Dragon Ball and the Bechdel test.

[Hades]

I'm not saying she's a great person, but she gets an unwarranted amount of flack, and I think much of that is because she's a woman. Even if Walter did it for his family (it's clear that's not the case even in the beginning), he put his family in such a horrible position, that any temporary relief is justified. However, she does ultimately make some awful decisions, but the cheating was hardly one of the worst. She didn't treat Walter any worse than he treated her. The harsh judgment of characters like her and Pan feel unwarranted. Pan can be annoying but her relationship with her grandfather and Giru are sweet.

I'm not saying what Walker is doing is perfectly fine but that doesn't make what Skylar Walker does okay.

On a continuum of good and bad behavior, who was worse?

No, the worst character was Marie (dear god is she Breaking Bad's Pan)

[DBZAOTA482]

I'm not saying she's a great person, but she gets an unwarranted amount of flack, and I think much of that is because she's a woman. Even if Walter did it for his family (it's clear that's not the case even in the beginning), he put his family in such a horrible position, that any temporary relief is justified. However, she does ultimately make some awful decisions, but the cheating was hardly one of the worst. She didn't treat Walter any worse than he treated her. The harsh judgment of characters like her and Pan feel unwarranted. Pan can be annoying but her relationship with her grandfather and Giru are sweet.

I disagree. It isn't because Skyler White is a woman, it's because she "gets in the way" is that why people accentuate. I mean, you are basically supposed to sympathize with him being the protagonist and all so Skyler in turn winds up looking much worse than she really is (which is still bad). Plus she was always like that even from the beginning when he wasn't doing anything wrong

Also, those "sweet" are too far and few between, especially given how Pan generally treats them (at least in the first Saga). Plus Giru is even more annoying than she is (which is saying a lot).

[Kid Buu]

I don't get the Pan hate either. Videl's popular among fans, and they are basically the same character.

[DBZAOTA482]

I don't get the Pan hate either. Videl's popular among fans, and they are basically the same character.

Hey, at least Videl respects her elders and doesn't treat her friends like punching bags.

[ABED]

Plus Giru is even more annoying than she is

I like Giru. Never understood the hate for the character. Some make it sound like he's the Great Gazoo.

Pan can be annoying but her relationship with her grandfather and Giru are sweet.

When I watch Dragon Ball, I don't care about a young girl's relationship with here grandfather and an even more annoying waste of space robot, I want high octane OTT martial arts action with huge explosions and Pan never failed to get in the way of that.

GT got in the way of the action. The moment where Pan reaches Goku when he's a Great Ape is one of the best parts of the show.

[The Monkey King]

I don't get the Pan hate either. Videl's popular among fans, and they are basically the same character.

If Videl begged Gohan to take her to a front row seat to his fight with Super Buu or grabbed onto Goku as he was going to IT to the Otherworld then they'd be the same.
And Videl didn't take huge amounts of screentime doing nothing and being annoying

[ABED]

grabbed onto Goku as he was going to IT to the Otherworld then they'd be the same.

What does this mean?

[DBZAOTA482]

grabbed onto Goku as he was going to IT to the Otherworld then they'd be the same.

What does this mean?

That Pan is a bitchy brat who thinks she's always got to have her way.

[The Monkey King]

grabbed onto Goku as he was going to IT to the Otherworld then they'd be the same.

What does this mean?

Sorry about that.
I meant forcing her way to go to places where she doesn't belong, like how Pan stoyawayed on the space ship.

[ABED]

Can we put a moratorium on the word "bitch"?

I meant forcing her way to go to places where she doesn't belong, like how Pan stoyawayed on the space ship.

I don't see why just because they originally didn't want her to go that it reflects negatively on the character. The only thing that bothers me is when she tries to take credit where it wasn't warranted.

[FrogTrigger]

You know, I kind of wished Pan kept the Turtle School duds in GT. I did like her reaching out to her grandfather and her relationship with Goku was kind of a decent portrayal of that familial bond


And yes we can put a moratorium on the word, use beezy instead if you need a replacement guys.

