Why Does The Japanese Version Have A Bad Rep?

[Hellspawn28]

I notice with Dragon Ball subbed, it's more popular with the older generation with the 30+ age group while the 20+ age group can't get into the series subbed. I already like anime before I was a fan of Dragon Ball and I had Japanese collector shops near by me growing up, so I guess I was lucky enough to see Dragon Ball episodes and movies before they got dubbed into English as a kid. I remember one kid got mad when I told him that Goku will defeat Buu and he wanted Gohan to save the day so badly .

[8000 Saiyan]

Just look at the comments section of any YouTube video.

Yeah, you're right. The comments section can get really intense. I'd recommend fans to never scroll down there.

The people who hate Nozawa's Goku ironically love Linda Young's Frieza, but that's probably the nostalgia glasses.

[precita]

I wonder how these people feel about watching Super subbed all this time? I assume most of them have been watching Super subbed since its been 64 episodes already, the dub is still not out, but they don't want to fall behind.

[huzaifa_ahmed]

I wonder how these people feel about watching Super subbed all this time? I assume most of them have been watching Super subbed since its been 64 episodes already, the dub is still not out, but they don't want to fall behind.

It's what happened with Naruto, Bleach, & other shows. It's pointless to complain about changes because the Japanese version always exists (like for almost all non-DB anime), & that usual niche audience would find & prefer the Japanese version anyway, as seen in the example of DB Super. There are now DBZ-dub fans that (like their usual preference) prefer the Japanese version. It has nothing to do with quality & everything to do with availability - & at least the massive success of the dub guaranteed availability of the Japanese version. My point has never been "the dub is a good representation of the show", rather "if the dub had been done accurately...no one would care, we'd all just watch subs together anyway", & as a more rooted part of the problem..

..."Don't blame poor non-union upstart saps for badly handling a massive property that they shouldnt have gotten in the first place!...Blame Toei/Shueisha/whoever". Without proper funding for the dubs, people fall off - not everyone wants to watch subs. Look how well Pokemon & recently Yokai Watch have done, thanks to Nintendo themselves handling the show.

As for my defense of what FUNi ended up doing w/the dub...the people who loved the story so much...eventually watched it in Japanese, anyway. Part of what allowed FUNi to get quick, cheap, subtitled releases (which people praise them for, & expect out of current anime releases), is the dub's success. Without the Toonami boom, so many anime would've sold rather mediocre numbers, & even the Japanese industry wouldve been much smaller.

Now, Dragon Ball is different because (partially thanks to Toei's boneheadedness) it's stuck to mainly Japan, but there are several successful Americanized foreign franchises with a niche audience of the original - Pokemon, YGO, Sonic, Voltron, Robotech/Macross, Transformers (toys were Japanese, & many of the shows have Japanese directors).

Beyond that, Fukunaga, as one guy, tried to get a faithful dub on the side - that Geneon movie dub was intended to work for the whole series. If Toei had funded it, it wouldnt have been an issue. As a fan of a dub/whatever, you should never simply "resort to subs/manga because you're impatient for the dub/anime". I mean that's what ends up happening, but really it'd be nice if you appreciate that medium for what it is. & companies, if they can afford it, should care about the deepest localization possible - that includes voice-over.

Sorry for the rant...Should probably vlog on this subject..

[TheGreatness25]

Why in the world is it that every time someone mentions liking the dub more, that person gets attacked about how it's a shame or how the dub sucks, etc.?

This doesn't happen every single time, but the entire point of this particular thread is to ask why the Japanese version might have a bad reputation. Very legitimate arguments about the dub's pitfalls are extremely relevant to bring up and discuss in detail.

I didn't mean in this thread; I meant in general. Obviously this threat invites this stuff, but the reason that a thread like this exists is because of that combative mentality in the first place from both sides.

[huzaifa_ahmed]

I wonder how these people feel about watching Super subbed all this time? I assume most of them have been watching Super subbed since its been 64 episodes already, the dub is still not out, but they don't want to fall behind.

It's what happened with Naruto, Bleach, & other shows. It's pointless to complain about changes because the Japanese version always exists (like for almost all non-DB anime), & that usual niche audience would find & prefer the Japanese version anyway, as seen in the example of DB Super. There are now DBZ-dub fans that (like their usual preference) prefer the Japanese version. It has nothing to do with quality & everything to do with availability - & at least the massive success of the dub guaranteed availability of the Japanese version. My point has never been "the dub is a good representation of the show", rather "if the dub had been done accurately...no one would care, we'd all just watch subs together anyway", & as a more rooted part of the problem..

..."Don't blame poor non-union upstart saps for badly handling a massive property that they shouldnt have gotten in the first place!...Blame Toei/Shueisha/whoever". Without proper funding for the dubs, people fall off - not everyone wants to watch subs. Look how well Pokemon & recently Yokai Watch have done, thanks to Nintendo themselves handling the show.

As for my defense of what FUNi ended up doing w/the dub...the people who loved the story so much...eventually watched it in Japanese, anyway. Part of what allowed FUNi to get quick, cheap, subtitled releases (which people praise them for, & expect out of current anime releases), is the dub's success. Without the Toonami boom, so many anime would've sold rather mediocre numbers, & even the Japanese industry wouldve been much smaller.

Now, Dragon Ball is different because (partially thanks to Toei's boneheadedness) it's stuck to mainly Japan, but there are several successful Americanized foreign franchises with a niche audience of the original - Pokemon, YGO, Sonic, Voltron, Robotech/Macross, Transformers (toys were Japanese, & many of the shows have Japanese directors).

Beyond that, Fukunaga, as one guy, tried to get a faithful dub on the side - that Geneon movie dub was intended to work for the whole series. If Toei had funded it, it wouldnt have been an issue. As a fan of a dub/whatever, you should never simply "resort to subs/manga because you're impatient for the dub/anime". I mean that's what ends up happening, but really it'd be nice if you appreciate that medium for what it is. & companies, if they can afford it, should care about the deepest localization possible - that includes voice-over.

Sorry for the rant...Should probably vlog on this subject..

..
Once again, I apologize for these mental breakdowns of mine. It's a really silly subject to get over my head..lol

[8000 Saiyan]

Ryo Horikawa is one voice I wish had carried over into the English version, it's that good.

I know that Horikawa can speak English, but I think Engrish would sound so awkward in an English version of Dragon Ball.

[huzaifa_ahmed]

Ryo Horikawa is one voice I wish had carried over into the English version, it's that good.

I know that Horikawa can speak English, but I think Engrish would sound so awkward in an English version of Dragon Ball.

Aha, yes. Miyuki Sawashiro dubbed herself in a show called DiGi Charat, & Makiko Omoto re-records lines with an English-language accent for Smash Bros. Off the bat, I think Joji Nakata can speak decent English as well. He sounds maybe like Kevin Conroy when he does speak English, maybe a bit deeper but still really rough & aged. Conversely, Crispin Freeman, Yuri Lowenthal, JM Tatum, & Chris Jai Alex can speak at least decent Japanese. Sam Riegel also studied Japanese in college. Sasaki-san from Jump speaks English (he was in an anime called Bakuman), but he did not voice himself in the show. These crossover details are fun tbh.

[sangofe]

How come the Japanese version has such a bad rep with the Western fandom? When I was growing up, the Japanese version of Dragon Ball seem like some dark and edgy thing that you had to really track down yourself. You had to know some cool kid in your school to get a Japanese tapes or go any local Japanese collector shop, or a Fee Market. I remember on the web during the early-mid 2000's that the Japanese version was the most popular version of the show on most websites and it was rare to have someone to like the Toonami broadcast dub. Now it seems like Kanzenshuu and the DB forums on Gamefaqs are the only place that really likes the Japanese version.

I also notice that people are okay with watching anime like Naruto, Sailor Moon, Pokemon, One Piece, Bleach and Digimon sub, but Dragon Ball is some reason no one can enjoy subbed. Not to mention that Kai is the English dub that stays faithful to the Japanese scripts that fans wanted for years and yet it's hated by people for not being like the dub of DBZ that used to be on Toonami in the 90's.

Why haven't I heard it has a bad reputation?

