Could kid Goten and Trunks beat Namek-era Freeza?

[Lionel]

Could someone offer an exact pictorial reference to this claim of the Base Saiyans being inferior to Freeza, please? I've looked at what appears to be Super's rendition of the conversation relating to the Super Saiyan duel with Freeza and nothing is mentioned about Goku's inability to win without the transformation in following arcs. Come to think of it -- the Daizenshuu contradicts this notion when its character dictionary labels Trunks as a comparable match to #18.

Tenkaichi Budoukai: At the Youth Division of the 25th Tenkaichi Budoukai, he defeated Goten and won the championship. He and Goten then participated in the Adult Division as Mighty Mask, demonstrating strength on par with No.18’s, until she managed to see through their disguise. He passed through the finals at the 28th Tenkaichi Budoukai, but the tournament’s final results are unknown. (Daizenshuu 4, p.123, 124)

This doesn't necessarily mean I subscribe to the idea of Piccolo somehow deteriorating past the point of comparability with the Super Saiyans, much less their Base selves, but there is in fact evidence to indicate the Saiyans overtook Freeza eventually without the need for SSJ.

[ekrolo2]

Could someone offer an exact pictorial reference to this claim of the Base Saiyans being inferior to Freeza, please? I've looked at what appears to be Super's rendition of the conversation relating to the Super Saiyan duel with Freeza and nothing is mentioned about Goku's inability to win without the transformation in following arcs. Come to think of it -- the Daizenshuu contradicts this notion when its character dictionary labels Trunks as a comparable match to #18.

Tenkaichi Budoukai: At the Youth Division of the 25th Tenkaichi Budoukai, he defeated Goten and won the championship. He and Goten then participated in the Adult Division as Mighty Mask, demonstrating strength on par with No.18’s, until she managed to see through their disguise. He passed through the finals at the 28th Tenkaichi Budoukai, but the tournament’s final results are unknown. (Daizenshuu 4, p.123, 124)

This doesn't necessarily mean I subscribe to the idea of Piccolo somehow deteriorating past the point of comparability with the Super Saiyans, much less their Base selves, but there is in fact evidence to indicate the Saiyans overtook Freeza eventually without the need for SSJ.

The movie has him say it when he's inspecting Goku, same thing for the show, in the manga he says this when blocking SS2 Goku's attack.

Also, unless the Daizenshuu thinks 18 is trying to get disqualified by killing her opponent, Trunks matching her heavily suppressed power doesn't mean anything.

[Lionel]

The movie is notorious for being retroactively discordant with the current setup of Super. Moreover, the exact quotation which I'm reading in the manga says this, "Now I understand just how you managed to defeat Freeza." It sounds like more of a specification of the time frame when Goku battled Freeza. Until Super, he had only encountered Freeza once. Let's also not forget about the Kaioken's potential usability. For Beerus' comment to be chronologically relevant across every arc of DBZ after Namek and the beginning portion of Super, Goku's Base power would have needed to remain below 6,000,001 the entire time as a x20 burst of the Kaioken with that exact power level would technically allow him to surpass Freeza without the need for a transformation (Kaioken is listed as a technique, not a state of being). Such a prospect is unlikely as all of the Super Saiyans and every villain before Perfect Cell, by extension of the Kaioken not sufficiently putting Base Goku ahead of Freeza, would be perpetually bound to 300,000,000 or less in overall power -- only double the power of Goku's original SSJ power on Namek. What's also strange is Beerus choosing to comment on Super Saiyan's intrinsic nature in Freeza's downfall when SSJ2 is used instead of acknowledging this fact with the original SSJ1 form. Super Saiyan 2 wasn't even a concept at the time. Maybe he was just commenting on Goku's ability to multiply his power in general?

#18 should be capable of shifting her power output to whatever arbitrary percentage is necessary for quickly incapacitating her opponent if she's indeed holding back (Future #17 already proved this was possible when he explained how he had restrained himself to below half of his power during a previous encounter with Future Gohan). She's not interested in the sportsmanship or thrill of fighting, her expressed goal is the prize money. There's no reason whatsoever for her to prolong things and endanger herself or others in a high intensity battle.

[ekrolo2]

The movie is notorious for being retroactively discordant with the current setup of Super. Moreover, the exact quotation which I'm reading in the manga says this, "Now I understand just how you managed to defeat Freeza." It sounds like more of a specification of the time frame when Goku battled Freeza. Until Super, he had only encountered Freeza once. Let's also not forget about the Kaioken's potential usability. For Beerus' comment to be chronologically relevant across every arc of DBZ after Namek and the beginning portion of Super, Goku's Base power would have needed to remain below 6,000,001 the entire time as a x20 burst of the Kaioken with that exact power level would technically allow him to surpass Freeza without the need for a transformation (Kaioken is listed as a technique, not a state of being). Such a prospect is unlikely as all of the Super Saiyans and every villain before Perfect Cell, by extension of the Kaioken not sufficiently putting Base Goku ahead of Freeza, would be perpetually bound to 300,000,000 or less in overall power -- only double the power of Goku's original SSJ power on Namek. What's also strange is Beerus choosing to comment on Super Saiyan's intrinsic nature in Freeza's downfall when SSJ2 is used instead of acknowledging this fact with the original SSJ1 form. Super Saiyan 2 wasn't even a concept at the time. Maybe he was just commenting on Goku's ability to multiply his power in general?