For me I think GT could've had more involving action sequences but it's w/e

[Kid Buu]

I don't get the Pan hate either. Videl's popular among fans, and they are basically the same character.

Hey, at least Videl respects her elders and doesn't treat her friends like punching bags.

When did Pan treat her friends like a punching bag? Videl clearly didn't have much respect for Gohan if she blackmailed him to joining the tournament.

[DBZAOTA482]

I don't get the Pan hate either. Videl's popular among fans, and they are basically the same character.

Hey, at least Videl respects her elders and doesn't treat her friends like punching bags.

When did Pan treat her friends like a punching bag? Videl clearly didn't have much respect for Gohan if she blackmailed him to joining the tournament.

Pan was always abusing Giru, both physically and verbally (at least in the first Saga).

[Gyt Kaliba]

Imagine a country where by law women are not allowed to speak to each other. This country also mandates that its men exercise every day to reach a physical standard.

Which policy should be removed first?

I would have to side with Gaffer on this - they should both be removed at the same time ideally, both are disgusting.

That's the only thing I disagree with: that the fight against "isms" is now some kind of contest as to what group has it worse. And if the group you're touting has been decided by someone to not have it "as bad," then it's suddenly not allowed to even be discussed without a scoff of, "Well, how dare you talk about this when that needs attention?" What's the point? How is it relevant? How does that help? How can equality ever be reached when even our attempts to reach equality are treated as an opportunity to split us into groups and compete against each other? Where's the equality in treating sexism/racism/etcism against certain groups as more important than other groups? Doesn't that go against the very principles of such ideas?

EXACTLY. That's what annoys me so much about these debates usually, is that it often turns into one group saying how good the other has (even if they have it bad as well), so clearly THEY and their cause are the ones that really need addressed and helped. That's not equality, that's just focusing on one issue rather than others.

Again, I am in no way trying to say that there's not sexism and racism, but I hate to break it to some people - it happens to EVERYONE. No one sex, race, orientation, or etc. has a monopoly on being treated like shit by others because of it. Sadly the world we live in anyone and everyone can and will likely be treated badly for who they are at some point in their life. The problem goes much deeper than just one group's problems.

Because this bullshit exists only as a excuse to go "but what about the mennnnnnn" and then gloat about how you totally showed those feminists, then continue sitting on your hands doing jack shit to help women's or men's causes.

Wow...yeah, I'm sorry, but I take some offense to this too. I'll admit that I'm not able to get out and join in rights parades or the like (so far as I know nothing like that ever happens where I live anyway, and I don't exactly have the money to move out of this crappy little town to begin with), and I can't claim to know anything about your own situation - but how is your attempt to debunk my and other's arguments helping in reality either? "But what about the meeennn", you know what? I'll admit that's an apt flanderization of what I'm saying, to a degree. I am tired of seeing arguments that say all men are this way, or all men are that way, and nobody bats an eye. Allowing badmouthing of men is NOT the same as women's rights. It's just shifting hatred from one direction to another, and that doesn't help ANYONE.

I don't think entertainment has to be divided in feminist stuff and misogynistic stuff. Something can clearly not be feminist by any standards (like Dragon Ball), but it also doesn't mean that it's somehow against women. I agree that there could be more female characters in DB, and the ones that are in the series could be more fleshed out, but I understand that this story isn't exactly about that so that's ok too.

Exactly, and I agree wholeheartedly. Why does every story have to be some kind of 'standard', why can we not just sit down, enjoy something for what it is, and not get all huffy about what may or may not be 'kosher' in it's elements? Dragon Ball itself is pretty much the epitome of 'turn off your brain' entertainment.

Honestly, I'm more concerned with how often the female characters in Dragon Ball are used just to make more characters by having babies during timeskips than I am their lack of involvement in the main story (though I do wish Videl and 18 had been used more properly past their introductions) or whether or not they talk about men when they meet up.

