I read somewhere someone working on the movie in an interview said Freeza's power level was 10 quintillion.supercat wrote:Where did those numbers come from? I think the Freeza one was mentioned somewhere, but I imagine the others are a result of the Piccolo and Gohan holding back to match Freeza's men in power right? Regardless, even if that were the case, I always speculated that they can raise their power instantly (as Goku did against the Ginyu Force) on an as needed basis.
What I'm having a hard time believing is how Piccolo is unable to raise his power on the same as needed basis against someone Zarbon tier.
Shisami managing to land even one shot at Piccolo is BS
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shonenhikada
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Re: Shisami managing to land even one shot at Piccolo is BS
Re: Shisami managing to land even one shot at Piccolo is BS
Yes, I think I heard that somewhere as well.
However, I was more so referring to the 22,000 and 530,000.
Again, I can understand the fact that Piccolo and Gohan both significantly lowered their power to fight on par with Frieza's men. However, as mentioned earlier, I always thought it has been shown in the past that they can quickly and almost instantaneously boost their power (Goku vs Ginyu Force), on an as needed basis. If Piccolo saw that someone stronger than the average grunt came along, all he had to do was raise his power promptly to take him down. I find it hard to believe that someone Zarbon tier can catch Piccolo off guard to the point of knocking him out. I think Piccolo would have been able to sense his energy and raise his power as needed to get the job taken care of. Additionally, if Piccolo fired a Makankosappo at Shisami, that shows he may have not been holding back. That attack is meant to dish out heavy damage, and in most cases it appeared it was meant to finish off the opponent. I think if he in fact was holding back, he would have fired a mere ki blast. Furthermore, I'm sure Piccolo sensed how powerful Shisami was. I doubt he would have kept his own power the same as when he was casually taking out the weaker grunts.
I heard that Piccolo is still training, so the only thing I can assume here is that Shisami had a massive power increase.
However, I was more so referring to the 22,000 and 530,000.
Again, I can understand the fact that Piccolo and Gohan both significantly lowered their power to fight on par with Frieza's men. However, as mentioned earlier, I always thought it has been shown in the past that they can quickly and almost instantaneously boost their power (Goku vs Ginyu Force), on an as needed basis. If Piccolo saw that someone stronger than the average grunt came along, all he had to do was raise his power promptly to take him down. I find it hard to believe that someone Zarbon tier can catch Piccolo off guard to the point of knocking him out. I think Piccolo would have been able to sense his energy and raise his power as needed to get the job taken care of. Additionally, if Piccolo fired a Makankosappo at Shisami, that shows he may have not been holding back. That attack is meant to dish out heavy damage, and in most cases it appeared it was meant to finish off the opponent. I think if he in fact was holding back, he would have fired a mere ki blast. Furthermore, I'm sure Piccolo sensed how powerful Shisami was. I doubt he would have kept his own power the same as when he was casually taking out the weaker grunts.
I heard that Piccolo is still training, so the only thing I can assume here is that Shisami had a massive power increase.
Re: Shisami managing to land even one shot at Piccolo is BS
That was a statement from Freeza's voice actor Ryusei Nako. It's not to be taken as legitimatize. He probably just made up the number.shonenhikada wrote:I read somewhere someone working on the movie in an interview said Freeza's power level was 10 quintillion.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
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ZombieVito
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Re: Shisami managing to land even one shot at Piccolo is BS
Bingo.supercat wrote:Yes, I think I heard that somewhere as well.
However, I was more so referring to the 22,000 and 530,000.
