What are the power levels gt characters on a scale

[Hugo Boss]

So in other words, it can just mean

Potara Boost >= SS4 boost

and not necessarily SS Vegetto (Buu saga) >= SS4 Goku?

Yeah, that's how I interpreted. Maybe Super Vegetto in the Boo Arc could be stronger than SS4 Goku in the GT series, but I don't think this is exactly what that text says. If you believe that Goku became much stronger in the GT series itself it's not really impossible that he has surpassed the strenght he had before as Vegetto.

[Duo]

Thank you. That provides a bit more context for attempting to figure some of this out, but it's still difficult to stack all that together because there isn't really a scale for how powerful Mr. Buu is. The only people we've seen him fight are another Majin Buu and Beerus. This probably means Rildo is somewhere between a Super Saiyan 2 and 3 of the Majin Buu era. Doesn't Rildo transform again after that, only to be beaten by Goku as a Super Saiyan? I guess that means that Super Saiyan kid Goku at the start of GT is comparable to Majin Vegeta? It's hard to keep this all straight in my head...

After Battle of Gods came out, there was a time where I believed that no amount of normal Ki can affect godly Ki, but the new film may have shown otherwise. Accepting that, I guess this means that Super Vegetto would be in the lower part of the god power scale, with Super Saiyan 4 Goku in a comparable range? The problem is, while this line of reasoning can get somewhere, at this step you're forced to pick a number between 1 and 5 for Super Vegetto in relationship to Godku's 6 and Beerus' 10. Is there any piece of context here to pinpoint the range better?

[Hugo Boss]

I like the idea of comparing Rildo with the evil Majin Boo, specially because both are labelled as stronger than (suposedly) the good Majin Boo. I agree it's trouble to guess it because there is no comparable fight in the GT series involving Mr. Boo and some other villain, unless you count the moment where he absorbs Baby's energy ball as a fight, but just maybe this could be a good indication of how powerful [Base/SS] Kid Goku got between [Majin Boo Arc~GT Arc] time-skip, since he was almost on par with all Rildo's forms in strength without SS3.

Oob's power-up after joining with Boo, though, seemed to exceed what SS3 Kid Goku accomplished against Baby, but it failed to cause an impression if compared with what SS Kid Goku did against Super No.17. I mean, it's not like the GT series gives any direct indication that Goku or other Z-fighter gets stronger as the story progresses between the GT Arcs. It's really very hard to get this straight in our heads...

Well, regarding Battle of Gods itself, we have that 1-15 scale. I like to give arbitrary numbers like a 4" to SS4 Goku and a 5" to Super Vegetto. But while it fits my personal interpretation about the provided context, I admit it may be a long stretch trying to rationalize it.

[Duo]

I like the idea of comparing Rildo with the evil Majin Boo, specially because both are labelled as stronger than (suposedly) the good Majin Boo. I agree it's trouble to guess it because there is no comparable fight in the GT series involving Mr. Boo and some other villain, unless you count the moment where he absorbs Baby's energy ball as a fight, but just maybe this could be a good indication of how powerful [Base/SS] Kid Goku got between [Majin Boo Arc~GT Arc] time-skip, since he was almost on par with all Rildo's forms in strength without SS3.

Oob's power-up after joining with Boo, though, seemed to exceed what SS3 Kid Goku accomplished against Baby, but it failed to cause an impression if compared with what SS Kid Goku did against Super No.17. I mean, it's not like the GT series gives any direct indication that Goku or other Z-fighter gets stronger as the story progresses between the GT Arcs. It's really very hard to get this straight in our heads...

Well, regarding Battle of Gods itself, we have that 1-15 scale. I like to give arbitrary numbers like a 4" to SS4 Goku and a 5" to Super Vegetto. But while it fits my personal interpretation about the provided context, I admit it may be a long stretch trying to rationalize it.

This is why I don't like debating battle power, let alone GT. Even if you can make heads and tails of what's going on in GT, it's hard to find a basis of comparison within Battle of Gods. Beerus just trounces everybody to the point where it's impossible to figure out how much stronger he was than all of his opponents. Goku says fusion probably wouldn't be enough. But he can't feel Beerus' battle power, so he really can't tell how much stronger than Super Vegetto (whom Goku has been before) he is.