#18 should be capable of shifting her power output to whatever arbitrary percentage is necessary for quickly incapacitating her opponent if she's indeed holding back (Future #17 already proved this was possible when he explained how he had restrained himself to below half of his power during a previous encounter with Future Gohan). She's not interested in the sportsmanship or thrill of fighting, her expressed goal is the prize money. There's no reason whatsoever for her to prolong things and endanger herself or others in a high intensity battle.

Beerus doesn't know Goku can use KK until he uses it in the U6 tournament nor does Whis mention it to him on the way there. It's a total non-factor in this discussion since no one brings it up and Beerus isn't aware of it at all. Hell, given the fact Toyotaro wasn't obliged to even use KK in the manga for the Hit fight, Toriyama and everyone else more than likely just forgot it exists as no one ever brings it up again after Namek in the manga or in the new material until the U6 fight.

#18 also doesn't want to kill anyone, all she knows about Mighty Mask is that he's above averagely strong for a human, so, let's say she starts out using Roshi's PL equivalent to fight him then progressively gets faster and stronger as the boys try to beat her. But considering the fact #18 doesn't even recognize the two of them are Mighty Mask until they specifically use Super Saiyan, its highly likely whatever power she did increase to, wasn't anything close to Trunks & Goten's full Base power.

[Lionel]

So Whis chose to omit the entire first half of Goku's battle with Freeza? It sounds like a characteristic hole in logic. Although as I said before, the Kaioken is an amplification technique, not a transformation. Beerus is creating projections from a myopic viewpoint that neglects to factor subsequent power increases in his assertion of Super Saiyan's necessity in defeating Freeza. And the Kaioken must not have been entirely ignored if Toei went to the trouble of incorporating it in a later filler arc -- a responce to your "everyone else" comment.

For this purported claim of gradual increases in power output over the course of the fight to hold validity would imply that Trunks and Goten were accommodating this self-limiting mechanic as well since they're hundreds of thousands times more powerful than Roshi in Base. There's no statements alluding to either fighter progressively raising their power to counter the other's, and I suspect a detail like this would be something worth verbally noting by either side. Trunks' exact words of acknowledgement for #18's power was this, "Don’t let your guard down, Goten…I heard that Kuririn’s wife was stronger than our papas a long time ago…” People only choose to look at #18's perspective without taking into account Goten and Trunks' understanding of just how powerful #18 is. There was no hesitation in their conviction to win, and this was before coming to the realisation that the suit was badly encumbering them or even attacking the cyborg.

[Saturnine]

Yeah, I'm not buying this thing either. Too much stuff points towards the fact that base Saiyans are way above Freeza in the Buu saga, perhaps even earlier.

[ekrolo2]

So Whis chose to omit the entire first half of Goku's battle with Freeza? It sounds like a characteristic hole in logic. Although as I said before, the Kaioken is an amplification technique, not a transformation. Beerus is creating projections from a myopic viewpoint that neglects to factor subsequent power increases in his assertion of Super Saiyan's necessity in defeating Freeza. And the Kaioken must not have been entirely ignored if Toei went to the trouble of incorporating it in a later filler arc -- a responce to your "everyone else" comment.

For this purported claim of gradual increases in power output over the course of the fight to hold validity would imply that Trunks and Goten were accommodating this self-limiting mechanic as well since they're hundreds of thousands times more powerful than Roshi in Base. There's no statements alluding to either fighter progressively raising their power to counter the other's, and I suspect a detail like this would be something worth verbally noting by either side. Trunks' exact words of acknowledgement for #18's power was this, "Don’t let your guard down, Goten…I heard that Kuririn’s wife was stronger than our papas a long time ago…” People only choose to look at #18's perspective without taking into account Goten and Trunks' understanding of just how powerful #18 is. There was no hesitation in their conviction to win, and this was before coming to the realisation that the suit was badly encumbering them or even attacking the cyborg.

Whis showed Beerus what he wanted to know: how a Sayain acquired the power to defeat Freeza, which is Super Saiyan, not an obsolete, forgotten technique by King Kai no brings up at aaaaalllll after Namek, it was Super Saiyan. And Toriyama, the guy writing this, clearly forgot about it since his script for U6 didn't specify its use, if Toriyama specifically wanted KK back into the loop, he'd have had Toyotaro do it in the manga but it wasn't. The following Black arc in the anime has also purposefully chosen to outright ignore it (we see Zamasu watch Goku vs Hit only up until before Goku use KK) meaning it has gone back into the dust bins of DB history.

Goten and Trunks are most definitely holding back since they too fight other ordinary humans and they don't want anyone to know what their identity is. #18 is also holding back as she doesn't want to use anywhere near her full power to inadvertently kill someone. Goten and Trunks are also arrogant little shits and quite stupid with little the way of properly gauging an opponent's strength, Gotenks isn't an insufferable dipshit for no good reason after all. That's why I don't take anything the brats say seriously, especially when they think they're going to win.

[Lionel]

The mere concept of anyone opposing Freeza with some appreciable degree of success was astonishing enough of a revelation for Beerus to excitedly flip out. Whis had yet to showcase the battle which prompted Beerus to inquire about the strangeness of Goku's hair and features relative to the average Saiyan's. It's puzzling how a technique with such potentially decisive applications in combat -- developed by a subsidiary Kaio who imparted the knowledge on how to use it only to one mortal -- never caught the attention of any other celestial being. The Spirit Bomb is worthy enough for consideration by Cell in spite of his paradoxical nature and then later Vegeta, but the Kaioken never is referenced beyond the Daizenshuu and Toei inspired content. Well I place it under the same category of grievously misused abilities like the Devilmite Beam and Thunder Shock Surprise. It still doesn't refute the fact that Beerus was neglectful of the details surrounding Goku's power progression after the battle with Freeza.

So they would purposefully restrain themselves against an opponent whom, according to your logic, already exceeds their maximum base power by several magnitudes even though it stands in contradiction to their verbal weariness of her power? They correctly assessed the positioning of her strength relative to their fathers some time back but they're going to flagrantly brag about their chances while somehow doing the complete opposite by taking the fight completely seriously with no belittling of their opponent's chances whatsoever? Nothing about their characterisation at the time resembled the overly brazen and playful Gotenks. Both the manga's portrayal and the Daizenshuu coincide with the kids being comparable in power to #18. Both parties were experiencing first-hand the depth of the other's power. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to mentally estimate how much power you need to overwhelm this strange opponent. Nothing implies either side was restricting themselves, neither do any of the informational guides suggest it either. Literally the only counter evidence comes from a myopic quote stated in a movie developed twenty years later which has already been negated in its authenticity to canon by the anime series' conflicting material. I'm still waiting for that pictorial evidence from the Super anime, by the way.

[ekrolo2]

The mere concept of anyone opposing Freeza with some appreciable degree of success was astonishing enough of a revelation for Beerus to excitedly flip out. Whis had yet to showcase the battle which prompted Beerus to inquire about the strangeness of Goku's hair and features relative to the average Saiyan's. It's puzzling how a technique with such potentially decisive applications in combat -- developed by a subsidiary Kaio who imparted the knowledge on how to use it only to one mortal -- never caught the attention of any other celestial being. The Spirit Bomb is worthy enough for consideration by Cell in spite of his paradoxical nature and then later Vegeta, but the Kaioken never is referenced beyond the Daizenshuu and Toei inspired content. Well I place it under the same category of grievously misused abilities like the Devilmite Beam and Thunder Shock Surprise. It still doesn't refute the fact that Beerus was neglectful of the details surrounding Goku's power progression after the battle with Freeza.

It's not very puzzling for me, at best, KK was nothing but a barely effective stalling tactic. Against Vegeta it merely delayed Goku's inevitable loss and against Freeza it did much of the same, failing to create any worthwhile contribution besides keeping Goku alive a while longer. It's not hard to see why it was tossed aside when a far more powerful boost in power, and a lot easier one for the body, was introduced and why Whis doesn't bother speaking of it to Beerus. Super Saiyan is the interesting/relevant part of the story, not an obsolete technique.

So they would purposefully restrain themselves against an opponent whom, according to your logic, already exceeds their maximum base power by several magnitudes even though it stands in contradiction to their verbal weariness of her power? They correctly assessed the positioning of her strength relative to their fathers some time back but they're going to flagrantly brag about their chances while somehow doing the complete opposite by taking the fight completely seriously with no belittling of their opponent's chances whatsoever? Nothing about their characterisation at the time resembled the overly brazen and playful Gotenks. Both the manga's portrayal and the Daizenshuu coincide with the kids being comparable in power to #18. Both parties were experiencing first-hand the depth of the other's power. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to mentally estimate how much power you need to overwhelm this strange opponent. Nothing implies either side was restricting themselves, neither do any of the informational guides suggest it either. Literally the only counter evidence comes from a myopic quote stated in a movie developed twenty years later which has already been negated in its authenticity to canon by the anime series' conflicting material. I'm still waiting for that pictorial evidence from the Super anime, by the way.