Again, I can understand the fact that Piccolo and Gohan both significantly lowered their power to fight on par with Freeza's men. However, as mentioned earlier, I always thought it has been shown in the past that they can quickly and almost instantaneously boost their power (Goku vs Ginyu Force), on an as needed basis. If Piccolo saw that someone stronger than the average grunt came along, all he had to do was raise his power promptly to take him down. I find it hard to believe that someone Zarbon tier can catch Piccolo off guard to the point of knocking him out. I think Piccolo would have been able to sense his energy and raise his power as needed to get the job taken care of. Additionally, if Piccolo fired a Makankosappo at Shisami, that shows he may have not been holding back. That attack is meant to dish out heavy damage, and in most cases it appeared it was meant to finish off the opponent. I think if he in fact was holding back, he would have fired a mere ki blast. Furthermore, I'm sure Piccolo sensed how powerful Shisami was. I doubt he would have kept his own power the same as when he was casually taking out the weaker grunts.
I heard that Piccolo is still training, so the only thing I can assume here is that Shisami had a massive power increase.
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Blackstripe
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Re: Shisami managing to land even one shot at Piccolo is BS
Goku's Start of Z power level was 416.
In a little over a year's worth of training (his time in the afterlife, plus his time aboard the Capsule Corp ship) he managed to go from that to 150,000,000 with the help of his zenkai power and Super Saiyan transformation. Now, this is a supposedly lower class Saiyan achieving these amazing gains.
If Freeza is the prodigy he claims, and has never trained a single day in his life to achieve his 120,000,000 power level, then...yes. It makes sense that he could achieve incredible gains in even less time. Add a transformation onto that in the vein of Super Saiyan, and boom. Makes perfect sense by Dragon Ball logic.
Shisami, if he has a natural power of 20,000 - 30,000, would still technically have more potential than any of the Earth fighters. If he trains under whatever conditions Freeza is, I can understand how he might end up on Piccolo's level in short order.
In a little over a year's worth of training (his time in the afterlife, plus his time aboard the Capsule Corp ship) he managed to go from that to 150,000,000 with the help of his zenkai power and Super Saiyan transformation. Now, this is a supposedly lower class Saiyan achieving these amazing gains.
If Freeza is the prodigy he claims, and has never trained a single day in his life to achieve his 120,000,000 power level, then...yes. It makes sense that he could achieve incredible gains in even less time. Add a transformation onto that in the vein of Super Saiyan, and boom. Makes perfect sense by Dragon Ball logic.
Shisami, if he has a natural power of 20,000 - 30,000, would still technically have more potential than any of the Earth fighters. If he trains under whatever conditions Freeza is, I can understand how he might end up on Piccolo's level in short order.
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Pantalones
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Re: Shisami managing to land even one shot at Piccolo is BS
Why is everyone assuming that Shisami and Tagoma are around Zarbon/Dodoria level anyway?
We already had an example of a couple Freeza's-army characters gaining a decent chunk of power without even doing anything super special as far as we know (Abo and Kado were described as being on Freeza's level when they made their appearance on Earth -- presumably that's first or second form Freeza since nobody knew about his third and fourth forms or how strong they were, aside from the main cast who fought them -- and I vaguely remember that it was mentioned that they were roughly on the level of the Ginyu Force before... which puts their original Freeza Saga power level somewhere in the low tens-of-thousands most likely, considering that all of them except Guldo and Ginyu seemed to be in the 40,000 range.)
Obviously the level of the "ordinary grunt" soldiers hasn't increased, but maybe the level of the upper ranks has. Again, Abo and Kado were on par with some form of Freeza individually and still somehow didn't manage to become the absolute leaders of the "Freeza's army remnants" group, despite having the same power that Freeza walked around with on a day-to-day basis (or even higher, if they were on par with his 2nd form when they landed on Earth.) Why should the top two flunkies of the army's current leader (Sorbet) still be Zarbon-level when two random guys managed to reach the lowest limits of Freeza's power?
I figure Shisami and Tagoma are compared to Zarbon and Dodoria in the sense that they're in the "top two guys who hang around with the boss all the time" position now, not in terms of power. So basically Sorbet's comparison is just saying "hey Freeza, these guys are Shisami and Tagoma, they're like those guys Zarbon and Dodoria who used to hang out with you all the time."
