Pretty sure Gohan cares for Piccolo and that became the reason why Gohan fight. Besides his "bravery" was later ended anyways.
Are you talking about him promising chichi that Gohan wouldn't fight. He doesn't actually do that.
"Promise me Gohan won't fight"

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Re: Fillers as simple as.. That?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:52 pm

TheGmGoken wrote:Goku is dishonest. He lied to Chi Chi how many times? Goku is selfish and quite frankly a jerk. But he's a good jerk. He always been one. Just in a good way with no harm intended.
I dont think jerk as the right generalization. A lot of his insensitivity towards his family is due to him being a country bumpkin, meaning he doesnt know better.

As for the training filler, I don't think they were trying to imply he will be badass just that he started being less of a spoiled little shit and realized direness in the situation. When he tried running back to his mom back at Mt. Paozu, he suddenly stops and runs back to Piccolo.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: Fillers as simple as.. That?

Post by ABED » Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:55 pm

That wasn't a lie, he didn't answer her.

His fear of more pain. Hell when Vegeta appeared right in front of him he didn't attack he stood there in fear.
Understandable, even Goku showed fear at moments when Vegeta overwhelms him. Not to sound trite, but bravery isn't the lack of fear, it's overcoming fear.
He only stayed and fought cause Nappa insulted him.
Really? The only reason he stayed is because Nappa called him a name?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Fillers as simple as.. That?

Post by TheGmGoken » Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:02 pm

I dont think jerk as the right generalization. A lot of his insensitivity towards his family is due to him being a country bumpkin, meaning he doesnt know better.
I honestly could't found the right word for it so I just said he was a jerk in a good way :lol: .
As for the training filler, I don't think they were trying to imply he will be badass just that he started being less of a spoiled little shit and realized direness in the situation. When he tried running back to his mom back at Mt. Paozu, he suddenly stops and runs back to Piccolo.
Hey hey hey. I LIKED the filler. I'm just saying some flaws in it.
That wasn't a lie, he didn't answer her.
Dishonest. A dishonest man would do they same thing.
Understandable, even Goku showed fear at moments when Vegeta overwhelms him. Not to sound trite, but bravery isn't the lack of fear, it's overcoming fear.
And Gohan did neither in the manga until he was either slightly angry or someone mentioned Piccolo
Really? The only reason he stayed is because Nappa called him a name?
Yes. Gohan walked away. Nappa insults him. Gohan insults him back. Gohan re enters the fight.

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Re: Fillers as simple as.. That?

Post by ABED » Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:06 pm

Dishonest. A dishonest man would do they same thing.
Not dishonest. He didn't tell her he wouldn't have Gohan fight. Not even close to telling Piccolo "I can't win".
Yes. Gohan walked away. Nappa insults him. Gohan insults him back. Gohan re enters the fight.
Post hoc ergo propter hoc. Just because Gohan comes back to the fight after he gets insulted doesn't make that the reason. It's illogical, Gohan cowers when Nappa tries to kill his allies but when Nappa says some mean words, that's what gets Gohan to stay?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Fillers as simple as.. That?

Post by TheGmGoken » Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:10 pm

Not dishonest. He didn't tell her he wouldn't have Gohan fight. Not even close to telling Piccolo "I can't win".
It was dishonest. He could have easily told her that he was during what's best for Earth and just flew away. Besides I honestly starting to doubt Goku could have 100% killed Fat Boo.
Post hoc ergo propter hoc. Just because Gohan comes back to the fight after he gets insulted doesn't make that the reason. It's illogical, Gohan cowers when Nappa tries to kill his allies but when Nappa says some mean words, that's what gets Gohan to stay?
It does makes it the reason cause had Nappa not said anything Gohan would have walked away with his head down. Like how he was during before Nappa insulted him.

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Re: Fillers as simple as.. That?

Post by dbzfan7 » Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:13 pm

ABED wrote:Gohan didn't learn the lesson about bravery AFTER the Vegeta arc. You keep forgetting that he did toughen up during the battle.
Yeah, during the battle with the Saiyans he developed. The filler however did nothing.
Maybe you like blaming him when it's the writer's fault for not understanding his own character.
You ever think you just don't understand Goku. He's not Superman. He does selfish things all the time.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!

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Re: Fillers as simple as.. That?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:18 pm

ABED wrote:That wasn't a lie, he didn't answer her.
It's a close relative, though.

Chi-Chi: Gohan not fightin', is he?

Goku: Huh...?

Chi-Chi: Promise me Gohan won't fight.

Goku: Well... bye bitch! *runs off and teloport*
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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