Vegeta: Inferiority Complex

Alias · Post by **Alias** » Mon May 24, 2004 8:13 pm

GT... *eye twitches*

I was just watching a few episodes yesterday and was surprised again and again by how out of character everyone was. Gohan, knocking his mother out of his way to talk to Bulma. Vegeta, attacking innocent workers at the Budoukai and acting as though he couldn't control his temper over the slightest annoyance (punching walls out of frustration?). Goten, dumber than he had ever been at 7. Etc.... It left me even more convinced that Piccolo's death early on was his way of taking the easy road out.

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Tue May 25, 2004 5:42 am

oponok wrote:Yes, the Buu saga gets wierd. I just theorize that Kid Buu is stronger than the other Buus in their "pure" state, which excludes Superl Buu once he absorbs Piccolo, Gotenks, and Mystic Gohan. Mr.Straight Fingers (because of the dub of the last volume of GT, this will forever be Goku's new name) does say that Kid Buu is stronger than all the previous Buus, but perhaps he refered to Buu in his natural state, not Super Buu once he's absorbed Gohan or Piccolo and Gotenks.

Kid Buu clearly wasn't the strongest form of Buu, regardless of what Goku may have said about him.

Super Buu (+Gohan) = too strong for Goku to fight directly, even with Vegeta's assistance. I'm pretty sure this is stated.

Super Buu (+Gotenks) = too strong for Goku to fight directly, even with Gohan's assistance.

Super Buu = too strong for Goku to fight directly, even with Vegeta's assistance. This is also stated.

Kid Buu = weak enough for Goku to fight evenly as Super Saiya-jin 3.

Goku also thought that Gotenks would be able to defeat Fat Buu before he knew that the fusion was capable of using Super Saiya-jin 3. So ordinary Super Saiya-jin Gotenks must have been stronger than SSJ2 Goku. Consequentially, SSJ3 Gotenks must have been much stronger than SSJ3 Goku, and Gohan was stronger than both of them.

oponok wrote:With this in-story explanation, it's still possible that Mystic Gohan could be stronger than SSJ3 Mr.Straight Fingers (which is what I'd like to believe, or else the Old Kai completely wasted everyone's time).

After training with the magic Kaioshin sword, SSJ2 Gohan was stronger than SSJ2 Goku. So unless Gohan's full potential is somehow less than a Super Saiya-jin 3 transformation, Gohan should be stronger.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Tue May 25, 2004 7:28 am

I don't think training with the sword did a thing to Gohan's power. The sword itself was supposed to help him defeat Buu.

Dayspring wrote:SSSJ3 Goku is stronger than "mystic" Gohan, despite the fact that that's impossible. SSJ3 Goku is enough to take out the strongest form of Boo (if he could attain full power in the real world), yet he sacrificed his sense of self/being in order to PERMANENTLY fuse with Vegeta; the purpose being so they could defeat a weaker form of Boo. Case in point: all of Boo saga not thought out.

Scale of Power:

Vegetto
Super Buu3
Super Buu2
Mystic Gohan
Super Buu1.5
SSJ3 Gotenks
Super Buu
SSJ3 Goku
Kid Buu
Majin Buu
SSJ2 Vegeta

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Tue May 25, 2004 8:15 am

Xyex wrote:I don't think training with the sword did a thing to Gohan's power. The sword itself was supposed to help him defeat Buu.

After the sword was broken, Gohan says that his power increased significantly during the time that he spent training with it. Goku acknowledges this, but he isn't completely certain that Gohan is strong enough to defeat Fat Buu. If SSJ2 Gohan was equal to SSJ2 Goku or weaker than him, Goku would have said something like "No, you absolutely cannot defeat Majin Buu with that level of power." Since Goku wasn't sure that he would lose, I assumed Gohan was substantially stronger than SSJ2 Goku, but not close enough to SSJ3 to guarantee a victory over Buu.

Xyex wrote: Vegetto
Super Buu3
Super Buu2
Mystic Gohan
Super Buu1.5
SSJ3 Gotenks
Super Buu
SSJ3 Goku
Kid Buu
Majin Buu
SSJ2 Vegeta

This looks about right to me.

Kestra-Kaito · Post by **Kestra-Kaito** » Tue May 25, 2004 11:26 am

Alias wrote:I second that! Yamucha, though... pathetic in the Buu saga, is still a great character (especially in the 10th Anniversary Special!). Poor Yamucha, nobody loves him... *sniffle* Not a single shrine to his name... (true!)

