Who has done the most damage to Dragonball?

DBW · Post by **DBW** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:39 pm

Synapse wrote:Besides, I understand the hero of the universe dying in the end is a powerful idea, but the way the Dragon Ball series evolved from Goku being an innocent little boy with kick-ass misadventures to a grown man in more serious undertakings, I really wouldn't want this guy's last words to be "Chikusyo!!!!!!!!!"

Well, again, the ending of the Freeza arc wouldn't be the same as we know it today. When Goku opted to stay on Namek to ensure that Freeza was disabled/killed, we can pretty much assume that it was a self-sacrifice for the greater good. It really doesn't make sense that he's running around in a panic at the end looking for a spaceship, since he knew he was going to die when he made the decision to stay. I'd image the ending would be much more dignified, maybe with Goku giving a speech to his son, rather than just screaming profanities.

Speaking of which, why did Toriyama end the manga after DBZ? I mean, didn't he consider that the reader was wondering if Goku would ever see his family again and what would happen to Uub and their adventures?

He left the manga ending open so that Toei could easily create GT. He did go back recently and revise the ending to give it a bit more closure, but I'll agree that it's not very satisfying. In this regard I'd say that Toei hurt DragonBall the most, by not giving Toriyama the chance to just end the damn thing.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:41 pm

Synapse wrote:That would be like making a buddy cop comedy movie where the two guys are having hilarious mishaps and all of a sudden the loveable one gets AIDS and dies right after the biggest drug bust of his life and the movie ends. It's just not gonna cut it.

Except it stopped being a comedy with King Piccolo.

Synapse · Post by **Synapse** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 12:03 am

^Really? I actually have yet to see that. I only got up to the episode where Kurinin died.

DBW wrote:Well, again, the ending of the Freeza arc wouldn't be the same as we know it today. When Goku opted to stay on Namek to ensure that Freeza was disabled/killed, we can pretty much assume that it was a self-sacrifice for the greater good. It really doesn't make sense that he's running around in a panic at the end looking for a spaceship, since he knew he was going to die when he made the decision to stay. I'd image the ending would be much more dignified, maybe with Goku giving a speech to his son, rather than just screaming profanities.

Oh, good point. That would indeed be better. I've just always preferred that the hero live, unless it's one of those badass-turned-hero guys who knew their time was coming.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:38 am

Synapse wrote:Except no matter what the ending, Goku's always a complete douche to his wife.

She knew what she was getting into when she married him. Besides the fact that he agreed to marriage when he didn't even know what it was, then having found out, *still* did his "duty" and made good on the promise, I'd be inclined to disagree. I don't know many people that would do that. Plus you seem to forget that at the beginning of Z, they've been living together quietly for a good 5 years. Is it really his fault that people are trying to kill him or take over the world all the time? What do you seriously want him to do? Just let them?

gohanku · Post by **gohanku** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 8:51 am

There is a line of blame, Toei->Funimation->Fans.

Toei was being a bitch to Funimation, not giving them all the good stuff and the rights to use the music and lets not forget GT, Toei's damages. Funimation now having nothing to use, create their own crappy stuff, changing scripts and all, making it all seem wrong, Funi's fault. And now the fans, watching the Funi dub, they get all crazy and starts making crazy theory. OMG!!!111 KID BUU IS 1337!!!!1111 And the ability to eat shit up, helps Funimation to think that they were making good progress with the series making more crap and then making the fans eat them up and the cycle continues... So the winner of the blam game should be the Fans.

Synapse · Post by **Synapse** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 1:02 pm

Jerseymilk wrote:She knew what she was getting into when she married him. Besides the fact that he agreed to marriage when he didn't even know what it was, then having found out, *still* did his "duty" and made good on the promise, I'd be inclined to disagree. I don't know many people that would do that. Plus you seem to forget that at the beginning of Z, they've been living together quietly for a good 5 years. Is it really his fault that people are trying to kill him or take over the world all the time? What do you seriously want him to do? Just let them?

Oh no, of course he's inclined to save the world. He he sure as hell could say goodbye to her a little more lovingly. In fact, he can be just nicer to Chi Chi in general, even if he didn't officially agree to marry her.

Tsukento · Post by **Tsukento** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:15 am

gohanku wrote:There is a line of blame, Toei->Funimation->Fans.

Toei was being a bitch to Funimation, not giving them all the good stuff and the rights to use the music and lets not forget GT, Toei's damages. Funimation now having nothing to use, create their own crappy stuff, changing scripts and all, making it all seem wrong, Funi's fault. And now the fans, watching the Funi dub, they get all crazy and starts making crazy theory. OMG!!!111 KID BUU IS 1337!!!!1111 And the ability to eat shit up, helps Funimation to think that they were making good progress with the series making more crap and then making the fans eat them up and the cycle continues... So the winner of the blam game should be the Fans.

Actually, FUNi is guilty of being just plain cheap. But also mainly because they started out very small-time when the split with Saban and Ocean Group occured. FUNi's admitted that they didn't want to have to pay for royalties to use the original music and felt it'd be more cost effective and "hipper" to use their own music.

To this day, they STILL won't pay for royalties of certain tunes. Namely lyrical ones. How the hell can Europe get Hironobu Kageyama's openings for the Budokai games and we end up with instrumental versions and a lack of CHA-LA HEAD-CHA-LA in the recent remasters DVDs and in Super Dragon Ball Z and Sparking! Neo, as well as no We Gotta Power in Sparking? They got the BGM for the remasters, yet they couldn't get the remade music for the Sparking! games? They weren't exactly poor at that point.

Taku128 · Post by **Taku128** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:27 am

Tsukento wrote:
gohanku wrote:There is a line of blame, Toei->Funimation->Fans.

Toei was being a bitch to Funimation, not giving them all the good stuff and the rights to use the music and lets not forget GT, Toei's damages. Funimation now having nothing to use, create their own crappy stuff, changing scripts and all, making it all seem wrong, Funi's fault. And now the fans, watching the Funi dub, they get all crazy and starts making crazy theory. OMG!!!111 KID BUU IS 1337!!!!1111 And the ability to eat shit up, helps Funimation to think that they were making good progress with the series making more crap and then making the fans eat them up and the cycle continues... So the winner of the blam game should be the Fans.
To this day, they STILL won't pay for royalties of certain tunes. Namely lyrical ones. How the hell can Europe get Hironobu Kageyama's openings for the Budokai games and we end up with instrumental versions and a lack of CHA-LA HEAD-CHA-LA in the recent remasters DVDs and in Super Dragon Ball Z and Sparking! Neo, as well as no We Gotta Power in Sparking? They got the BGM for the remasters, yet they couldn't get the remade music for the Sparking! games? They weren't exactly poor at that point.

I think that's more because the main audience, dubbies, wouldn't be familliar at the time with the Japanese BGM, so there was no point in shelling out more money for it. As for the removal of lyrics in the songs for the Budokai 2 and 3 openings, I think that was because of the lack of Japanese lyrics in the dub for Z, hell, outside of Rock the Dragon there wasn't even any English lyrics, so dub fans wouldn't miss them. And don't forget that in Budokai 3 you can unlock the Japanese version of the Budokai 2 opening, complete with Japanese lyrics. Now that with the season box sets the English dub can be heard with the Japanese music, who knows? Mabey if there's a Sparking 3 we'll finally get the Japanese music.

Tsukento · Post by **Tsukento** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 5:12 am

Regardless, it makes no sense to give Europe the openings with lyrics for the Budokai games, give the US instrumental versions yet have an unlockable with lyrics.

Europe was far from having any kind of Japanese lyrics, so it made no sense to give it to them either.

Point is that it's been what? 12 years? FUNi still can't do things right with the property.

Mr.Piccolo · Post by **Mr.Piccolo** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 11:13 am

Magneto.
-Rick

Black Mist · Post by **Black Mist** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 11:14 am

Mr.Piccolo wrote:Magneto.
-Rick

Yes yes dear lord yes!

mAcChaos · Post by **mAcChaos** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:22 pm

DBW wrote:Well, again, the ending of the Freeza arc wouldn't be the same as we know it today. When Goku opted to stay on Namek to ensure that Freeza was disabled/killed, we can pretty much assume that it was a self-sacrifice for the greater good. It really doesn't make sense that he's running around in a panic at the end looking for a spaceship, since he knew he was going to die when he made the decision to stay. I'd image the ending would be much more dignified, maybe with Goku giving a speech to his son, rather than just screaming profanities.

I always thought he intended to survive, but was too consumed by his pride and Saiyan bloodlust at that point, like Gohan against Cell, so he would have ended up dying on Namek as well as the result of hubris, rather than leaving earlier as King Kai warned him to. Remember when Goku was asked why he was letting Freeza power up to 100%? He was boasting about how he was going to fight the most powerful being in the universe; he was talking like he was Vegeta.

Soluzar · Post by **Soluzar** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 5:04 pm

Synapse wrote:
Rocketman wrote:Except it stopped being a comedy with King Piccolo.
Really? I actually have yet to see that. I only got up to the episode where Kurinin died.

Really. It pretty much changed in tone from that point onwards. I won't say that it stopped being a comedy, because there are still some funny parts even in Dragon Ball Z, but it stopped being just a 'gag manga' at that point. I don't notice any significant change in tone between the end of Dragon Ball and the beginning of Dragon Ball Z. The change had already taken place by the middle of the King Piccolo saga, as Rocketman stated.

Synapse wrote:Oh no, of course he's inclined to save the world. He he sure as hell could say goodbye to her a little more lovingly. In fact, he can be just nicer to Chi Chi in general, even if he didn't officially agree to marry her.

I'm not even sure that Goku knows what love is, or what it means. I certainly don't think he really understands what it means to be married. He seems to treat Chi-Chi more like a mother than like a wife. It's a mystery that Gohan and Goten were even born, because I don't think there's much evidence to suggest that Goku understands why Chi-Chi should be treated differently than his other friends.

Tsukento · Post by **Tsukento** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:23 pm

Goku does know what love is. Just remember that he grew up differently from everyone else, so he expresses it much differently. Goku isn't the kind to be effectionate in the manner we're all familiar with. He just does it in his own way.

Maphisto86 · Post by **Maphisto86** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:04 pm

Tsukento wrote:Regardless, it makes no sense to give Europe the openings with lyrics for the Budokai games, give the US instrumental versions yet have an unlockable with lyrics.

Europe was far from having any kind of Japanese lyrics, so it made no sense to give it to them either.

Point is that it's been what? 12 years? FUNi still can't do things right with the property.

I think it's because FUNimation still markets Dragonball/Z/GT for the mainstream child audience when really the hype has for the most part passed and Dragonball merchandise is now a niche' market (namely... us!).

As for "damaging" Dragonball? I think that is nonsense. It was already well established before it was dubbed in North America. However I think both FUNimation's mismanagement of the franchise and misconceptions on the part of a fraction of the fanbase is to blame for Dragonball's decline in the eyes of mainstream western manga/anime fans. Beside's as we have all noticed it is an old series now.

Soluzar · Post by **Soluzar** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:27 am

Tsukento wrote:Goku does know what love is. Just remember that he grew up differently from everyone else, so he expresses it much differently. Goku isn't the kind to be effectionate in the manner we're all familiar with. He just does it in his own way.

When I say "love" I mean romantic love, of course. Eros if ya want a word that's not ambiguous. I'm sure he comprehends the other kinds of love.

Kanzenshuu

Who has done the most damage to Dragonball?

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