What if the SOCIAL MEDIA had existed back during the Buu Saga?

[JulieYBM]

I don't think the reaction to Goten and Trunks being Super Saiyans would be as bad as the reaction to Caulifla and Kale. MasenkoHA is right, the misogyny is the real kicker there.

Indeed.

While people did- and still do- complain about Goten and Trunks getting it easily, I feel like it's never been that much of a sticking point with them. Those that don't care for it just kind of accept it and move on despite not liking it.

With Caulifla and Kale, it's more of a sticking point that the detractors just can't get past. This is where I think the misogyny comes into play. With Goten and Trunks it's like- people complained that they got it easily, but it never felt like those people were quitely arguing that they shouldn't have it at all. With the Saiyan girls, it feels like that's the quiet part that isn't being said when the complaints about them come up- That they shouldn't have it at all because they didn't reach it the proper way.

They would inevitably complain about Videl being antagonistic towards male characters, though.

I remember finding it weird when I started seeing some people on here describing Videl in ways that come off like the implicit argument being made to justify her sidelining is that "she needed to be put in her place because she's nowhere near Goku and co" along with negative descriptions of her assertive personality. I've personally always found that charming about her so it felt weird to start coming across people describing that quality in negative terms in relation to her. It made me suspect that this was probably a sentiment that's always existed in some form and I just happened to never run into those types before.

Yeah, something I began to notice more of in recent years as bigger western brands employed more and more assertive female characters is this reactionary voice that wants to frame a woman coming into conflict with men as a wide-spread cultural 'attack on men' or whatever. This has always been a sentiment, but I've noticed those voices growing louder and louder over the years, so I definitely think that if the Majin Buu arc of Dragon Ball was the new hotness in that regard Videl would absolutely be a target for that subset of men.

Like, speaking as a woman myself, I want female characters to experience a wide-range of emotions and arcs. Videl in general dissapoints me in the Majin Buu arc because we don't really get insight into her as a character. We're always viewing her from the outside and having to loosely connect dots about her desires for herself. Like, she fights, her dad's cringe, and she melts the second a guy compliments her looks (she's just like me frfr), but beyond that she's entirely dropped way too soon, and frankly I don't think arbitrarily making a female character act tough works if you don't get deeper into who she is as a character. The problem is that Toriyama never actually connects with her in any meaningful way, I think that that translates to her character being underbaked from the beginning. Like, in my Professional Opinion As A Woman: I need more than that before I call Videl some great female character. Women are so much more than Videl's lukewarm (and woefully without fun) giving Gohan the side-eye.

[super michael]

Goten got Super Saiyan after Chi Chi kicked him in a training session and made him angry. Or was this anime filler?

Either way, Goten and Trunks arguably got Super Saiyan more easily and quickly than Cabba, Caulifla, and Kale. Vegeta even pointed out in the BUU SAGA that the Super Saiyan form was cheapened. People just have short memories to think this phenomenon only started in Super.

Goten turning Super Saiyan against Chi Chi was filler, in the manga Goten say he doesn't know when he got it.
Chi Chi taught Goten some moves, while Gohan was studying.

I agree getting Super Saiyan was easy to get in the Boo Saga.

No, they couldn't, because then they'd be too similar to the Main universe's Saiyans.

The point of the U6 Saiyans is that they are supposed to feel "alien" to Goku and Vegeta, the PoV Saiyans. So they are slim and without visible muscles in their relaxed forms.

It's actually good world-building and an efficient way to showcase that these Saiyans from another universe have an entirely different culture and history compared to our PoV Saiyans.

I still think having mucles won't make them the same like Universe 7 Saiyan, they would still be lean and thin.

With Caulifla and Kale, it's more of a sticking point that the detractors just can't seem to get past. This is where I think the misogyny comes into play. With Goten and Trunks it's like- people complained that they got it easily, but it never felt like those people were quitely arguing that they shouldn't have it at all. With the Saiyan girls, it feels like that's the quiet part that isn't being said when the complaints about them come up- That they shouldn't have it at all because they didn't reach it the proper way, the way the guys did it (and sometimes its not even all that quiet).

I was around when people complained about SSJ turning into "tingly feeling" to unlock SSJ. Maybe not in Kanzenshuu but other website.
When people see it as tingly back, then yes it can seem back. But seems more about focusing ki to a specific body part.
I guess for people that does martial art and tai chi, it makes more sense about focusing ki.

I really doubt it has anything to do with misogyny, at least I hope that it has nothing to do with it.

[JulieYBM]

It's misogyny. It's the hatred of women. Even in the year 2024 CE our societies still implant from birth the idea that women and femininity mean weakness and lesser than men from. Women are encouraged to be more like men, because that's better than being women, but only to the degree that men can still turn around and then impose their will for said women to be feminine for their own misogynistic and sexual desire.