Or maybe Sorbet is still stuck in the old mindset (Freeza's army = naturally super-strong mutants who don't actually train so everybody's going to stay the same power-wise) and is referring to the last time he measured those two's power levels, which isn't necessarily how strong they are now. We know Ginyu had way more knowledge of the workings of ki than most of the soldiers, and we know that Abo and Kado had trained to increase their power -- it's entirely possible that, after what happened on Namek, more and more of the upper level soldiers in the remnants of Freeza's army have been figuring out that just relying on their innate strength isn't going to cut it, especially with Freeza out of the picture. So I figure Shisami might have been weaker back when Freeza was still alive before, but by the time he was revived, he would've been stronger (probably way stronger) than someone like Zarbon... and he may have gone through a period of intense training himself during those months considering that if he's already been training, and Freeza himself is training hard to rapidly increase his power, why wouldn't he get the idea to do the same sort of thing?
Plus, Piccolo's clearly trying not to kill any of the minions he fights... so Shisami doesn't have to be stronger than Piccolo, just close enough to his level that Piccolo can't reliably knock him out of the battle without using his full power (makes me think of the "match power" vs. "battle power" comparison I've seen brought up when talking about the tournaments in Dragonball, how Goku describes his two levels of power/"seriousness" in fights.) He's strong enough that an attack that would knock him out for sure would also come with a risk of killing him, and in this fight Piccolo's actively avoiding doing that, so Gohan (presumably dropped down to "post-Z-sword" level now that he seems to have lost his "ultimate/mystic" power-up) has to step in instead.
Now, if Shisami is intended to have a power level similar to Zarbon and still be able to put up a good fight against Piccolo, even if it's a Piccolo that's holding back and has already stomped a bunch of other weak soldiers while holding back, then yeah... it's definitely BS. But if Shisami isn't literally "Zarbon level" in terms of power level as measured by scouter, there are ways to explain it that would make it non-BS (or at least less-BS.)
We already had an example of a couple Freeza's-army characters gaining a decent chunk of power without even doing anything super special as far as we know (Abo and Kado were described as being on Freeza's level when they made their appearance on Earth -- presumably that's first or second form Freeza since nobody knew about his third and fourth forms or how strong they were, aside from the main cast who fought them -- and I vaguely remember that it was mentioned that they were roughly on the level of the Ginyu Force before... which puts their original Freeza Saga power level somewhere in the low tens-of-thousands most likely, considering that all of them except Guldo and Ginyu seemed to be in the 40,000 range.)
Obviously the level of the "ordinary grunt" soldiers hasn't increased, but maybe the level of the upper ranks has. Again, Abo and Kado were on par with some form of Freeza individually and still somehow didn't manage to become the absolute leaders of the "Freeza's army remnants" group, despite having the same power that Freeza walked around with on a day-to-day basis (or even higher, if they were on par with his 2nd form when they landed on Earth.) Why should the top two flunkies of the army's current leader (Sorbet) still be Zarbon-level when two random guys managed to reach the lowest limits of Freeza's power?
I figure Shisami and Tagoma are compared to Zarbon and Dodoria in the sense that they're in the "top two guys who hang around with the boss all the time" position now, not in terms of power. So basically Sorbet's comparison is just saying "hey Freeza, these guys are Shisami and Tagoma, they're like those guys Zarbon and Dodoria who used to hang out with you all the time."
Or maybe Sorbet is still stuck in the old mindset (Freeza's army = naturally super-strong mutants who don't actually train so everybody's going to stay the same power-wise) and is referring to the last time he measured those two's power levels, which isn't necessarily how strong they are now. We know Ginyu had way more knowledge of the workings of ki than most of the soldiers, and we know that Abo and Kado had trained to increase their power -- it's entirely possible that, after what happened on Namek, more and more of the upper level soldiers in the remnants of Freeza's army have been figuring out that just relying on their innate strength isn't going to cut it, especially with Freeza out of the picture. So I figure Shisami might have been weaker back when Freeza was still alive before, but by the time he was revived, he would've been stronger (probably way stronger) than someone like Zarbon... and he may have gone through a period of intense training himself during those months considering that if he's already been training, and Freeza himself is training hard to rapidly increase his power, why wouldn't he get the idea to do the same sort of thing?