[Tectorman]

To use Instant Transmission, you have to be able to sense your target (or your target has to be next to someone you can sense). Goku and Beers were way up in Earth orbit with no one else around, and he pulled an IT speed blitz on Beers before he unleashed a Kamehameha that Beers was able to take.

Therefore, Goku could at least sense Beers.

So you're saying Goku can be like "Okay, IT 3 meters and 2 centimeters northwest 58 degrees behind Beerus, and then IT again 5 meters 6 centimeters south of Beerus"? It's more likely you can use IT when you've been to that area before/can literally see the area.

Goku has been to the middle of Snake Way. Goku has been out in space away from Earth. He's been a number of places where it would have been safe to take the exploding-Semi-Perfect-Cell where he would explode and not kill anyone besides himself and Goku. Faced with all these choices, Goku took Cell to explode...

twenty feet away from King Kai.

He asked Vegeta to fight away from his friends' dead bodies. He asked the androids to follow him to an area safely away from people. He managed to fight the God of Destruction in an urban population center with next to no collateral damage.

This series is renowned for the rampant destruction its characters cause, but Goku is actually very careful. So the only reason I can think of that he'd take Cell to explode in King Kai's face is because he didn't have a choice. You don't think of a place, you think of a person. So Goku needed to go somewhere where as few people would die as possible, but unfortunately, he needed someone there to act as a navpoint. Ergo, King Kai died.

Now, he can probably navigate in terms of "in front of the guy", "right behind him", "below him and a bit further away", but I'm not suggesting he calculates in degrees and centimeters (or calculates at all, really).

[Tectorman]

"I now have the greatest of Saiyan power" sounds like generic villain boasting to me, not some kind of clear power statement. He's just bragging that he's managed to power himself up even more using the Saiyans' power to trigger transformations mirroring Super Saiyan. "The greatest of Saiyan power" = the greatest power/ability possessed by the Saiyan race, which would be access to their higher transformations.

Exactly. It's more posturing and, in Incredibles terms, villainous monologuing than a power comparison to a character that not only doesn't currently exist, but, since Baby is currently occupying one of the component fusees of said character, can't exist to be compared to without Baby's plans being already shot to Hell at that point.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

You kinda just avoided my question.

Why does he say "I have now obtained the greatest of Saiyan power!" ?

He's stronger than everyone else other currently existing Saiyan, so why is it only after he transforms does he obtain the greatest of Saiyan power?

He could've just said "I have the greatest of Saiyan power!", but he specifically includes "now obtained"

He didn't have the greatest of Saiyan power before transforming, he does after. Before transforming he's already stronger than Goku, who's stronger than every other currently existing Saiyan.

SUPER VEGETTO WAS THE ONLY ONE LEFT TO BE SURPASSED

[singsing]

To use Instant Transmission, you have to be able to sense your target (or your target has to be next to someone you can sense). Goku and Beers were way up in Earth orbit with no one else around, and he pulled an IT speed blitz on Beers before he unleashed a Kamehameha that Beers was able to take.

Therefore, Goku could at least sense Beers.

So you're saying Goku can be like "Okay, IT 3 meters and 2 centimeters northwest 58 degrees behind Beerus, and then IT again 5 meters 6 centimeters south of Beerus"? It's more likely you can use IT when you've been to that area before/can literally see the area.

Goku has been to the middle of Snake Way. Goku has been out in space away from Earth. He's been a number of places where it would have been safe to take the exploding-Semi-Perfect-Cell where he would explode and not kill anyone besides himself and Goku. Faced with all these choices, Goku took Cell to explode...

twenty feet away from King Kai.

He asked Vegeta to fight away from his friends' dead bodies. He asked the androids to follow him to an area safely away from people. He managed to fight the God of Destruction in an urban population center with next to no collateral damage.

This series is renowned for the rampant destruction its characters cause, but Goku is actually very careful. So the only reason I can think of that he'd take Cell to explode in King Kai's face is because he didn't have a choice. You don't think of a place, you think of a person. So Goku needed to go somewhere where as few people would die as possible, but unfortunately, he needed someone there to act as a navpoint. Ergo, King Kai died.

Now, he can probably navigate in terms of "in front of the guy", "right behind him", "below him and a bit further away", but I'm not suggesting he calculates in degrees and centimeters (or calculates at all, really).

How did he IT to that radish patch then?

[Berserker1921]

I honestly believe that ssj4>=ssj vegito. Ssj4 is slightly stronger then vegito I think. Honestly I feel that ssj4 would be ranked 4-5 on the list. The God boost really boosted him up. And they did use his image of vegito in the buu saga. But I belive if goku trained for many years in this form. He would be maybe a 8. However he never had that time. But now goku obtaining the God form boosted him to 8.5.

[Berserker1921]

"I now have the greatest of Saiyan power" sounds like generic villain boasting to me, not some kind of clear power statement. He's just bragging that he's managed to power himself up even more using the Saiyans' power to trigger transformations mirroring Super Saiyan. "The greatest of Saiyan power" = the greatest power/ability possessed by the Saiyan race, which would be access to their higher transformations.

Exactly. It's more posturing and, in Incredibles terms, villainous monologuing than a power comparison to a character that not only doesn't currently exist, but, since Baby is currently occupying one of the component fusees of said character, can't exist to be compared to without Baby's plans being already shot to Hell at that point.

All he was saying he was stronger then goku. And even of that were true. Goku would surpass him as the battle ended. That's just him gloating. When he should have killed goku when he had the chance lol

[Tectorman]

How did he IT to that radish patch then?

Don't plants have ki?

[Tectorman]

SUPER VEGETTO WAS THE ONLY ONE LEFT TO BE SURPASSED

I already addressed this part.

If we're fixating on the presence of the word "now" rather than calling it for the villainous gloating that it more likely is, then it means that Baby went from surpassing all existing Saiyans to surpassing all existing Saiyans plus one (this one not being currently in existence).

I already suggested Goku's immediately pre-GT fully-SSJ3-capable self (which Vegeta would have been aware of) as a possibility.

Not currently in existence: check
Stronger than all currently extant Saiyans: check
Was stronger than Baby Vegeta: sure, why not?

I.e., Vegetto was not the only one left to be surpassed. You say he was, but that's not actually established.

...

ALSO, DO WE ABSOLUTELY NEED THE OBNOXIOUS TEXT EQUIVALENT OF SCREAMING?!!

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Baby Vegeta before transforming beat SS3 Goku, so that's not a viable option. Goku didn't lose any power when turning into a kid, either.

You're not explaining the "now have" part.

"I have the greatest of Saiyan power!" itself would be enough, there would be absolutely no point at all to add "now have" if he was only talking about existing Saiyans, since he was prior to transforming.

So unless you can give me a Saiyan besides Vegetto that was ahead of Baby Vegeta, or give a real explanation for the "now have" part, and not just dismiss his statement as "he's just gloating", I'm not seeing any reason at all to exclude Vegetto from the statement.

[DragonBallLove]

If you want to take it as a valid font, Xenoverse has answer most of the questions adressed here.

[Dayspring]

You kinda just avoided my question.

Why does he say "I have now obtained the greatest of Saiyan power!" ?

He's stronger than everyone else other currently existing Saiyan, so why is it only after he transforms does he obtain the greatest of Saiyan power?

He could've just said "I have the greatest of Saiyan power!", but he specifically includes "now obtained"

He didn't have the greatest of Saiyan power before transforming, he does after. Before transforming he's already stronger than Goku, who's stronger than every other currently existing Saiyan.

SUPER VEGETTO WAS THE ONLY ONE LEFT TO BE SURPASSED

Super Vegetto was not the only one left to surpass. Baby being in control of Vegeta's body means Vegetto doesn't exist and will not exist. Therefore, there's no possible way Vegetto can be a threat to Baby and does not need to be surpassed. You keep demanding that we address the "now obtained" portion of his claim but you're the only one who seems to be ignoring it. The words confirm that the only relevant Saiyan powers are: Vegeta, Goku, Gohan, Trunks, Goten, Bra, maybe Pan. Nobody else. Vegeta is merely the strongest out of that group. Heck, it's even possible Gotenks is stronger than Baby when he says what he does.

[singsing]

How did he IT to that radish patch then?

Don't plants have ki?

If we're using the "Everything in DB has ki" argument, then the particles floating in space have ki. Goku could have found a planet full of plants and nothing else and IT'd there. I mean, if he can differentiate the exact radish ki he wanted on Mount Paozu, surely he can do that.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Super Vegetto was not the only one left to surpass. Baby being in control of Vegeta's body means Vegetto doesn't exist and will not exist. Therefore, there's no possible way Vegetto can be a threat to Baby and does not need to be surpassed. You keep demanding that we address the "now obtained" portion of his claim but you're the only one who seems to be ignoring it. The words confirm that the only relevant Saiyan powers are: Vegeta, Goku, Gohan, Trunks, Goten, Bra, maybe Pan. Nobody else. Vegeta is merely the strongest out of that group. Heck, it's even possible Gotenks is stronger than Baby when he says what he does.

I don't understand why I need to repeat myself? I'll make it simple.

1. Base Baby Vegeta is the strongest currently existing Saiyan, as proven by him beating Goku, who was stronger than Gohan and Goten.

2. Base Baby Vegeta transforms into Super Baby 1

3. Only after he transforms does he claim "Power! I have now obtained the greatest of Saiyan power!"

So answer this question:

How can he have just obtained the greatest of Saiyan power when he was already stronger than every current Saiyan, if he's only referring to currently existing Saiyans?

Vegetto not existing at that current time doesn't mean his power is automatically excluded. Vegetto still happened, even if he doesn't exist, he still held the record for greatest of Saiyan powers.

I honestly can't even continue this debate anymore, why people can't accept Vegetto being fodder in GT is beyond me.

[singsing]

I honestly can't even continue this debate anymore, why people can't accept Vegetto being fodder in GT is beyond me.

Why people who can't accept that other people have differing opinions talk down on their peers like everything they believe is fact is beyond me.

[dbgtFO]

So in other words, it can just mean

Potara Boost >= SS4 boost

and not necessarily SS Vegetto (Buu saga) >= SS4 Goku?

Yeah, that's how I interpreted. Maybe Super Vegetto in the Boo Arc could be stronger than SS4 Goku in the GT series, but I don't think this is exactly what that text says. If you believe that Goku became much stronger in the GT series itself it's not really impossible that he has surpassed the strenght he had before as Vegetto.

The text as translated by Herms:

Merging With Vegeta!
After Goku and Vegeta use a merging item to merge, they become Vegetto! They can furthermore become a Super Saiyan, making them Super Vegetto! After the two strongest people merge, they become the greatest master in the universe! Perhaps even stronger than Super Saiyan 4!

[Big blue text at bottom] Use the power of justice to eliminate evil!

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... 20#p835863
Yeah, I don't see a problem with the above interpretation.

[Tectorman]

How did he IT to that radish patch then?

Don't plants have ki?

If we're using the "Everything in DB has ki" argument, then the particles floating in space have ki. Goku could have found a planet full of plants and nothing else and IT'd there. I mean, if he can differentiate the exact radish ki he wanted on Mount Paozu, surely he can do that.

I'm not using the "Everything in DB has ki" argument. I'm using the "Everything alive in DB has ki" argument. Which is not to say that Goku can teleport to any given plant, either. He can't normally differentiate between all the millions/billions of regular humans on Earth, but because he was familiar with Bulma and knew what her ki felt like, he was able to teleport to her location (though still with difficulty and only after she'd already used a wish).

The only reason he could pick out Mount Paozu's radishes as opposed to other radishes is because he'd spent a lot of time cultivating them and tending them. He hasn't done that with other plants, so unless they have unusual ki for him to pick up on, he's not going to be able to teleport to their location.

There's another issue with Yo Son Goku. When he teleports the group back, none of them are actually touching him. You realize how OP that is? You'd expect his fight with Beers to have gone a lot differently than it did if he could teleport other people around himself without having to have actually grabbed them.