I found one shrine for the poor guy!

Then it shut down -_-;;;

Kestra-Kaito · Post by **Kestra-Kaito** » Tue May 25, 2004 11:40 am

Ben Plante wrote: I'll tell you why. Fear. Vegeta, ever since he was a child as seen in the Bardock special, was afraid of one thing. Not being the best. He wanted Freeza to send him on difficult missions. He so desperately wanted to prove himself.

I've never even thought of that as a possibility but it makes sense. It would explain why Vegeta spends most of his life on Earth trying to outdo Goku. I mean, crying in the Frieza saga doesn't really give off the impression of ultra-badass character who isn't afraid of anything.

Just out of interest, did the people alt.fan.dragonball agree with you?

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Tue May 25, 2004 12:05 pm

Why do we ALWAYS argue about Kid Boo and SSJ3 Goku? What happened there is CANON despite the fact that them being the strongest (after Vegetto, I mean) is a plot hole. The ONLY problem here is GOKU's strength, which is explained when he can't achieve full power. Note that even when fighting SSJ3 Goku, Kid Boo NEVER took the fight seriously and was always winning.

My list:
Vegetto
SSJ3 Goku (ONLY if he could gather ALL energy that he's used to being able to attain in the afterlife)
Kid Boo(+Southern Kaioshin) I'd accept arguments that this Boo is stronger than SSJ3 Goku
Kid Boo
Majin Boo(Skinny+Fat+Piccolo+Goten+Trunks+Gohan)
Majin Boo(Skinny+Fat+Piccolo+SSJ3 Gotenks)
Gohan
Majin Boo (Skinny+Fat+Piccolo+Goten+Trunks)
SSJ3 Gotenks
Majin Boo (Skinny+Fat)
Majin Boo (Fat->pre-skinny exile)
SSJ2 Majin Vegeta
Majin Boo (Skinny)
Majin Boo (Fat->post-skinny exile)

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Tue May 25, 2004 12:46 pm

Dayspring wrote:Why do we ALWAYS argue about Kid Boo and SSJ3 Goku? What happened there is CANON despite the fact that them being the strongest (after Vegetto, I mean) is a plot hole.

All dialogue has equal canonicity. The statements indicating that Super Buu was stronger than Kid Buu are just as valid as the single line of dialogue supporting the reverse. It basically comes down to a pick-and-choose situation: you can use the material in the manga to reach two, contradictory conclusions depending on what evidence you decide to invalidate.

If you believe that Super Buu was stronger than Kid Buu, you've arrived at a conclusion which remains logically-consistant with the entire saga. It only requires that a few characters were a little off in their "ki" sensing abilities. If you believe that the opposite is true, you've unravelled a huge portion of the Buu Saga and the whole thing turns into a tortured mess of plot errors.

So, yeah, while the real reason why the situation makes no sense is because of the enormous plot hole, the only logical in-universe explanation is that a couple of people were wrong and Kid Buu isn't that powerful after all.

Ben Plante · Post by **Ben Plante** » Tue May 25, 2004 1:47 pm

Just out of interest, did the people alt.fan.dragonball agree with you?

I don't even remember... that was a while ago. I think so.

Ryu · Post by **Ryu** » Tue May 25, 2004 3:29 pm

Why do I get the feeling that I'm about to be fed to the sharks? Well, here's what I think about the Buu thing.

I always thought the Buu saga was one big mess since Goku took back his hero role. Personally I thought Kid Buu was the strongest Buu mainly because the anime was faithful in respect on who's the strongest good/bad guy in the series. Saiyan saga- Goku/Vegeta, Freezer saga- Goku/Freezer, Cell saga- Gohan/Cell. Now the anime states twice (through Kai and Goku) Kid Buu to be the strongest and that good enough for me. Also I'm fairly certain I've seen on the ending credits on the episodes that the japanese author is Akira Toriyama.

And this interview extract just makes me wonder if Kid Buu is the strongest.

Daizenshuu extract

Q: And in the battle versus Majin Buu, Gokou got the last laugh, didn't he?

A: That's right. It's like saying "You've done well by yourself." Wanting to fight enemies one-on-one, no matter how strong they are, is Gokou's greatest wish, isn't it?