Plus, Piccolo's clearly trying not to kill any of the minions he fights... so Shisami doesn't have to be stronger than Piccolo, just close enough to his level that Piccolo can't reliably knock him out of the battle without using his full power (makes me think of the "match power" vs. "battle power" comparison I've seen brought up when talking about the tournaments in Dragonball, how Goku describes his two levels of power/"seriousness" in fights.) He's strong enough that an attack that would knock him out for sure would also come with a risk of killing him, and in this fight Piccolo's actively avoiding doing that, so Gohan (presumably dropped down to "post-Z-sword" level now that he seems to have lost his "ultimate/mystic" power-up) has to step in instead.
Now, if Shisami is intended to have a power level similar to Zarbon and still be able to put up a good fight against Piccolo, even if it's a Piccolo that's holding back and has already stomped a bunch of other weak soldiers while holding back, then yeah... it's definitely BS. But if Shisami isn't literally "Zarbon level" in terms of power level as measured by scouter, there are ways to explain it that would make it non-BS (or at least less-BS.)
Re: Shisami managing to land even one shot at Piccolo is BS
I'm pretty sure the comparison between Shisami and Tagoma with Zarbon and Dodoria was in reference to power. My reasoning for believing that is the fact that first form Frieza (prior to training) easily took care of Tagoma. If and Shisami and Tagoma were really only being compared in other aspects, and they were actually far above Zarbon and Dodoria in power, I doubt Frieza before his training can defeat the the latter so effortlessly in his first form.
Look, I'm all for accepting the fact that Shisami had an incredible power increase that enabled him to be Piccolo / Cell Jr. tier. What means he leveraged to obtain such power is not as important as whether he got there or not.
With that being said, in my opinion, Piccolo being supressed or being snuck up on does not validate a good enough reason for him to be knocked down by someone Zarbon tier.
Again, based on previous battles, I've had the understanding that the Z fighters can promptly raise their power instantly as needed (Goku vs Ginyu Force, to some extent Trunks vs Frieza's men).
With that in mind, I find it extremely hard to believe that a Zarbon level fighter was able to simply sneak up on Piccolo and dish out enough damage to knock him out. Piccolo should have been able to sense Shisami's power and should have then able to at least raise his own power enough not to take any damage from him. I get it that they weren't trying to finish off Frieza's men, but I'm pretty sure the intention wasn't to lower their power so much that they take a beating while holding back.
Tired or not, I'm pretty sure Piccolo had enough energy left to at the very least raise his power to the point of making a Zarbon level foe fodder.
My whole perception on this is that Shisami did power up significantly, potentially to the point of being able to tangle with post Buu Saga Piccolo. As I mentioned before, I doubt Piccolo would use his Makankosappo on a Zarbon level foe. He probably sensed how powerful Shisami was and wanted to take him down quick before things got ugly. Plus, If Shisami was really around Zarbon in power, Gohan probably wouldn't have had any need to go super saiyan. Seeing as he did seems to indicate that Shisami is somewhere around post Buu saga Piccolo but weaker than Super Saiyan Gohan (around the time he was training with the Z sword).
Look, I'm all for accepting the fact that Shisami had an incredible power increase that enabled him to be Piccolo / Cell Jr. tier. What means he leveraged to obtain such power is not as important as whether he got there or not.
With that being said, in my opinion, Piccolo being supressed or being snuck up on does not validate a good enough reason for him to be knocked down by someone Zarbon tier.