Women are still in legal, financial, and cultural servitude to men, and then boys and men are raised to both expect the promise of controlling their own women, seeing women as an 'other' not to be related to, and to hate should a woman rebel from this system. Fans who hate Caulifla and Kale because they don't cower before men, and even pick fights with them and challenge their authority as men. Misogynistic male fans spent plenty of time posting about how Caulifla wasn't showing Gokuu any respect when the Tournament of Power was first airing.

I wouldn't reccomend going out and watching reactionary streamers or YouTubers at all, but if one ever does you'll seen plenty of videos about how [legacy franchise x, y and z] are now ruined because a woman, or a BIPOC person or a queer person—or someone who is all three—exists and is either in conflict with a cishet white guy or is more important to a story than a cishet white guy. It's the same general principle.

If Goten and Trunks had been girls and achieved the Super Saiyan form relatively easily like they do in the Majin Buu arc proper the uproar would have been something we'd still be hearing about today. The internet as it exists today is a tool for right-wing reactionary assholes to flood the algorithm with their bullshit so that it becomes untenable to feature and cater to anyone who isn't a white, cishet, patriarchical audience.

[tonysoprano300]

For me, the TOP was just so boring that I couldn’t bring myself to care about anything including the main cast. I honestly can’t even remember that much about Kale&Caulifla in terms of characterization and development because it doesn’t really have any impact on the story or the wider narrative. This applies to most of the universes honestly, everything just feels like padding in anticipation for the fight with Jiren.If anything I wish they were in a better arc where their characters journeys have serious importance in the overall story. So if I'm thinking back to something like the relationship between Mr.Satan and Buu, I can watch that portion of the Buu arc and know exactly what the relevance of it is a broader narrative while also loving the way their relationship develops.

Right wing media literacy can definitely be very problematic, TLOU2 was one of my favourite games and the entire online discourse about that made it so that I didn’t even wanna talk about it anymore.

[super michael]

It's misogyny. It's the hatred of women. Even in the year 2024 CE our societies still implant from birth the idea that women and femininity mean weakness and lesser than men from. Women are encouraged to be more like men, because that's better than being women, but only to the degree that men can still turn around and then impose their will for said women to be feminine for their own misogynistic and sexual desire.

Women are still in legal, financial, and cultural servitude to men, and then boys and men are raised to both expect the promise of controlling their own women, seeing women as an 'other' not to be related to, and to hate should a woman rebel from this system. Fans who hate Caulifla and Kale because they don't cower before men, and even pick fights with them and challenge their authority as men. Misogynistic male fans spent plenty of time posting about how Caulifla wasn't showing Gokuu any respect when the Tournament of Power was first airing.

I wouldn't reccomend going out and watching reactionary streamers or YouTubers at all, but if one ever does you'll seen plenty of videos about how [legacy franchise x, y and z] are now ruined because a woman, or a BIPOC person or a queer person—or someone who is all three—exists and is either in conflict with a cishet white guy or is more important to a story than a cishet white guy. It's the same general principle.

If Goten and Trunks had been girls and achieved the Super Saiyan form relatively easily like they do in the Majin Buu arc proper the uproar would have been something we'd still be hearing about today. The internet as it exists today is a tool for right-wing reactionary assholes to flood the algorithm with their bullshit so that it becomes untenable to feature and cater to anyone who isn't a white, cishet, patriarchical audience.

I never watch any youtuber on what they think about any anime, the only videos I watch are the top animes. So I never watched any youtuber reaction at all. Sometimes there are times I don't know what anime to watch, so I get ideas.
The only youtuber I heard people talk about is Geek something, but I never watched his video.

If Goten and Trunks were female, I would still say the same as what I am saying now. They would be born from SSJ parents, who trained hard with their family and friends and in the special room. Their desire to get stronger in DBS would still be the same.
If everyone stops them from fighting, training and joining competition, I wouldn't be happy the same.



Caulifla was able to help Kale in many ways, it was thanks to her that Kale managed to stop going berserk, gain control of her berserk form and became a confident character.
Caulifla even asked Goku for tips, in how to get into SSJ2 form and even listened to Goku advice about SSJ Grade 2 and 3 weakness. I think she gained respect toward Goku, from Goku own action in the ToP. Now Caulifla has a goal to get higher forms than SSJ2, which is a great goal.
When it comes to fighting talent, Caulifla has it 100%.

[Hugo Boss]

In my experience, the reactions were highly polarized. There were intense debates over powerscalling,
artwork’s quality, story cohesiveness. Meanwhile, the pacing and character developments, particularly involving Gohan's role (what exactly Toriyama was trying to do with him?) would have been hot topics. At least, this was when it became evident that his final editor, Fuyuto Takeda, who took over around Cell Games, pretty much let Toriyama do what he wanted. But the introduction of new transformations and fusions along with Vegeta’s redemption and Satan’s hero journey certainly generated significant hype.