Q: Throughout all of the manga, that's always what Gokou wanted, isn't it. Thank you very much for taking the time to talk to me

This is how I see it. Here it is mention that Gokou got the "last laugh?" against Majin Buu. Now what is so special about Kid Buu when compared to the other form's of Buu? Now Akira Toryimam agreed that Gokou did get the last laugh and said, "wanting to fight the enemies one-on-one, no matter how strong they are, is Gokou's greatest wish." And in my opinion since he brought strength into the equation, saying "no matter how strong they are.." he is saying that the last laugh is that Kid Buu is stronger than the other forms of Buu. I would like to hear other people views on what you think he means.

Also here's a question, does the Daizenshuu (if anyone has it) say which is the strongest Buu?

With Goku being able to defeat Super Buu or not. I thought Goku was trying to get Vegeta to fuse with him so they could easily defeat Buu so the others wouldn't have a chance of getting hurt. Didn't Goku say after Vegeta wouldn't fuse with him (and after Goku did his Ki blast), "Where the exit so I beat this guy." This is according to what Curtis H. Hoffmann said in his summaries.

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Wed May 26, 2004 12:48 am

Ryu wrote:Personally I thought Kid Buu was the strongest Buu mainly because the anime was faithful in respect on who's the strongest good/bad guy in the series. Saiyan saga- Goku/Vegeta, Freezer saga- Goku/Freezer, Cell saga- Gohan/Cell. Now the anime states twice (through Kai and Goku) Kid Buu to be the strongest and that good enough for me.

It's also stated that Gohan is the strongest fighter at the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai. This is later proven incorrect. So yes, it's initially said that Kid Buu is the strongest form of Majin Buu. This is proven untrue when Goku is able to fight evenly with him, despite having no chance against any form of Super Buu.

Ryu wrote:This is how I see it. Here it is mention that Goku got the "last laugh?" against Majin Buu. Now what is so special about Kid Buu when compared to the other form's of Buu? Now Akira Toryimam agreed that Goku did get the last laugh and said, "wanting to fight the enemies one-on-one, no matter how strong they are, is Goku's greatest wish." And in my opinion since he brought strength into the equation, saying "no matter how strong they are.." he is saying that the last laugh is that Kid Buu is stronger than the other forms of Buu. I would like to hear other people views on what you think he means.

Obviously Goku doesn't always want to fight his enemies, "no matter how powerful they are". He specifically says that he doesn't want to fight Super Buu for that very reason. I think Toriyama is only implying that Kid Buu was a very challenging opponent.

Sidenote: The fact that Goku was unwilling to fight Super Buu is very interesting. He's always been eager to fight powerful opponents in the past, even if they're much stronger than him. So Super Buu must have been so strong that Goku would have been killed fairly quickly had he tried to fight him.

Ryu wrote:Also here's a question, does the Daizenshuu (if anyone has it) say which is the strongest Buu?

You're looking at this the wrong way. Dialogue and other written material are secondary to direct evidence. Goku does everything possible to avoid fighting Super Buu, but he isn't nearly as concerned about Kid Buu. He even crushes the Potara Earrings, which were absolutely necessary to fight Super Buu (+Gohan/Gotenks). There's really only two, in-story explanations for the inconsistancy:

(a): Goku's "ki" sensing ability sucks. He believed that he would be slaughtered if he fought Super Buu, even though SSJ3 is much, much stronger than every form of Super Buu, "Mystic" Gohan and Gotenks.

(b): Goku's "ki" sensing ability sucks. He believed that Kid Buu was the strongest form of Buu, even though all of the evidence indicates that he isn't.

Ryu wrote:With Goku being able to defeat Super Buu or not. I thought Goku was trying to get Vegeta to fuse with him so they could easily defeat Buu so the others wouldn't have a chance of getting hurt.

Goku said that he and Vegeta would be killed if they fought Super Buu without fusing. From memory, the dialogue went something like this:

(Vegeta and Goku free everyone from the pods inside Majin Buu.)

Goku: Buu's power level has decreased.

Vegeta: Let's go.

Goku: No, Buu is still stronger than us. We'll die if we leave Buu now.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Wed May 26, 2004 3:48 am

Dayspring: Alright, if Kid Buu is the strongest Buu... why? He's got nothing but his own power. Super Buu3 has Kid Buu's power, Fat Buu's power, Piccolo's power, Goten's power, Trunks's power, and Gohan's power. The defies even DBZ logic.

And then there's the fact that Kid Buu was created so that Buu would be weak enough for Goku to beat since the fans wanted him to be the hero again.

Ryu · Post by **Ryu** » Wed May 26, 2004 4:31 am

James R. Cadwell wrote:It's also stated that Gohan is the strongest fighter at the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai. This is later proven incorrect. So yes, it's initially said that Kid Buu is the strongest form of Majin Buu. This is proven untrue when Goku is able to fight evenly with him, despite having no chance against any form of Super Buu.

I know my memory isn't the best, but I can't recall where it was said Gohan was the strongest in the Budokai, could you tell me where? To my knowledge, the only quotes relevant to Gohan's strength was Vegeta saying he was a lot stronger against Cell, and Supreme Kai saying he may not be able to hold him.

James R. Cadwell wrote:Obviously Goku doesn't always want to fight his enemies, "no matter how powerful they are". He specifically says that he doesn't want to fight Super Buu for that very reason. I think Toriyama is only implying that Kid Buu was a very challenging opponent.

Sidenote: The fact that Goku was unwilling to fight Super Buu is very interesting. He's always been eager to fight powerful opponents in the past, even if they're much stronger than him. So Super Buu must have been so strong that Goku would have been killed fairly quickly had he tried to fight him.

I haven't got anything to say here except thanks for your input dude.

James R. Cadwell wrote:You're looking at this the wrong way. Dialogue and other written material are secondary to direct evidence. Goku does everything possible to avoid fighting Super Buu, but he isn't nearly as concerned about Kid Buu. He even crushes the Potara Earrings, which were absolutely necessary to fight Super Buu (+Gohan/Gotenks). There's really only two, in-story explanations for the inconsistancy:

(a): Goku's "ki" sensing ability sucks. He believed that he would be slaughtered if he fought Super Buu, even though SSJ3 is much, much stronger than every form of Super Buu, "Mystic" Gohan and Gotenks.

(b): Goku's "ki" sensing ability sucks. He believed that Kid Buu was the strongest form of Buu, even though all of the evidence indicates that he isn't.

I may be misunderstanding this, but are you saying if the Daizenshuu states Kid Buu to be the strongest, you would disagree with it? I thought the Daizenshuu was the bible of Dragon Ball. From what I've been told the Daizenshuu has input from Akira Toriyama and it distinguishes between the manga and anime.

Also when you said Goku crushes/refuses the Potara Earrings what do you think of the Kai's reaction? They were more scared than when Vegeta crushed the Potara inside of Buu. Plus by the look on Goku's face he was really considering fusion. I suppose it could be they were over reacting but why would Goku apologise for doing this at such a bad time? He said, "Well, he really is beyond our means... It'll be tough, but... I want to fight with my own power alone. Sorry to do this at such a bad time... But, he can't fuse with anyone else either..." He didn't know if he could beat him until after they fought. The whole situation on the Kai planet gives me the opinion that Buu became stronger than Super Buu.

James R. Cadwell wrote:Goku said that he and Vegeta would be killed if they fought Super Buu without fusing. From memory, the dialogue went something like this:

(Vegeta and Goku free everyone from the pods inside Majin Buu.)

Goku: Buu's power level has decreased.

Vegeta: Let's go.

Goku: No, Buu is still stronger than us. We'll die if we leave Buu now.

You know I not quite sure if Goku meant that or not. You see, don't you think it's strange that if he had meant it, he would of gone ssj 3 instead of ssj when Super Buu first appeared? Also why did he say "Where the exit so I beat this guy." Was he bluffing?

I'm curious, but what's your opinion of the Genki-Dama situation? Do you think it was a mistake on Toriyama part? Do you think Gohan didn't give all his energy like his father asked? Or do you believe like some people I've come across that there are two different types of energy in the body which are life-force/spirit and Ki energy.

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Wed May 26, 2004 5:45 am

Ryu wrote:I know my memory isn't the best, but I can't recall where it was said Gohan was the strongest in the Budokai, could you tell me where? To my knowledge, the only quotes relevant to Gohan's strength was Vegeta saying he was a lot stronger against Cell, and Supreme Kai saying he may not be able to hold him.

It's a dub quote, so it's probably not accurate. However; I can use a different example to make precisely the same argument. It's stated that Baata/Butter is the fastest warrior in the universe, but this is later proven untrue when Goku turns out to be even faster. The fact that something is stated in dialogue doesn't mean that it can't be invalidated by other evidence.

Ryu wrote:I may be misunderstanding this, but are you saying if the Daizenshuu states Kid Buu to be the strongest, you would disagree with it? I thought the Daizenshuu was the bible of Dragon Ball. From what I've been told the Daizenshuu has input from Akira Toriyama and it distinguishes between the manga and anime.

The Daizenshuu is a secondary source of information. I would personally only accept material from the Daizenshuu as long as it doesn't contradict what actually occurs in DB. For example, if it stated that Vegeta was really stronger than Kid Buu, it would be wrong since we see otherwise.

Ryu wrote:Also when you said Goku crushes/refuses the Potara Earrings what do you think of the Kai's reaction? They were more scared than when Vegeta crushed the Potara inside of Buu.

True. However; in the earlier instance, there was still the possibility that Gohan and Gotenks could be freed to fight Buu. Moreover, Goku had time to teach Vegeta the fusion dance if there was no other option. The situation was more dire on the Kaioshin planet, since nobody was left alive to continue the fight if Goku and Vegeta failed.

Ryu wrote:"Well, he really is beyond our means... It'll be tough, but... I want to fight with my own power alone. Sorry to do this at such a bad time... But, he can't fuse with anyone else either..." He didn't know if he could beat him until after they fought. The whole situation on the Kai planet gives me the opinion that Buu became stronger than Super Buu.

I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion based on the quote you provided.

"Well, he really is beyond our means... It'll be tough, but... I want to fight with my own power alone. Sorry to do this at such a bad time... But, he can't fuse with anyone else either..."

The implication here is that at least some of the fused forms of Buu were powerful enough to make a one-on-one fight impractical or impossible, while the pure form of Buu wasn't.

Ryu wrote:You know I not quite sure if Goku meant that or not. You see, don't you think it's strange that if he had meant it, he would of gone ssj 3 instead of ssj when Super Buu first appeared?

It's odd, yes, but I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Are you saying that the first stage of Super Saiya-jin is powerful enough to fight Super Buu? 'cause if that's the case, SSJ3 Gotenks should have killed him easily.

In any event, it's hard to gauge anything from the events which occured inside Buu's body, since everyone had their power scaled down.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Wed May 26, 2004 6:36 am

I just went to quote the list I made earlier of the characters strengths, and realized I goofed it up just a tad. What I had was:

Xyex wrote:Vegetto
Super Buu3
Super Buu2
Mystic Gohan
Super Buu1.5
SSJ3 Gotenks
Super Buu
SSJ3 Goku
Kid Buu
Majin Buu
SSJ2 Vegeta

But I switched Goku and Kid Buu. Yes, that's right, Kid Buu is IMO, stronger than SSJ3 Goku. I wouldn't say it's by a large ammount, but I do think Kid Buu is stronger. The only reason Goku won was the Spirit Bomb.

Now, about some of the other matters here:

Ryu wrote:
James R. Cadwell wrote:It's also stated that Gohan is the strongest fighter at the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai. This is later proven incorrect. So yes, it's initially said that Kid Buu is the strongest form of Majin Buu. This is proven untrue when Goku is able to fight evenly with him, despite having no chance against any form of Super Buu.
I know my memory isn't the best, but I can't recall where it was said Gohan was the strongest in the Budokai, could you tell me where? To my knowledge, the only quotes relevant to Gohan's strength was Vegeta saying he was a lot stronger against Cell, and Supreme Kai saying he may not be able to hold him.

Shin said several times that Gohan was the strongest one there. It then turns out that Goku is stronger, and possibly even Vegeta if he wasn't just being arrogant while Gohan fought Dabura.

Ryu wrote:Also when you said Goku crushes/refuses the Potara Earrings what do you think of the Kai's reaction? They were more scared than when Vegeta crushed the Potara inside of Buu. Plus by the look on Goku's face he was really considering fusion. I suppose it could be they were over reacting but why would Goku apologise for doing this at such a bad time? He said, "Well, he really is beyond our means... It'll be tough, but... I want to fight with my own power alone. Sorry to do this at such a bad time... But, he can't fuse with anyone else either..." He didn't know if he could beat him until after they fought. The whole situation on the Kai planet gives me the opinion that Buu became stronger than Super Buu.

I think Goku was infering that Kid Buu was stronger than Fat Buu had been. It's completely impossible for Kid Buu to be the strongest Buu. First, that would require SSJ3 Goku to be stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, Mystic Gohan, Super Buu3, and Vegetto. Secondly, Kid Buu = only his power. Super Buu3 = Piccolo, Goten, Trunks, Mystic Gohan, Fat Buu, and Kid Buu' s power levels. How could removing power make him stronger? Dai Kaioshin's weakening influence had already been over-ridden by the creation of Super Buu.

Ryu wrote:You know I not quite sure if Goku meant that or not. You see, don't you think it's strange that if he had meant it, he would of gone ssj 3 instead of ssj when Super Buu first appeared? Also why did he say "Where the exit so I beat this guy." Was he bluffing?

I'm curious, but what's your opinion of the Genki-Dama situation? Do you think it was a mistake on Toriyama part? Do you think Gohan didn't give all his energy like his father asked? Or do you believe like some people I've come across that there are two different types of energy in the body which are life-force/spirit and Ki energy.

SSJ3 wastes a crap load of energy. This is evident by Goku's shortened stay on Earth after his fight with Buu. He was trying to conserve energy for when he finally convinced Vegeta to fuse with him.

As for the Spirit Bomb, that thing could have killed Vegetto IMHO. Think about it like this:

Average Human PL = 5 Goku took as much energy as he could from the Earth. So that's what? About 4 from each person? Alright. So how many people? At least a billion I'd think. So that 4 x 1 billion people = a Spirit Bomb of over 4 bilion. That's not counting the power added by Gohan and the others who are much stronger than the average.

Ryu · Post by **Ryu** » Wed May 26, 2004 9:12 am

Xyex wrote:SSJ3 wastes a crap load of energy. This is evident by Goku's shortened stay on Earth after his fight with Buu. He was trying to conserve energy for when he finally convinced Vegeta to fuse with him.

Doesn't this give a another reason why the line where Goku said "will be killed" can't be considered as accurate? As you said Goku didn't want to use super saiyan 3 and so by any means he was trying to get Vegeta to fuse with him. What better way is there to get Vegeta to fuse with him as saying "we can't beat the enemy".

James R. Cadwell wrote:It's odd, yes, but I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Are you saying that the first stage of Super Saiya-jin is powerful enough to fight Super Buu? 'cause if that's the case, SSJ3 Gotenks should have killed him easily.

What I was trying to say is I think Goku was trying to get Vegeta to fuse with him by any means necessary but if he had meant what he said, he would have transformed to ssj 3 when Buu showed up. And providing this line "Where the exit so I beat this guy." is accurate, Goku pretty much says he can beat Super Buu.

Xyex wrote:As for the Spirit Bomb, that thing could have killed Vegetto IMHO. Think about it like this:

Average Human PL = 5 Goku took as much energy as he could from the Earth. So that's what? About 4 from each person? Alright. So how many people? At least a billion I'd think. So that 4 x 1 billion people = a Spirit Bomb of over 4 bilion. That's not counting the power added by Gohan and the others who are much stronger than the average.

Personally I disagree with Spirit Bomb being able to defeat Vegetto, but let me give you my opinion on how I see it.

Goku calls for everyone to give as much as they could. Gohan and the others were first to donate, but Goku said it wasn't enough to beat Buu. Further energy is collected and the Spirit Bomb is used against Kid Buu, but it wasn't powerful enough, I disagree with the whole pushing theory. With the whole pushing theory you might aswell be saying that a ssj Goku can out compete Kid Buu in strength.

James R. Cadwell wrote:It's a dub quote, so it's probably not accurate. However; I can use a different example to make precisely the same argument. It's stated that Baata/Butter is the fastest warrior in the universe, but this is later proven untrue when Goku turns out to be even faster. The fact that something is stated in dialogue doesn't mean that it can't be invalidated by other evidence.

Fair enough, I have no reason to argue with that.

James R. Cadwell wrote:The Daizenshuu is a secondary source of information. I would personally only accept material from the Daizenshuu as long as it doesn't contradict what actually occurs in DB. For example, if it stated that Vegeta was really stronger than Kid Buu, it would be wrong since we see otherwise.

Well I would agree with you if the Daizenshuu said Vegeta>Kid Buu, but I don't think it would ever say that. I always thought of the Daizenshuu as a encyclopaedia of dragonball, what it says goes.

Okay I admit now that I think Kid Buu isn't the strongest (but I do now think he's the third strongest

), I'm out of the debate.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Wed May 26, 2004 10:29 am

The daizenshuu states nothing about Boo's strengths. You know from direct evidence that his increases are cumulative, with the exception of the Dai Kaioshin which resulted in fat Boo. Then when he randomly reverts to Kid Boo instead of Skinny, Kaioshin says to Rou Kaioshin that Kid Boo is the original, most powerful form of Boo.

Dayspring: Alright, if Kid Buu is the strongest Buu... why? He's got nothing but his own power. Super Buu3 has Kid Buu's power, Fat Buu's power, Piccolo's power, Goten's power, Trunks's power, and Gohan's power. The defies even DBZ logic.

Only if you go by your theory that Super Boo was the original Boo, which we KNOW not to be true. Say Kid Boo has a PL of 1,000 and Super Boo of 200. Super Boo absorbs Piccolo of 28 and SSJ3 Gotenks of 220. He then absorbs Gohan of 400, for a smacking total of 848. The fact that Kid Boo only has his own power doesn't affect anything since he was stronger to begin with. That's why I say the form after absorbing the South Kaioshin is the strongest since it's basically the strongest form having been increased.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Wed May 26, 2004 10:44 am

Ryu wrote:Personally I disagree with Spirit Bomb being able to defeat Vegetto, but let me give you my opinion on how I see it.

Goku calls for everyone to give as much as they could. Gohan and the others were first to donate, but Goku said it wasn't enough to beat Buu. Further energy is collected and the Spirit Bomb is used against Kid Buu, but it wasn't powerful enough, I disagree with the whole pushing theory. With the whole pushing theory you might aswell be saying that a ssj Goku can out compete Kid Buu in strength.

No, no... Goku wasn't the only 'pushing' force. The Spirit Bomb itself was pushing as well, but Kid Buu was pushing back, and wining. All Goku did was add a little extra shove, enough to finally overcome Kid Buu. Almost the same concept as how Gohan's Kamehameha finally overtook Cell.

Dayspring wrote:Only if you go by your theory that Super Boo was the original Boo, which we KNOW not to be true. Say Kid Boo has a PL of 1,000 and Super Boo of 200. Super Boo absorbs Piccolo of 28 and SSJ3 Gotenks of 220. He then absorbs Gohan of 400, for a smacking total of 848. The fact that Kid Boo only has his own power doesn't affect anything since he was stronger to begin with. That's why I say the form after absorbing the South Kaioshin is the strongest since it's basically the strongest form having been increased.

I've never said Super Buu was the first Buu. Kid Buu is. Let me try this anoter way, with a PL thing like you did.

Kid Buu - 1,000
South Kaioshin - 300
Dai Kaioshin - 500
Piccolo - 50
SSJ3 Gotenks - 1,900
Goten - 15
Trunks - 20
Mystic Gohan - 2,500

Alright, now let's do the math. Kid Buu absorbs South Kaioshin and becomes Buff Buu - 1,300. Then Absorbs Dai to a reverse effect become Fat Buu - 800. Skinny Buu absorbs fat fixing the fusion and becoming Super Buu - 1,800. Super Buu abosrbs Piccolo and Gotenks and we have Super Buu2 - 3,750. Gotenks defuses and we have Super Buu 1.5 - 1,885. Then he absorbs Gohan and we have our Super Buu3 - 4,385.

Now. Everyone gets pulled out of Super Buu removing all the extra power. What are we left with? Kid Buu - 1,000. Right where we started.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Wed May 26, 2004 2:50 pm

Ryu wrote:[Well I would agree with you if the Daizenshuu said Vegeta>Kid Buu, but I don't think it would ever say that. I always thought of the Daizenshuu as a encyclopaedia of dragonball, what it says goes.

But the Daizenshuu are overly confusing in some situations, and flat out wrong in others. Sure, Toriyama had a hand in them, but I wouldn't be surprised if the man forgot what his wife looked like, so that doesn't make them completely accurate.

Post by **TripleRach** » Wed May 26, 2004 4:17 pm

Ryu wrote:He said, "Well, he really is beyond our means... It'll be tough, but... I want to fight with my own power alone. Sorry to do this at such a bad time... But, he can't fuse with anyone else either..."

I knew this looked familiar...

Kanzenshuu

Vegeta: Inferiority Complex

Re: Vegeta: Inferiority Complex

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