Some confusion on when everyone reached certain SS levels.
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Ben Plante
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PHILLIPS!
"Chrysanthemums will wither together with its leaves, lying beside the fiery eyes soaked with blood. Even then, your sublime status will never be shaken, even if only half of your limbs will remain. To increase the fascination within the drama, should the search for a new partner begin? If so, then head to the east. You will definitely meet the one who is waiting for you."
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Jerseymilk
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Ben Plante
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Alright, I won't guess anymore.
"Chrysanthemums will wither together with its leaves, lying beside the fiery eyes soaked with blood. Even then, your sublime status will never be shaken, even if only half of your limbs will remain. To increase the fascination within the drama, should the search for a new partner begin? If so, then head to the east. You will definitely meet the one who is waiting for you."
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Ben Plante
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::In Mike's voice::
Let's keep it on topic, guys.
Let's keep it on topic, guys.
"Chrysanthemums will wither together with its leaves, lying beside the fiery eyes soaked with blood. Even then, your sublime status will never be shaken, even if only half of your limbs will remain. To increase the fascination within the drama, should the search for a new partner begin? If so, then head to the east. You will definitely meet the one who is waiting for you."
Amy Phwaor!
I can see arguments both ways as to whether Vegeta was a Super Saiyan before or after Trunks was conceived, but it does make sense to me for it to be afterwards. Otherwise he'd have gone off to space, become a SSJ, returned to Earth, knocked up Bulma, and then sat around for over a year and a half waiting to show everyone. Makes much more sense for him to have knocked her up, gotten bored with changing nappies, and then buggered off into space to do his training (typical man, eh?)
I can see arguments both ways as to whether Vegeta was a Super Saiyan before or after Trunks was conceived, but it does make sense to me for it to be afterwards. Otherwise he'd have gone off to space, become a SSJ, returned to Earth, knocked up Bulma, and then sat around for over a year and a half waiting to show everyone. Makes much more sense for him to have knocked her up, gotten bored with changing nappies, and then buggered off into space to do his training (typical man, eh?)
Romana: "I don't think we should interfere."
Doctor: "Interfere? Of course we should interfere! Always do what you're best at, that's what I say."
[i]-Doctor Who: Nightmare Of Eden[/i]
Doctor: "Interfere? Of course we should interfere! Always do what you're best at, that's what I say."
[i]-Doctor Who: Nightmare Of Eden[/i]
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Ben Plante
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I just thought of something that tips the scales in the favor of him not being SS when Future Trunks was conceived, however, since I was wrong about hin not being SS when he was killed by No. 17 and No. 18.
In the opening scene, Bulma held Baby Trunks while they waiting on Goku's status, and Vegeta was there. Was he Super at that point? I know he had black hair there, but he could've just been powered down.
Also, if Goku was dead, he'd have nobody to surpass and thus get pissed off enough to go Super. Maybe it was Goku's death, and the idea that he wouldn't get a chance to best him that angered him enough. THUS, he was NOT SS when Future Trunks was born, so that gene wasn't carried through, THUS Future Trunks had a much harder time of it then Present Trunks.
Phew. Now I just have to figure out a way to coherently say Trunk was conceived when Vegeta was Super in the present to complete my Goten/Trunks theory. And... it appears to be quite difficult.
In the opening scene, Bulma held Baby Trunks while they waiting on Goku's status, and Vegeta was there. Was he Super at that point? I know he had black hair there, but he could've just been powered down.
Also, if Goku was dead, he'd have nobody to surpass and thus get pissed off enough to go Super. Maybe it was Goku's death, and the idea that he wouldn't get a chance to best him that angered him enough. THUS, he was NOT SS when Future Trunks was born, so that gene wasn't carried through, THUS Future Trunks had a much harder time of it then Present Trunks.
Phew. Now I just have to figure out a way to coherently say Trunk was conceived when Vegeta was Super in the present to complete my Goten/Trunks theory. And... it appears to be quite difficult.
"Chrysanthemums will wither together with its leaves, lying beside the fiery eyes soaked with blood. Even then, your sublime status will never be shaken, even if only half of your limbs will remain. To increase the fascination within the drama, should the search for a new partner begin? If so, then head to the east. You will definitely meet the one who is waiting for you."