[dragonmagico]

the internet was alive and well both for the japanese broadcast and western ones... Op bro what you smokin

[Saiya6Cit]

I'm sorry I am having a hard time trying to understand the point of this post.


Reading through it did not help. But it seems to upset a bunch of people.

So, I guess I will just go by the title... hahaha


Manga industry back then did not need social media because it is a cheap publish medium and the number of issues of a manga would sell is the only indicator a publishing house needs to know if their product is doing well or not with the audience.

Many times they adjusted the DB story to suit the consumer demands. Vegeta is still around for that main reason. If the SSJ3 makes no sense if Gohan was supposed to be the main star of the show after he got the elder kai powers but they changed it because people only wanted more Goku and Vegeta... I don't mind. As a child I did not think about those matters. I fell inlove with DB because of its characters (for science fiction I have Issac Assimov and for fantasy I prefer Guillermo del Toro you know) I can overlook fillers and plotholes.

We got the best story Toriyama and his team could come up with. And that's it.

Finally, I am thankful for having grown up in a time before the internet was even a thing. Business were more serious. People were more respectful in general. Now, DBS was born is a world with social media but I can't provide any judgement on it as I did not watch it.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I'm sorry I am having a hard time trying to understand the point of this post.


Reading through it did not help. But it seems to upset a bunch of people.

So, I guess I will just go by the title... hahaha


Manga industry back then did not need social media because it is a cheap publish medium and the number of issues of a manga would sell is the only indicator a publishing house needs to know if their product is doing well or not with the audience.

Many times they adjusted the DB story to suit the consumer demands. Vegeta is still around for that main reason. If the SSJ3 makes no sense if Gohan was supposed to be the main star of the show after he got the elder kai powers but they changed it because people only wanted more Goku and Vegeta... I don't mind. As a child I did not think about those matters. I fell inlove with DB because of its characters (for science fiction I have Issac Assimov and for fantasy I prefer Guillermo del Toro you know) I can overlook fillers and plotholes.

We got the best story Toriyama and his team could come up with. And that's it.

Finally, I am thankful for having grown up in a time before the internet was even a thing. Business were more serious. People were more respectful in general. Now, DBS was born is a world with social media but I can't provide any judgement on it as I did not watch it.

I know my wording is really clunky and dumb and that I suck at making my point. But the point of the thread would be "How would online criticism look like if Social Media had existed during the Buu Saga." How would discourse of the final arc be then? Happy? Angry? Bitter? Hopeful? What would piss off people more? What would hype them up. What dissapointed them.

[JulieYBM]

"Read the new Dragon Ball today. Don't worry y'all, I'm sure Videl is going to unlock some hidden power and defeat Spopovich next chapter!"

[Cure Dragon 255]

"Read the new Dragon Ball today. Don't worry y'all, I'm sure Videl is going to unlock some hidden power and defeat Spopovich next chapter!"

This is so poignant. So sad. The Spopovich is so heartwrenching. I really hope my bro curates the scene for my little niece.

[super michael]

I highly doubt people would hated DB Boo Saga in the 90s when it was new, as much as DBS when it was new and now.

Fusion is a good idea, Goku learned it from aliens in otherworld. Goku gained SSJ2 and SSJ3 from training in otherworld.
Boo is made from magic and Potara are magical accessories.

Gohan is the first Saiyan to be able to access his whole power, without relying on any transformation. Gohan needed to be still for 24 hours, which isn't easy.



DBS they don't care about contradiction or if they go overboard. They don't care if the gag doesn't make sense or just out right ruin them. They think characters not being allowed to do anything or falling asleep is funny, but it is no funny at all.
We watch anime to see characters involved in the story, not being stopped or falling asleep.

Characters are supposed to have growth, they are not supposed to be worse than when they were younger. This applies to Goku, Chi Chi and Boo.


Power scale and weak training methods are not a problem in DB/DBZ, while in DBS it is really bad.

[MasenkoHA]

Gohan is the first Saiyan to be able to access his whole power, without relying on any transformation. Gohan needed to be still for 24 hours, which isn't easy.

I mean, it easy because he's getting his power up handed to him. No fighting, no training, no emotional trauma just "here ya go". It's a saving grace of the story that Gohan isn't the one who defeats Majin Boo the story repeats a similar plot beat from Daimao arc (hero gets power up given to them and then saves the day) and says "sike" even though it probably intended to play that same plot point straight

[JulieYBM]

Gohan is the first Saiyan to be able to access his whole power, without relying on any transformation. Gohan needed to be still for 24 hours, which isn't easy.