The fact #18 and Mighty Mask are fighting regular humans proves they're restricting themselves, otherwise they'd be killing people inadvertently left and right. #18 has a motivation to keep suppressing herself against Mighty Mask because she doesn't want to overestimate his abilities and killing him, thereby kicking her out of the tournament. The boys don't want to take her on for real because they run the risk of revealing themselves and letting her expose them which would also get them disqualified which is exactly what happened when they turned SS.

As for the pictorial evidence, here it is:
[spoiler]



[/spoiler]

[Lionel]

The Kaioken was lacking in finality due to the framework of the story at the time emphasising a gradual escalation of tension and expectative advancement for the protagonists through constant unveilings of alien beings with greater and greater amounts of power; so enormous, in fact, that they overshadowed everyone besides Goku who was still at an enormous disadvantage against both Vegeta and Freeza. It's hardly a coincidence how antagonists following the Freeza arc often weren't created strictly through their own faculties but rather through judgmental error and miscalculation on part of the protagonists who underestimated the enormity of danger presented by turning a blind eye to a proverbial weed that's not being nipped in the bud. Even in the prior arcs of DBZ, there was nothing in the way of Goku immediately accessing the highest levels of Kaioken at the onset of his battles and then proceeding to plunge his fist into the skulls of adversaries. What stopped him is the same flimsy pretext ailing these enraptured Saiyans later on -- i.e. a thirst to test their mettle against the newest opponent.

It just so happens the Saiyans and their biological capacity for transforming superseded most other characters in the story. Kaioken's obsolescence is limited to Goku once he dedicated himself to perfect his Saiyan transformation. Nothing was preventing the likes of Piccolo from gaining this technique except Toriyama's whims and his fixation with asserting Saiyan hegemony over everything important in the plot. Toriyama could have written some of the other god characters as having had the knowledge of Kaioken's mechanics shared with them by King Kai. Does this happen? No, of course not.

Several pages had intermediately passed between those humans being knocked from the ring and the actual fight beginning. Both characters had enough time to ponder on the coming collision of their powers. Both children are aware of just how powerful #18 is -- as I reiterate, they have literally no incentive to restrain themselves. #18 isn't some substandard novice who's incapable of precisely regulating the strength behind her attacks. These unexpressed fears about her restricting herselves against an opponent who is clearly on-par with her seem to fall under the category as the invisible Kaioken myth. Nothing in either the manga or Danzehuuu reaffirms this claim.

In responce to your pictures -- having looked over the segment of the episode when Beerus makes these quotes, I feel that context is important here. Beerus first critiqued Base Goku when he was calmly standing in place at King Kai's insistence that he remain courteous. Before this he was ushered off into hiding, likely suppressed, before being called out by Beerus whom Goku had no reason to project his strength yet as he was only greeting the deity. Immediately after the final panel you posted, Beerus goes on to describe his idea that Goku wouldn't be capable of defeating anyone stronger than Freeza; this we know is false as SSJ Goku was shown to be more powerful than Kaioshin, the god who acts as a critical lifeline to Beerus and should be well known to other gods but was strangely left out of the conversation for some reason.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

It doesn't matter if Kaioken is a technique and not a state of being. Goku wasn't using it. Beerus stated that the man that was right in front of him as he was at the time was weaker than Frieza. Nothing more. He was not using Kaioken. People need to stop reaching.

Frieza would murder Goten and Trunks with complete ease if they stayed in base. They would crush him as Super Saiyans though since they were stated to at least be on par with #18.

[TheUltimateNinja]

It doesn't matter if Kaioken is a technique and not a state of being. Goku wasn't using it. Beerus stated that the man that was right in front of him as he was at the time was weaker than Frieza. Nothing more. He was not using Kaioken. People need to stop reaching.

Frieza would murder Goten and Trunks with complete ease if they stayed in base. They would crush him as Super Saiyans though since they were stated to at least be on par with #18.

What if Frieza decided to do a few minutes of training while the kids mess around?

[MaxZ]

Goten and Trunks are not strong enough, not even as Super Saiyans, to defeat 100% Frieza. they could probably fight on par with 70% Frieza, maybe.

[dragonball0900]

Right, let's see here. I think Goten and Trunks can stomp Frieza easily. They fought equally with A18 even in base! I think people should remember that the kids never fought A18 directly as SSJ in the manga, and A18 was scared of a fully supressed ki blast of SSJ Trunks, that blast was really supressed and yet 18 wanted to finish the battle sooner, it implies that Goten and Trunks should be stronger than her as SSJs, but not in base. I personally have them between Imperfect Cell/A16 to Semi Perfect Cell. After the ROSAT training, I have them around Piccolo's level, whose power I have to be stronger than ASSJ Vegeta, but weaker than a Cell Jr.