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Personally, one dub voice that I do enjoy (nay, prefer), is Scott McNeil as Piccolo, in the Pioneer dubs. I know many here dislike the extra cost (as well as principle) of "dubbing" in the first place (ideally theyd reanimate, but then again, Toei & cheap), but Scott has a resume much thicker than Toshio Furukawa's & under proper conditions & script he'd have done even better. Ryo Horikawa is one voice I wish had carried over into the English version, it's that good. Sabat has a big voice, but..that's not Vegeta

I'd agree with you on Scott McNeil. He is a rare exception in the Dragon Ball dubs (perhaps the only case) where I feel the performance fit the character better than the Japanese actor. That said I can imagine Vegeta with both Sabat and Horikawa's voices (and even Drummond at certain points, particularly the Saiyan arc and Majin Vegeta) as the former actor has done an INCREDIBLE job since Kai.

Although I don't think dub actors should be required to imitate the original actor, but rather do their own interpretation while keeping with the spirit of the character (Schemmel does a great job of this while playing Goku).

While I agree with this statement in general but I do think it's impossible to imitate Adult Goku's Japanese in a dub hell probably even in it's own language it'll be hard that's how great and unique Nozawa is. Right now I think Schemmel's Goku is currently at a place where a dubbed Goku is as perfect as we can get.
Everyone bangs on about Kelamis being the perfect Goku in terms of matching with Nozawa but it was just one scream the rest of his performance was forgettable.

[8000 Saiyan]

Everyone bangs on about Kelamis being the perfect Goku in terms of matching with Nozawa but it was just one scream the rest of his performance was forgettable.

Why do you say this? Not everyone thinks Kelamis was perfect as Goku. You either like him or hate him. If he had been given more time, then he could have been perfect, but that's just me.

[ABED]

Everyone bangs on about Kelamis being the perfect Goku in terms of matching with Nozawa but it was just one scream the rest of his performance was forgettable.

Why do you say this? Not everyone thinks Kelamis was perfect as Goku. You either like him or hate him. If he had been given more time, then he could have been perfect, but that's just me.

I didn't want to give him more time than we got - close to 20 episodes and 3 movies.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Everyone bangs on about Kelamis being the perfect Goku in terms of matching with Nozawa but it was just one scream the rest of his performance was forgettable.

Why do you say this? Not everyone thinks Kelamis was perfect as Goku. You either like him or hate him. If he had been given more time, then he could have been perfect, but that's just me.

I don't know if Kelamis would have been perfect but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt as the Pioneer trilogy was the only time he had adequate direction. If he took time to learn the character of Goku as Schemmel did his performance most likely could have improved.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Everyone bangs on about Kelamis being the perfect Goku in terms of matching with Nozawa but it was just one scream the rest of his performance was forgettable.

Why do you say this? Not everyone thinks Kelamis was perfect as Goku. You either like him or hate him. If he had been given more time, then he could have been perfect, but that's just me.

I've seen a fair few comments of people saying he's as close to Nowaza as we'd get anyway that's all ifs buts and maybes. You can't judge someone on them potentially being good cuz they did one great scene. He was as mediocre and generic as a Goku could get nothing like Nozawa at all.

[huzaifa_ahmed]

While I agree with this statement in general but I do think it's impossible to imitate Adult Goku's Japanese in a dub hell probably even in it's own language it'll be hard that's how great and unique Nozawa is. Right now I think Schemmel's Goku is currently at a place where a dubbed Goku is as perfect as we can get. Everyone bangs on about Kelamis being the perfect Goku in terms of matching with Nozawa but it was just one scream the rest of his performance was forgettable.

Typed this out already once, so I'll keep it short & say that there's a bucketlist of voice actors, Japanese & otherwise, that could bring the personality of Goku to life. Off the top of my head, Megumi Han springs to mind. For a female English VA I'd say maybe EG Daily or Tara Strong, realistcially maybe Mona Marshall. Sean Schemmel is fine I guess, & his performance is very good, but if they really wanted to start fresh in Kai-onward, they'd have recasted everyone, & that wouldnt work because...the biggest draw of the DBZ dub is the Americanized castings. Toei was never really interested in super-accurate localizations (ahem Power Rangers, Saban Digimon, 4Kids One Piece, DiC Sailor Moon, "Glitter Force", etc), & they in no way, shape, or form, want to detract from the profits that the Americanized dub brings in. The only reason we have accurate scripts/OST now is because fansubs are immediately available. Some hardcore nostalgics dislike it, but as ABED said, "fans are like patients".

TLDR it's totally possible to do better, but money.

[8000 Saiyan]

For a female English VA I'd say maybe EG Daily or Tara Strong, realistcially maybe Mona Marshall.

No matter how hard I try, I just can't see an English voice actress working as adult Goku. Those three ladies could have worked as Kid Goku, though.

[huzaifa_ahmed]

For a female English VA I'd say maybe EG Daily or Tara Strong, realistcially maybe Mona Marshall.

No matter how hard I try, I just can't see an English voice actress working as adult Goku. Those three ladies could have worked as Kid Goku, though.

I don't think language somehow changes things. If Masako Nozawa had extensive English-language training, would her performance be any better than that of someone who, like Nozawa, was talented at voicing young boys, & similarly took some of those characters into their adulthood? I dont know if that can be said. The language barrier, on an audience level, makes it difficult to criticize that performance without coming off as dismissive or possibly racist. Timbre & acting isnt a language-based thing. You have very deep bass voices, like Michael Clarke Duncan, KMR, James Earl Jones, Blu Mankuma, etc., in Japanese, too (Tessho Genda, Ryuzaburo Otomo, Banjo Ginga etc.), & you have gruff female voices like Nancy Cartwright & EG Daily (Minami Takayama, Junko Takeuchi etc.). Acting is based on the industry & the stories the market dictates be told.

The truth of the matter is that Toei, in keeping Nozawa, Tanaka, Kusao, Horikawa, etc., throughout the characters' run, regardless of age, was entrenched in the Japanese loyalty to their VAs. Disney & WB do this as well, but I think age changes do happen, & quite often so. Ultimately, the issue with keeping child voices as adult versions...is that the reason they were cast in the first place is because of that younger-aged sound - acting is acting, sure, but ideally you get a male for a male, female for a female, etc., & you only got a female VA for a kid, because actual kids grow up, & having a guy do it is painful & often unnecessary. (Disney casts so well with this in mind). The counter-argument would be "well, it takes away from the consistency of the voice", but...does Jason Marsden's teenage Clark Kent make Tim Daly's adult Superman unbelievable? Does Ayumi Fujiwara as young Polnareff not sound more believable than Komatsu's higher pitch? Isn't Mona Marshall's young Shu (from Blue Dragon) so much more believable than Yuri Lowenthal's?

* As Trunks is introduced as a young man, he gets a young-ish tenor voice, similar to Horikawa, but less aged/husky-sounding. Yamcha has a similar VA as he, too, is introduced as a teenager. Tenshinhan is introduced a bit older, & a much more serious character, & stays that way pretty much. He gets a manly baritone voice. Now, I'm not saying "change everybody with every timeskip!", but just that it's clear that the casting is based on the introduction, regardless of how age & growth (& testosterone! - or lack of it) would change that person. (It's much easier for an audience who properly started from episode 1, to go along with it, but it's still not really ideal considering Toei's pools of money)

Don't get me wrong - the camp that entirely dismisses the Japanese VO & simply skips it altogether because Nozawa voices Goku, & someone else(everyone else, actually) has a dude? It's pretty much just a DBZ thing, but anyhow, I'm not part of that camp.

[8000 Saiyan]

For a female English VA I'd say maybe EG Daily or Tara Strong, realistcially maybe Mona Marshall.

No matter how hard I try, I just can't see an English voice actress working as adult Goku. Those three ladies could have worked as Kid Goku, though.

I don't think language somehow changes things. If Masako Nozawa had extensive English-language training, would her performance be any better than that of someone who, like Nozawa, was talented at voicing young boys, & similarly took some of those characters into their adulthood? I dont know if that can be said. The language barrier, on an audience level, makes it difficult to criticize that performance without coming off as dismissive or possibly racist. Timbre & acting isnt a language-based thing. You have very deep bass voices, like Michael Clarke Duncan, KMR, James Earl Jones, Blu Mankuma, etc., in Japanese, too (Tessho Genda, Ryuzaburo Otomo, Banjo Ginga etc.), & you have gruff female voices like Nancy Cartwright & EG Daily (Minami Takayama, Junko Takeuchi etc.). Acting is based on the industry & the stories the market dictates be told.

The truth of the matter is that Toei, in keeping Nozawa, Tanaka, Kusao, Horikawa, etc., throughout the characters' run, regardless of age, was entrenched in the Japanese loyalty to their VAs. Disney & WB do this as well, but I think age changes do happen, & quite often so. Ultimately, the issue with keeping child voices as adult versions...is that the reason they were cast in the first place is because of that younger-aged sound - acting is acting, sure, but ideally you get a male for a male, female for a female, etc. Disney casts so well. The counter-argument would be "well, it takes away from the consistency of the voice", but...does Jason Marsden's teenage Clark Kent make Tim Daly's adult Superman unbelievable? Does Ayumi Fujiwara as young Polnareff not sound more believable than Komatsu's higher pitch? Isn't Mona Marshall's young Shu (from Blue Dragon) so much more believable than Yuri Lowenthal's?

Don't get me wrong - the camp that entirely dismisses the Japanese VO & simply skips it altogether because Nozawa voices Goku, & someone else(everyone else, actually) has a dude? It's pretty much just a DBZ thing, but anyhow, I'm not part of that camp.

I am of the belief that there are things that work in a particular language that wouldn't work in another language. I can't help but think that an adult Goku voiced by a female English voice actress would sound so awkward. Yet somehow, it works in Japanese, perhaps because Japanese is a language that is vastly different from English. And despite those three ladies being great at what they do, they would sound so awkward not because of their acting, but because of their voices. I'm baffled that you think Janyse Jaud, a voice actress with one of the sexiest voices of all time, would work for Goku. I don't see how she would sound similar to Nozawa, unless you think Nozawa's voice is sexy. An adult male is the way to go in English.

[huzaifa_ahmed]

I am of the belief that there are things that work in a particular language that wouldn't work in another language. I can't help but think that an adult Goku voiced by a female English voice actress would sound so awkward. Yet somehow, it works in Japanese, perhaps because Japanese is a language that is vastly different from English. And despite those three ladies being great at what they do, they would sound so awkward not because of their acting, but because of their voices. I'm baffled that you think Janyse Jaud, a voice actress with one of the sexiest voices of all time, would work for Goku. I don't see how she would sound similar to Nozawa, unless you think Nozawa's voice is sexy. An adult male is the way to go in English.

Yeah, grammar, spelling, syntax, & pun jokes. Again, the Japanese like Nozawa because that's just ingrained in what the character *is*, for them. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but to say that Nozawa (or some other female VA) speaking English with similar characteristics & mannerisms as Goku's Japanese performance...wouldnt be a good performance...I don't think language changes anything, but the culture might, & the fact that adult male Goku for dubs is just what it's been, so you might not imagine a female Goku VA. We have female VAs for Luffy & Naruto, heck even 4Kids had a female Luffy VA. Similar personalities, though Goku gets a lot more muscular in appearance.


Although I admit, I take back Janyse Jaud. That was a dumb attempt at going a bit deeper, which misses the overall point of Nozawa criticisms, i.e. that it simply has no reason to be a female VA.

[8000 Saiyan]

I am of the belief that there are things that work in a particular language that wouldn't work in another language. I can't help but think that an adult Goku voiced by a female English voice actress would sound so awkward. Yet somehow, it works in Japanese, perhaps because Japanese is a language that is vastly different from English. And despite those three ladies being great at what they do, they would sound so awkward not because of their acting, but because of their voices. I'm baffled that you think Janyse Jaud, a voice actress with one of the sexiest voices of all time, would work for Goku. I don't see how she would sound similar to Nozawa, unless you think Nozawa's voice is sexy. An adult male is the way to go in English.

Yeah, grammar, spelling, syntax, & pun jokes. Again, the Japanese like Nozawa because that's just ingrained in what the character *is*, for them. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but to say that Nozawa (or some other female VA) speaking English with similar characteristics & mannerisms as Goku's Japanese performance...wouldnt be a good performance...I don't think language changes anything, but the culture might, & the fact that adult male Goku for dubs is just what it's been, so you might not imagine a female Goku VA. We have female VAs for Luffy & Naruto, heck even 4Kids had a female Luffy VA. Similar personalities, though Goku gets a lot more muscular in appearance.


Although I admit, I take back Janyse Jaud. That was a dumb attempt at going a bit deeper, which misses the overall point of Nozawa criticisms, i.e. that it simply has no reason to be a female VA.

I think Nozawa's voice is so unique that it can't work in English. Women trying to sound like men just come off as sounding awkward to me, although I have to admit I have a soft spot for Sarah Strange's Ranma. I love the dub, but Cox should have been Ranma from the beginning.