Some confusion on when everyone reached certain SS levels.

[Ben Plante]

This one's a little overdone too, but maybe together, we can come up with some coherent timeline. Not that I say Saiyan and not Saiya-jin, but I pronounce it 'Cyan', as once said by Steve, AKA Daimao.

And we're ignoring Broli for the sake of simplicity.

Here's what I know, or assume. Let's start with the Future Timeline.

-Future Gohan goes SS1 sometime shortly after No. 17 and 18 start wreaking havoc. It's through his anger at the loss of his comrades that he is able to reach the 'breaking point' as I'm calling it.

-Future Trunks goes SS1 when he discovers Gohan's corpse (Going by the TV special). Combined with Gohan's intense training and having Vegeta's blood, the anger at seeing his sensei dead caused him to reach his Breaking Point. Next, he reached USS when he trained in the ROSAT. I believe this was as powerful an SS as Future Trunks got.

-Son Goku, of course, reached his Breaking Point when Kuririn was killed at the hands of Freeza. I BELIEVE he went USS in the ROSAT, but aware of the speed decrease, never used it. When did Goku go SS2 and SS3? Obviously both happened in the 7 years he spent training in the afterlife, but does anyone care to estimate how long it took to reach both? Finally, he then went SS4 when Elder Kaioshin helped him get his tail back, freaked out into the Golden Ozaru, and then was calmed down and became true SS4 thanks to swee little Pan.

-Vegeta, as we know, went SS when he believed he could not go SS. Oh, the irony, that the anger of being a failure was what made him a success. He also reached USS in the ROSAT. Now, this is where it gets complex. When did Vegeta go SS2? When he became Majin Vegeta? Was that the power up? Or did he do it in those 7 years, and if so, anyone care to speculate at what point? Then his SS4 trandformation in GT... can someone fill me on that, I haven't seen that arc yet.

Gohan. Reached SS in the ROSAT, his Breaking Point being his anger at himself for being such a chicken so many times, unable to save people. Then, he had a SECOND breaking point when No. 16's death monologue drove him bat shit nuts and made him the first SS2. It would seem, after Cell died, he stopped training, and that was the end of his reign.

Goten and Trunks. Well, that's so vague. I'm not even going to attempt to speculate that. You all do it.

...

That's it.

Hey, how come Pan never went SS? She seemed powerful enough!

[James R. Cadwell]

-Future Trunks goes SS1 when he discovers Gohan's corpse (Going by the TV special). Combined with Gohan's intense training and having Vegeta's blood, the anger at seeing his sensei dead caused him to reach his Breaking Point. Next, he reached USS when he trained in the ROSAT. I believe this was as powerful an SS as Future Trunks got.

In the manga, Trunks is already a Super Saiya-jin when Gohan loses his arm. He may have first become one at the same age that Chibi Trunks did.

When did Goku go SS2 and SS3? Obviously both happened in the 7 years he spent training in the afterlife, but does anyone care to estimate how long it took to reach both?

Goku was very comfortable with Super Saiya-jin 2, so I think it's safe to assume that he had been using the transformation for several years. Goku wasn't too experienced with Super Saiya-jin 3, so he either didn't try it very often or had only recently discovered it.

When did Vegeta go SS2? When he became Majin Vegeta? Was that the power up? Or did he do it in those 7 years, and if so, anyone care to speculate at what point?

Vegeta felt he was stronger than Gohan and Dabura. Dabura was about as strong as Perfect Cell, and Gohan was only a little stronger than that. Vegeta wouldn't necessarily need to be Super Saiya-jin 2 in order to be more powerful than both of them -- he'd just need to be stronger than Super Saiya-jin Goku was during the Cell Games.

[Ben Plante]

In the manga, Trunks is already a Super Saiya-jin when Gohan loses his arm. He may have first become one at the same age that Chibi Trunks did.

I know, I remember hearing that Trunks goes SS BEFORE Gohan dies in the Manga story (I hope American SJ publishes that eventually).

At what point in that manga story did it happen though? Was there a Breaking Point like all the other instances, or did he just attain the level of power needed?

Edit: Thanks for the analyzations, they make a lot of sense. I'm less confused now.

[Alias]

At what point in that manga story did it happen though? Was there a Breaking Point like all the other instances, or did he just attain the level of power needed?

It was only a chapter long, so it never told how he achieved it. Toriyama, unfortunately, had the habit of not giving the backgrounds of characters/events, leaving the fans to endlessly speculate. Since SSJ needs a breaking point in order to achieve it (Goten and Trunks don't count...), I assume that Gohan found some way to bring forth the anger in Trunks in the same way he tried to in the TV special.

[Ben Plante]

Thanks Alias. At what point in the Manga history does that chapter happen? I wanna know so I can either squeal with glee when it appears in a future SJ , or yell in anger when it's skipped in a future SJ.

Edit: Or I could just look at Julian's Manga reference text doc on the site.

[James R. Cadwell]

It was only a chapter long, so it never told how he achieved it. Toriyama, unfortunately, had the habit of not giving the backgrounds of characters/events, leaving the fans to endlessly speculate. Since SSJ needs a breaking point in order to achieve it (Goten and Trunks don't count...), I assume that Gohan found some way to bring forth the anger in Trunks in the same way he tried to in the TV special.

Or Future Trunks could just "kapow" and turn Super Saiya-jin like Chibi Trunks. It makes sense, considering they're basically the same person.

[Alias]

It wasn't explained exactly how Chibi Trunks achieved SSJ (from what I recall). As far as we know, Chibi Trunks may have gotten angry at some point while training with Goten and exploded. Though what he'd have to be angry about, I have no idea...

[PsyLiam]

Vegeta almost certainly only attained SSJ2 after become Majin. When he fights Boo after dying, when he no longer has the Majin Power-up, he only becomes Super Saiyan 1 (he never has any lightning around him).

There's another couple you might want to add: Gotenks initially can only turn Super Saiyan, but after training in the Room of Time and Spirit (I'm not sure for how long...a couple of months, maybe?) he managed to attain Super Saiyan stage 3. He never seems to reach stage 2.

Vegeto, meanwhile, goes straight to stage 2. The first time he transforms, he has the lightning surrounding him that denotes that stage.

As to Chibi Trunks: Their births would have been different. Future Chibi Trunks would have been conceived at a time where Vegeta was (presumably) a lot less strong than he was in the main timeline (although that can be argued).

Also, we don't know that there wasn't an ingnition factor for both Goten and Chibi Trunks. As someone said, maybe they got annoyed during training. Maybe Chi Chi fell over, and Goten thought she was really hurt. Maybe they missed Teletubbies.

[Dayspring]

My thoughts:

When did Goku go SS2 and SS3? Obviously both happened in the 7 years he spent training in the afterlife, but does anyone care to estimate how long it took to reach both?

SSJ2: Probably within a year to 2 years after his death, as a result of wanting to catch up to Gohan.
SSJ3: I think a year before the boo saga for some reason. I don't know why that sticks out for me but it does. He then spent that last year "perfecting" it.

When did Vegeta go SS2? When he became Majin Vegeta? Was that the power up? Or did he do it in those 7 years, and if so, anyone care to speculate at what point?

Add a few months to a year after Goku went SSJ2 (because of his taking a "break from fighting" after the cell saga). I personally feel that Majin was a powerup just to make him equal Goku, not make him attain SSJ2. It doesn't make sense. Majin controls the evil in you, not make you angry (which is what makes a person go up SSJ levels).

[PsyLiam]

So then why doesn't he turn Super Saiyan 2 at any point before or after?

[Dayspring]

No need to before (his opponent was Buibui or whatever his name is), arguably he does after.

[PsyLiam]

Arguably when? He never gets any lightning on him when he first turns up to fight Buu (when Goku is trying to convince him to fuse), and he doesn't later on during that brief period when Goku is knocked out by Kid Buu.

[Dayspring]

That's anime only. Manga has Goku never get KOed, and Vegeta does have lightning around when he FIRST powers up against Boo. For the rest of the fight his hair is still SSJ2 style. Personally I figured it was either still SSJ2 (with AT making a drawing mistake) or easier for Vegeta to focus his energies in SSJ1 since going levels beyond SSJ1 always consume shitloads of energy (reason why Goku NEVER wants to go SSJ3 afterall).

Look I'm not going to debate this. Also, if you accept him as being capable of going SSJ2 once he first goes Majin, why not later on in the story?

[PsyLiam]

Because I do think that Majin was a powerup to enable him to reach Super Saiyan 2, and he loses that ability when no longer Majin.

As to the hair style...that's a tricky thing to base it on, especially with regards to Vegeta. The style of drawing Super Saiyan hair (even stage 1) changed completely over the course of the show.

[Ben Plante]

I don't mean to open up a new can of worms, but I do recall a non- Majin Vegeta scene at one point where he had the electricity. If SS2 was because of the Majin power-up, is it really a stretch to think he kept that power-up after he died, and just lost the evil Majin influence? He died as a SS2, so in the afterlife, he would logically be an SS2. When he is revived (His halo vanishes) there's no sign of a downgrade in power, so perhaps, if he was SS2 in the afterlife, he stayed that way when revived. Obviously afterlife training carries over to revival, as demonstrated by... well, Goku, Yamucha, Tenshinhan, Chaozu, Piccolo, Goku again...

[PsyLiam]

Granted, the electricity is a sign, but they have made mistakes over that before (Future Gohan having it, for one).

I suppose it depends on how you view the Majin power-up. If it was a permenant thing (like the Namek Elder's "untapping of potential"), then there was no need for Vegeta to stay Majin after he received the power-up. If it was temporary, then he could very well have lost it when he died, and so no longer had the amount of power necessary to turn Super Saiyan 2. Or maybe he just wasn't mad enough.

Did Vegeta keep his body in the afterlife? I'm sort of hazy with that point in the series, due to missing a few episodes.

[B-kun]

Eh, I don't see wy he didn't keep his body. Don't warriors who have had impacts on the universe keep their bodies in the afterlife?

As for if Vegeta kept his Majin power-up.. Did Babidi die before or after Vegeta sacrified himself? I just remembered Budoukai 2, where, after Buu kills Babidi, Cell, Freeza, and Vegeta lose their power-ups and C and F forget they even fought Goku a minute ago.

[PsyLiam]

I thought only good guys who'd had an impact on the universe got to keep their bodies.

[B-kun]

I thought only good guys who'd had an impact on the universe got to keep their bodies.

Freeza, Cell, Gero, Myuu, Ginyu Tokusentai. Enough said.

[PsyLiam]

Filler, filler, filler, GT, filler. Enough said. Nyah.