I mean, it easy because he's getting his power up handed to him. No fighting, no training, no emotional trauma just "here ya go". It's a saving grace of the story that Gohan isn't the one who defeats Majin Boo the story repeats a similar plot beat from Daimao arc (hero gets power up given to them and then saves the day) and says "sike" even though it probably intended to play that same plot point straight

And it's really tiring and meandering in the Majin Buu arc, too. At least the power up in the Daimaou arc failing didn't lead to numerous extra fights like it did in the Majin Buu arc.

[super michael]

Gohan is the first Saiyan to be able to access his whole power, without relying on any transformation. Gohan needed to be still for 24 hours, which isn't easy.

I mean, it easy because he's getting his power up handed to him. No fighting, no training, no emotional trauma just "here ya go". It's a saving grace of the story that Gohan isn't the one who defeats Majin Boo the story repeats a similar plot beat from Daimao arc (hero gets power up given to them and then saves the day) and says "sike" even though it probably intended to play that same plot point straight

On paper just sitting doesn't sound hard, however having the patience to stay 24 hours I can imagine is hard. The only reason that seems acceptable is because it involves a magical ritual.

As for Goku drinking the Ultra Divine Water, that was a magical water that can either increase the user power or kill the user.


However those seems more acceptable than Kuririn gym, Freeza beating Tagoma, Master Roshi secret training, C17 unknown training and Tenshinhan only training with Chiaotsu.


Piccolo asking Dende to unlock his potential seems smart and when that wasn't possible, he asked Shenron to unlock his potential. Piccolo idea was smart.

[MasenkoHA]

As for Goku drinking the Ultra Divine Water, that was a magical water that can either increase the user power or kill the user.

I'm well aware. That doesn't matter. "It could kill you" is just lip service. We know Goku will be fine. It doesn't change the fact that Karin goes "Hey remember when you thought I had magic water to make you super strong but it was actually me training you and the water was useless? What if I actually had MAGIC water? Here ya go sport"

The anime at least fixes this by turning it into a quest and a test of Goku's character when he's given temptation.

However those seems more acceptable than Kuririn gym, Freeza beating Tagoma, Master Roshi secret training, C17 unknown training and Tenshinhan only training with Chiaotsu.

Probably because those invovle characters actually training and not just getting power ups handed to them on a silver platter that resolved the conflict (or was going to resolve the conflict in Gohan'a case).

[Cure Dragon 255]

As for Goku drinking the Ultra Divine Water, that was a magical water that can either increase the user power or kill the user.

I'm well aware. That doesn't matter. "It could kill you" is just lip service. We know Goku will be fine. It doesn't change the fact that Karin goes "Hey remember when you thought I had magic water to make you super strong but it was actually me training you and the water was useless? What if I actually had MAGIC water? Here ya go sport"

The anime at least fixes this by turning it into a quest and a test of Goku's character when he's given temptation.

However those seems more acceptable than Kuririn gym, Freeza beating Tagoma, Master Roshi secret training, C17 unknown training and Tenshinhan only training with Chiaotsu.

Probably because those invovle characters actually training and not just getting power ups handed to them on a silver platter that resolved the conflict (or was going to resolve the conflict in Gohan'a case).

That's yet another Toei Time Stalling Technique that people dont really mind.

[90sDBZ]

I think SS3 would have gotten insane hype, probably comparable to UI if not more.

The buildup and subsequent discarding of Mystic Gohan would have triggered a lot of fans. But I'm sure the return of Goku and Vegeta would have made plenty of people happy.

Vegito would obviously get a huge reaction, similar to how he did in Super.

Basically, every retroactive opinion that people have shared online about the Buu Saga, except you'd get to see those reactions live.

[Koitsukai]

I do wonder if the fandom would've been begging for the arc to be over with like it happened with the Moro and the Granny arc. Buu gets plenty of breaks, Goku doesn't want to kill Buu, Gotenks screws up, Gohan is an idiot, Vegito had other plans, SS3 Goku fails again, Buu now shows up again... probably not, because it had more variety of heroes fighting Buu instead of switching the same two all the time. But it still was an arc that seemed to go forever.

I think it was better done than Super arc's climax, I feel the Cell arc would've gotten that type of opinion, though with Cell even in his 2nd form getting the upper hand even after his so-called self-destruction.

[MasenkoHA]

The Boo arc itself is as long as the Namek arc (72 episodes*) with way more going on so I don't know if fans could really argue it drags any worse that that.


* I guess if you count the Saiyaman arc as part of the Boo arc it's 92 episodes but then you'd have to play fair and count the Saiyan saga and Namek saga as a single arc, since one leads directly into the next, and that's 107 episodes