Again, based on previous battles, I've had the understanding that the Z fighters can promptly raise their power instantly as needed (Goku vs Ginyu Force, to some extent Trunks vs Frieza's men).
With that in mind, I find it extremely hard to believe that a Zarbon level fighter was able to simply sneak up on Piccolo and dish out enough damage to knock him out. Piccolo should have been able to sense Shisami's power and should have then able to at least raise his own power enough not to take any damage from him. I get it that they weren't trying to finish off Frieza's men, but I'm pretty sure the intention wasn't to lower their power so much that they take a beating while holding back.
Tired or not, I'm pretty sure Piccolo had enough energy left to at the very least raise his power to the point of making a Zarbon level foe fodder.
My whole perception on this is that Shisami did power up significantly, potentially to the point of being able to tangle with post Buu Saga Piccolo. As I mentioned before, I doubt Piccolo would use his Makankosappo on a Zarbon level foe. He probably sensed how powerful Shisami was and wanted to take him down quick before things got ugly. Plus, If Shisami was really around Zarbon in power, Gohan probably wouldn't have had any need to go super saiyan. Seeing as he did seems to indicate that Shisami is somewhere around post Buu saga Piccolo but weaker than Super Saiyan Gohan (around the time he was training with the Z sword).
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Lord Beerus
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Re: Shisami managing to land even one shot at Piccolo is BS
I still find it hilarious that people are so up in arms at the idea that one of Freeza's elite soldiers could be a strong as Piccolo, yet seem to accept the idea that a random mad scientist could create in cave, cyborgs stronger than Super Saiyans.
Spoiler:
Re: Shisami managing to land even one shot at Piccolo is BS
I think that they're both equally dumb ideas.Lord Beerus wrote:I still find it hilarious that people are so up in arms at the idea that one of Freeza's elite soldiers could be a strong as Piccolo, yet seem to accept the idea that a random mad scientist could create in cave, cyborgs stronger than Super Saiyans.
Re: Shisami managing to land even one shot at Piccolo is BS
I totally agree with you. I have no qualms accepting the fact that Frieza employs an elite that can rival Piccolo. I just felt there was no clarification on how a Zarbon tier opponent was able to match Piccolo, given the way things were portrayed in previous battles in reference to suppressing and instantly increasing power.Lord Beerus wrote:I still find it hilarious that people are so up in arms at the idea that one of Freeza's elite soldiers could be a strong as Piccolo, yet seem to accept the idea that a random mad scientist could create in cave, cyborgs stronger than Super Saiyans.
In my opinion, Shisami acquiring a major power increase is the most logical scenario. I only hope this will somehow be elaborated on.
Re: Shisami managing to land even one shot at Piccolo is BS
Always thought Androids saga should have come before Freeza saga, that would make more sense, with Cell either being the second strongest enemy, due to him possessing all the Z-fighters cells, or the strongest (appearing after Freeza saga as a "bonus" enemy, now possessing Freeza's and King Cold's cells).
Then, we wouldn't have Lapis and Lazuli being stronger than Super Saiyans and Freeza (well, one of the few positive things of Movie 15 is this, it corrects what it should have been).
Then, we wouldn't have Lapis and Lazuli being stronger than Super Saiyans and Freeza (well, one of the few positive things of Movie 15 is this, it corrects what it should have been).
Re: Shisami managing to land even one shot at Piccolo is BS
I just think the androids themselves should have appeared in the RRA arc whilst Cell and Trunks after the Freeza arc.Dyno wrote:Always thought Androids saga should have come before Freeza saga, that would make more sense, with Cell either being the second strongest enemy, due to him possessing all the Z-fighters cells, or the strongest (appearing after Freeza saga as a "bonus" enemy, now possessing Freeza's and King Cold's cells).
Then, we wouldn't have Lapis and Lazuli being stronger than Super Saiyans and Freeza (well, one of the few positive things of Movie 15 is this, it corrects what it should have been).