Why? Loving couples having children is a fact of life, the only one which seems odd is Vegeta and Bulma. Also it helps the DB cast seem more real and organic, not like other shounen where the main characters stay teenagers forever, it shows that time is indeed passing and characters are getting older.

I think you may have misunderstood me. I'm not against characters aging and having children, I love stories that span generations - my issue is how, as the story progresses, that quickly becomes all that Dragon Ball female characters really bring to the table. Bulma is able to fight off this trope the most, but poor 18 succumbs to it, and she's a fighting female character, more so than any before or arguably after her. For her to get shoved aside only to give birth to another character (a character that likewise doesn't do anything) is pretty uncomfortable really.

[FrogTrigger]

I don't think anyone is saying all men are this way, but it's a significant enough issue with a number of men that it's brought up like that dude. That and Gaffer Tape, idk if you know this dude but generally all those 'isms are addressed together under the umbrella of intersectionality-sexism, racism, colonialism etc, even if addressed by different or specialist groups. They work together with other advocacy groups as well probably.

Basically I don't think it's something to get too wound up about when people bring up issues like this and mention things about men. If you feel what they're saying isn't about you, it might not be. That and while I understand where Gaffer and co are coming from, the kind of argument you guys are making is counterproductive and shuns any real discussion from happening in a way.

[Rocketman]

I would have to side with Gaffer on this - they should both be removed at the same time ideally, both are disgusting.

We do not live in an ideal world. Which policy should be removed first?

Exactly, and I agree wholeheartedly. Why does every story have to be some kind of 'standard', why can we not just sit down, enjoy something for what it is, and not get all huffy about what may or may not be 'kosher' in it's elements? Dragon Ball itself is pretty much the epitome of 'turn off your brain' entertainment.

Stories do not in exist in a vacuum.

[FrogTrigger]

And no one is saying dragon ball has to reach this standard, I mean lots of things in media don't. It was just an interesting thing to note I feel.

[UltimateHammerBro]

I would have to side with Gaffer on this - they should both be removed at the same time ideally, both are disgusting.

We do not live in an ideal world. Which policy should be removed first?

You're using "should", a conditional tense. So they should be removed at the same time, though I understand your position: you're trying to force someone into a situation in which they have no other choice but to say you're right.
One policy would be something like "women aren't good for anything but cleaning" and the other one "men aren't good for anything but exercising".
Is one of them better than the other? I'd like someone to dare to say yes.

[FrogTrigger]

I would have to side with Gaffer on this - they should both be removed at the same time ideally, both are disgusting.

We do not live in an ideal world. Which policy should be removed first?

You're using "should", a conditional tense. So they should be removed at the same time, though I understand your position: you're trying to force someone into a situation in which they have no other choice but to say you're right.
One policy would be something like "women aren't good for anything but cleaning" and the other one "men aren't good for anything but exercising".
Is one of them better than the other? I'd like someone to dare to say yes.

Switch it to training instead of exercising and ask a certain Saiyan prince?..... just kidding

[Rocketman]

You're using "should", a conditional tense. So they should be removed at the same time, though I understand your position: you're trying to force someone into a situation in which they have no other choice but to say you're right.
One policy would be something like "women aren't good for anything but cleaning" and the other one "men aren't good for anything but exercising".
Is one of them better than the other? I'd like someone to dare to say yes.

No, I'm trying to force people to recognize that there is a fundamental difference between the two restrictions.

Yes, both should be stopped.

BUT

Exercise is fundamentally good. It makes you live longer, it makes you stronger, etc etc. The method taken is bad, but the end result is an improvement in the men's lives.

The same cannot be said for gagging all women. That is the difference, that is why the gag order should be removed first; that is why the Bechdel test is valid, and why it is more important than "but the media tells me to not be a fatass therefore we're even nothing to be done everybody has troubles deal with it"