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James R. Cadwell
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Vegeta also wouldn't have been able to even use Super Saiya-jin on Earth if he wanted his new ability to be a surprise. Everyone could sense Freeza and King Kold when they were still hundreds of thousands of kilometers from Earth, so I'd assume Super Saiya-jin Vegeta's ki would stand out like Godzilla in downtown Tokyo.PsyLiam wrote:I can see arguments both ways as to whether Vegeta was a Super Saiyan before or after Trunks was conceived, but it does make sense to me for it to be afterwards. Otherwise he'd have gone off to space, become a SSJ, returned to Earth, knocked up Bulma, and then sat around for over a year and a half waiting to show everyone. Makes much more sense for him to have knocked her up, gotten bored with changing nappies, and then buggered off into space to do his training (typical man, eh?)
You're assuming that it was more difficult for Future Trunks to become a Super Saiya-jin than it was for Chibi Trunks. In the manga, Future Trunks is a Super Saiya-jin the first time we see him (chronologically). He might have been a Super Saiya-jin since he was eight, just like Chibi Trunks.Ben Plante wrote:THUS, he was NOT SS when Future Trunks was born, so that gene wasn't carried through, THUS Future Trunks had a much harder time of it then Present Trunks.
I suppose that depends on whether you want to take the manga or anime as "what actually happened". I go for the anime, because:
1/ It's really, really good.
2/ I've never read the manga.
3/ If you go by the manga, then Trunks was a Super Saiyan for possibly 10 years without getting strong enough to defeat the "weaker than the regular timeline" artificial humans. What the hell was he doing in all that time?
4/ It really is very good.
1/ It's really, really good.
2/ I've never read the manga.
3/ If you go by the manga, then Trunks was a Super Saiyan for possibly 10 years without getting strong enough to defeat the "weaker than the regular timeline" artificial humans. What the hell was he doing in all that time?
4/ It really is very good.
Romana: "I don't think we should interfere."
Doctor: "Interfere? Of course we should interfere! Always do what you're best at, that's what I say."
[i]-Doctor Who: Nightmare Of Eden[/i]
Doctor: "Interfere? Of course we should interfere! Always do what you're best at, that's what I say."
[i]-Doctor Who: Nightmare Of Eden[/i]
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James R. Cadwell
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Well, I do like the anime better than the manga. But when there's a contradiction between the two, I defer to the higher canon. I assume that since Toriyama portrayed Trunks as a very young Super Saiya-jin in the manga, he may have actually been writing the character with "this guy has been a Super Saiya-jin for a long time" in mind.PsyLiam wrote:I suppose that depends on whether you want to take the manga or anime as "what actually happened". I go for the anime, because:
1/ It's really, really good.
2/ I've never read the manga.
3/ If you go by the manga, then Trunks was a Super Saiyan for possibly 10 years without getting strong enough to defeat the "weaker than the regular timeline" artificial humans. What the hell was he doing in all that time?
4/ It really is very good.
EDIT: About Trunks not being strong enough to defeat the Artificial Humans after so many years of training as a Super Saiya-jin: I figure #17 and #18 really were gazillions of times stronger than Freeza. When Trunks and Gohan first became Super Saiya-jin, they might have been a little stronger than Goku was on Namek. Say 20 million or so. The Artificial Humans could have had strength equivalent to 864 million for all we know. Trunks may have only reached a few hundred million by the time he fought Freeza.
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Ben Plante
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You guys can keep discussing, I'm out. I know I made the topic, but I feel like if I try to make sense of it any longer, I will have an aneurism. 
I'm just gonna fall back on the old stadby conclusion: The story does what Toriyama (And Toei sometimes) TELLS it to do, whether it makes sense or not.
I'm just gonna fall back on the old stadby conclusion: The story does what Toriyama (And Toei sometimes) TELLS it to do, whether it makes sense or not.
"Chrysanthemums will wither together with its leaves, lying beside the fiery eyes soaked with blood. Even then, your sublime status will never be shaken, even if only half of your limbs will remain. To increase the fascination within the drama, should the search for a new partner begin? If so, then head to the east. You will definitely meet the one who is waiting for you."