Re: Shisami managing to land even one shot at Piccolo is BS
But then, how would you develop the saga if the base is just "Cell and Trunks"?
Re: Shisami managing to land even one shot at Piccolo is BS
Easy, have Goku get the heart virus sooner than expected, have Trunks be late and with Vegeta nowhere to be seen, some enemies weaker than SSJs appear for the rest of the gang to take care of.Dyno wrote:But then, how would you develop the saga if the base is just "Cell and Trunks"?
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Lord Beerus
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Re: Shisami managing to land even one shot at Piccolo is BS
Well, Dragon Ball runs on dumb ideas. Fans just can't appreciate that those dumb ideas are what makes Dragon Ball awesome.Doctor. wrote:I think that they're both equally dumb ideas.Lord Beerus wrote:I still find it hilarious that people are so up in arms at the idea that one of Freeza's elite soldiers could be a strong as Piccolo, yet seem to accept the idea that a random mad scientist could create in cave, cyborgs stronger than Super Saiyans.
Spoiler:
Re: Shisami managing to land even one shot at Piccolo is BS
I'm not saying they don't. I love all the arcs in Dragon Ball and I'm 99% sure I'll love RF as well. Still doesn't stop me from calling out bad writing when I think so.Lord Beerus wrote:Well, Dragon Ball runs on dumb ideas. Fans just can't appreciate that those dumb ideas are what makes Dragon Ball awesome.Doctor. wrote:I think that they're both equally dumb ideas.Lord Beerus wrote:I still find it hilarious that people are so up in arms at the idea that one of Freeza's elite soldiers could be a strong as Piccolo, yet seem to accept the idea that a random mad scientist could create in cave, cyborgs stronger than Super Saiyans.
Re: Shisami managing to land even one shot at Piccolo is BS
I really don't like the "nowhere to be seen" concept, it always bugs me and makes me think "where the hell is that character?" and "why didn't one show up!?". But oh well. This idea could work better than make them fight Cell Jrs, only for them to have their asses kicked.Doctor. wrote:Easy, have Goku get the heart virus sooner than expected, have Trunks be late and with Vegeta nowhere to be seen, some enemies weaker than SSJs appear for the rest of the gang to take care of.
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Marco Polo
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Re: Shisami managing to land even one shot at Piccolo is BS
Return of Cyborg TaoDoctor. wrote:some enemies weaker than SSJs appear for the rest of the gang to take care of.
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FortuneSSJ
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Re: Shisami managing to land even one shot at Piccolo is BS
Yes, one of the 1000 soldiers is stronger than the rest, and managed to punch Piccolo.
So shocking.
So shocking.
A world without Dragon Ball is just boring.
Favourite old DB Animators: Masaki Sato and Tadayoshi Yamamuro
Favourite new DB Animators: Yuya Takahashi and Chikashi Kubota
Favourite old DB Animators: Masaki Sato and Tadayoshi Yamamuro
Favourite new DB Animators: Yuya Takahashi and Chikashi Kubota
Re: Shisami managing to land even one shot at Piccolo is BS
I dunno why Freeza thought the Saiyans were such a threat. He apparently has soldiers of his own who can grow at a faster rate and become enough to overthrow him in an even shorter time. He also has a minion with a weapon that could kill him at any time too. Freeza should really have been fearing those guys instead.Doctor. wrote:I think that they're both equally dumb ideas.Lord Beerus wrote:I still find it hilarious that people are so up in arms at the idea that one of Freeza's elite soldiers could be a strong as Piccolo, yet seem to accept the idea that a random mad scientist could create in cave, cyborgs stronger than Super Saiyans.
And hey least the Cyborgs had years to study and learn off of Goku and the others and years of development....Freeza had 4 month's as a guy who doesn't know shit about martial arts
. If anything he shoulda ended up like Future Gohan, another guy who trained, had huge potential, and yet still never got insanely strong.Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler: