Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ekrolo2]

Well Toyotaro clearly doesn't care about Toriyama's statements like Base Goku being able to access SSG power. So in the manga, Base Goku = BoG Base Goku or slightly stronger, and he can access SSG for godly power and SSB is above that.

At least it's simpler, but it contradicts Toriyama's statements.

If anything, Super Manga Goku has more in common with the TV version than the movies. Nothing is said about Goku's base or SSJ power being on any comparable level to his God Form in Manga BoG. We know his Base form got an upgrade as he can take on Freeza in Manga F which is stronger than Gohan & Piccolo still but there's nothing that suggests he's anywhere near as strong as his God form in base or SSJ.

As for the contradiction, I'll complain about that when Toriyama starts being consistent himself before I call someone else on not being consistent.

[Chiki]

Well Toyotaro clearly doesn't care about Toriyama's statements like Base Goku being able to access SSG power. So in the manga, Base Goku = BoG Base Goku or slightly stronger, and he can access SSG for godly power and SSB is above that.

At least it's simpler, but it contradicts Toriyama's statements.

If anything, Super Manga Goku has more in common with the TV version than the movies. Nothing is said about Goku's base or SSJ power being on any comparable level to his God Form in Manga BoG. We know his Base form got an upgrade as he can take on Freeza in Manga F which is stronger than Gohan & Piccolo still but there's nothing that suggests he's anywhere near as strong as his God form in base or SSJ.

As for the contradiction, I'll complain about that when Toriyama starts being consistent himself before I call someone else on not being consistent.

Revival of F manga has nothing to do with Super's manga. They just contradict each other.

Copy Vegeta owning SS3 Gotenks like nothing in base, Goku putting up a good fight against a 100% serious Beerus in a Monaka costume, etc. are all proof that Base Goku has access to SSG power.

[ekrolo2]

Well Toyotaro clearly doesn't care about Toriyama's statements like Base Goku being able to access SSG power. So in the manga, Base Goku = BoG Base Goku or slightly stronger, and he can access SSG for godly power and SSB is above that.

At least it's simpler, but it contradicts Toriyama's statements.

If anything, Super Manga Goku has more in common with the TV version than the movies. Nothing is said about Goku's base or SSJ power being on any comparable level to his God Form in Manga BoG. We know his Base form got an upgrade as he can take on Freeza in Manga F which is stronger than Gohan & Piccolo still but there's nothing that suggests he's anywhere near as strong as his God form in base or SSJ.

As for the contradiction, I'll complain about that when Toriyama starts being consistent himself before I call someone else on not being consistent.

Revival of F manga has nothing to do with Super's manga. They just contradict each other.

Copy Vegeta owning SS3 Gotenks like nothing in base, Goku putting up a good fight against a 100% serious Beerus in a Monaka costume, etc. are all proof that Base Goku has access to SSG power.

How does Fs manga contradict anything though? And that might be proof for the anime but not the films or the manga. Hell, the mangas skipping the Copy Vegeta & Fake Monaka fight and just heading right to Trunks so neither of those have any bearings on Toyotaro's version of events.

Although, perhaps I worded it poorly. I never said Manga Goku doesn't have access to any God power at all, he clearly does since Red God appears behind him when he rushes Whis and has a base form stronger than SSJ Gohan and Piccolo. I just don't think Toyotaro's Goku has access to all of it like movie Goku clearly does. That's why I said the manga is closer to the show in this regard than to the movie.

[Bullza]

The Super Manga has its own version of Battle of Gods that's separate from the movie and TV show.

It's not that I'm saying the manga is wrong in particular, just that the anime is more in line with what Toriyama said in a specific interview and what he wrote in the latest movie. I won't take the F manga into consideration because it's technically not part of the Super manga and may or may not be part of the same continuity.

All we really know is that the Resurrection F story did happen in the manga continuity, it was skipped over and the reader would be reading the manga in mind that what happened in the Resurrection F movie is what was skipped over because nobody would be assuming that it was radically different. So if the events of the movie played out the same as they did in the manga then this latest chapter does not fit with the movie because Goku is supposed to be as strong as Super Saiyan God in base whereas in the manga Super Saiyan God is even more powerful than Super Saiyan (which also contradicts the previous movie).

The anime version of the Champa arc fits better with the movie or simply with what Toriyama wrote and said except for arguably a couple things.

And honestly, Toriyama contradicted himself in recent interviews. First blue was a weak color then he went with it, first he said Goku and Vegeta wouldn't use anything but Base and SSJ1 then he goes and makes a new form,... So really, the man barely has a clue what he wants what to do and how it works anymore.

That's true but it's not really the same thing. He might have said it looked weaker but he might still think that even though he went with it anyway, it's true it really does look weaker and this

"Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more."

Is still true because he hasn't become a Super Saiyan 2 or 3 since. He didn't say that they couldn't get stronger by obtaining a new form.

The Resurrection F movie did not contradict what he said in that interview because he didn't turn into a Super Saiyan God in it and he had apparently made that power his own which was why he could fight Frieza.

[ekrolo2]

The Super Manga has its own version of Battle of Gods that's separate from the movie and TV show.

It's not that I'm saying the manga is wrong in particular, just that the anime is more in line with what Toriyama said in a specific interview and what he wrote in the latest movie. I won't take the F manga into consideration because it's technically not part of the Super manga and may or may not be part of the same continuity.

All we really know is that the Resurrection F story did happen in the manga continuity, it was skipped over and the reader would be reading the manga in mind that what happened in the Resurrection F movie is what was skipped over because nobody would be assuming that it was radically different. So if the events of the movie played out the same as they did in the manga then this latest chapter does not fit with the movie because Goku is supposed to be as strong as Super Saiyan God in base whereas in the manga Super Saiyan God is even more powerful than Super Saiyan (which also contradicts the previous movie).

The anime version of the Champa arc fits better with the movie or simply with what Toriyama wrote and said except for arguably a couple things.

And honestly, Toriyama contradicted himself in recent interviews. First blue was a weak color then he went with it, first he said Goku and Vegeta wouldn't use anything but Base and SSJ1 then he goes and makes a new form,... So really, the man barely has a clue what he wants what to do and how it works anymore.

That's true but it's not really the same thing. He might have said it looked weaker but he might still think that even though he went with it anyway, it's true it really does look weaker and this

"Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more."

Is still true because he hasn't become a Super Saiyan 2 or 3 since. He didn't say that they couldn't get stronger by obtaining a new form.

The Resurrection F movie did not contradict what he said in that interview because he didn't turn into a Super Saiyan God in it and he had apparently made that power his own which was why he could fight Frieza.

It might be a mistake a casual reader might make but I doubt anyone who follows things more closely wouldn't just assume Toyotaro's version of F and Super aren't compatible with one another. After all, if Toyotaro really wanted to take another stab at F I think they would've let him do it but he didn't.

As for the interview thing, he clearly stuck with the "blue looks weaker" angle if white seemed like a more appropriate color for a new state to him until seemingly far into production. Him creating a new state also seems contradictory if he wanted to emphasize that mastery of REGULAR Super Saiyan and Base is better than using variations of SSJ. Even new variations which Blue is. It might be fine for some but the very fact a new variation of SSJ exists when base and SSJ1 are purportedly the best option for improving yourself gets introduced feels like a contradiction to me. One that only gets worse when an old form is being retconned so the new one can look more special by comparison. The old form (SSJ1) that was supposedly mastered and fine before.

[LowRyder2005]

Well Toyotaro clearly doesn't care about Toriyama's statements like Base Goku being able to access SSG power. So in the manga, Base Goku = BoG Base Goku or slightly stronger, and he can access SSG for godly power and SSB is above that.

At least it's simpler, but it contradicts Toriyama's statements.

Well... not really, if anything it's the contrary. Super's manga is directly supervised by Toriyama, while he only takes some undefined part in the production of the anime (given the controversy behind ep. 5 and how he disliked the final animation, it looks like he may be more of a credited original writer/ occasional supervisor than someone who does constant quality checks).

Regarding the manga: Toriyama creates the plot, Toyotaro creates a storyboard which is then sent to Toriyama for corrections or modifcations, then Toyotaro starts drawing the final scenes. It wouldn't be a stretch to say that the manga has a theoretical "seal of approval" for each page, or, quite simply, that Toriyama is the de facto writer and Toyotaro is the artist.

Now... the latest chapter wraps up the whole Red vs. Blue and Red vs. Base debate extremely well. I don't know if they heard the power-junkies cries for help in there, but it cleared out a lot of things.

[HeroR]

Well Toyotaro clearly doesn't care about Toriyama's statements like Base Goku being able to access SSG power. So in the manga, Base Goku = BoG Base Goku or slightly stronger, and he can access SSG for godly power and SSB is above that.

At least it's simpler, but it contradicts Toriyama's statements.

Well... not really, if anything it's the contrary. Super's manga is directly supervised by Toriyama, while he only takes some undefined part in the production of the anime (given the controversy behind ep. 5 and how he disliked the final animation, it looks like he may be more of a credited original writer/ occasional supervisor than someone who does constant quality checks).

Regarding the manga: Toriyama creates the plot, Toyotaro creates a storyboard which is then sent to Toriyama for corrections or modifcations, then Toyotaro starts drawing the final scenes. It wouldn't be a stretch to say that the manga has a theoretical "seal of approval" for each page, or, quite simply, that Toriyama is the de facto writer and Toyotaro is the artist.

Now... the latest chapter wraps up the whole Red vs. Blue and Red vs. Base debate extremely well. I don't know if they heard the power-junkies cries for help in there, but it cleared out a lot of things.

Toriyama confirmed that he write the scripts, send it to Toei who breaks them down in episodes, and send him the final script for approval. He doesn't surpvise the animation since that isn't his thing, but he knows what the final script is and can make changes if he doesn't like something.

Overall, it seems he doesn't mind changes being made and seems to encourage them to be created. Which is why we can see difference in the anime and manga, where they're the same.

[Chiki]

Well Toyotaro clearly doesn't care about Toriyama's statements like Base Goku being able to access SSG power. So in the manga, Base Goku = BoG Base Goku or slightly stronger, and he can access SSG for godly power and SSB is above that.

At least it's simpler, but it contradicts Toriyama's statements.

Well... not really, if anything it's the contrary. Super's manga is directly supervised by Toriyama, while he only takes some undefined part in the production of the anime (given the controversy behind ep. 5 and how he disliked the final animation, it looks like he may be more of a credited original writer/ occasional supervisor than someone who does constant quality checks).

Regarding the manga: Toriyama creates the plot, Toyotaro creates a storyboard which is then sent to Toriyama for corrections or modifcations, then Toyotaro starts drawing the final scenes. It wouldn't be a stretch to say that the manga has a theoretical "seal of approval" for each page, or, quite simply, that Toriyama is the de facto writer and Toyotaro is the artist.

Now... the latest chapter wraps up the whole Red vs. Blue and Red vs. Base debate extremely well. I don't know if they heard the power-junkies cries for help in there, but it cleared out a lot of things.

Are you Toyotaro's assistant or something? How do you know all this?

All we know is that Toriyama writes an outline which he gives to Toei and Toyotaro, that's it. If Toriyama cared about consistency, I'm sure he wouldn't have like Toei use Kaioken or Toyotaro use SSG.

Red vs. Blue debate was already solved. Red vs. Base debate hasn't been solved AT ALL in the anime. It's obvious in the anime that Base = SSG. Manga Base Goku never fought against Beerus, and Base Goku has no godly feats in the manga. You can't compare the manga and the anime for power levels.

[Faisal Shourov]

There's inconsistency within 1 continuity, and now people are mixing the anime, manga and movie together

At this point it's best to speculate power level in Super. It doesn't matter anymore

[TheMikado]

There's inconsistency within 1 continuity, and now people are mixing the anime, manga and movie together

At this point it's best to speculate power level in Super. It doesn't matter anymore

I was gone for a week and come back and Supers story is totally F'ed and power levels are just everywhere. At this point I'm like whatever but glad SSJ is the preferred form and make a weakness for SSB so it's not the constantly overpowered mess it has been. Not what Toei and funimation do with it from there is another thing entirely.

[LowRyder2005]

All we know is that Toriyama writes an outline which he gives to Toei and Toyotaro, that's it. If Toriyama cared about consistency, I'm sure he wouldn't have like Toei use Kaioken or Toyotaro use SSG.

Not at all. The exact process was reported some months ago (I think in the Official Announcement thread, with some storyboards image present as well) and I'm fairly certain I'm not recalling anything wrong: Toriyama double-checks everything that Toyotaro resends him and then he gives him the greenlight to finalize. In the anime, however, everything is expanded upon by TOEI's team of scenario writers while fleshing out the single episode.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/production/su ... /#scenario

[Lord Beerus]

Praise the manga for making more sense than the anime.

I wouldn't go that far. Vegeta losing 90% of his power because he transformed into a SSJB for Cabba is absolute bullshit. The SSJB is damn-near impractical, at least in the manga version of Super. It makes especially less sense considering that prior to that Goku transformed into a SSJG prior to becoming a SSJB. Something doesn't add up. Goku should have absolutely maxed out his ki the second he transformed into a SSJB. So either God ki drains the shit out of your power or FPSSJ had suddenly become very flawed.

[dbzfan7]

Praise the manga for making more sense than the anime.

I wouldn't go that far. Vegeta losing 90% of his power because he transformed into a SSJB for Cabba is absolute bullshit. The SSJB is damn-near impractical, at in the the manga version of Super. It makes especially less sense considering that prior to that Goku transformed into a SSJG prior to becoming a SSJB. Something doesn't add up. Goku should have absolutely maxed out his ki the second he transformed into a SSJB. So either God ki drains the shit out of your power or FPSSJ had suddenly become very flawed.

It was through multiple uses. Not just from Cabba. It also makes load more sense then "I have a 10% chance of survival from Kaioken. Alright now that I did it, I'm gonna go 10x more intensity and somehow not die." And then Hit not being utter paste after a single blow of someone who is over 10x stronger than he is. Also with somehow being weaker than Beerus despite two SSJB's being enough to potentially beat him if they work together. The anime was far more of a mess.

[ekrolo2]

Praise the manga for making more sense than the anime.

I wouldn't go that far. Vegeta losing 90% of his power because he transformed into a SSJB for Cabba is absolute bullshit. The SSJB is damn-near impractical, at in the the manga version of Super. It makes especially less sense considering that prior to that Goku transformed into a SSJG prior to becoming a SSJB. Something doesn't add up. Goku should have absolutely maxed out his ki the second he transformed into a SSJB. So either God ki drains the shit out of your power or FPSSJ had suddenly become very flawed.

He doesn't lose 90% of his power because of that, he lost that much energy because Blue isn't designed to be flipped on and off at the drop of a hat. Its essentially what would happen if Goku tried to flip SSJ3 on and off and on again in the span of a few seconds apart from one another. The manga also never sets up Blue as another but Red God except stronger so its not inconsistent within its own continuity. I do think the drain is far too severe but then again, Red God vanished pretty quickly too so its not like there isn't a precedent for the God forms, at least for now, being flawed. I'll certainly take it over Blue being the bestest, superest, mostest perfect Super Saiyan form ever by virtue of retconning a Mastered SSJ form into being shit so Kaio-ken can come back.

[MaGyunia]

I always saw both the Super Saiya-jin God and the Super Saiya-jin Blue transformations as entirely different concepts when compared to any other SSJ stage in terms of how they're achieved, rather than a follow up to SSJ3. In terms of energy and stamina draining, I'd say that the level or degree to which Goku and/or Vegeta can use any of the forms depend on how well they master the stage, like any other SSJ stage or, in fact, Kaio-Ken.

It would be cool if Super Saiya-jin Blue was basically a completely mastered and (hence) slightly more powerful version of Super Saiya-jin God, which is what I initally theorized. However, it seems that even Super Saiya-jin Blue has drawbacks in terms of energy and stamina draining. The potential for new SSJ stages is limitless, though.

Kaio-ken was considered obsolete as soon as Goku first turned Super Saiya-jin on Namk, but apparently it does increase the user's power when they're in any SSJ stage by a certain degree. I personally liked the explanation they gave for the reason why Goku never tried it before (except against Paiku-han), and I accepted it, but the fact that the Kaio-ken technique does provide a power boost when combined with any SSJ stage does open a can of worms; imagine Goku completely masters the combo, he would be far above Vegeta, who never used Kaio-ken. There are things I liked about their bringing back Kaio-ken after so much time has passed (just as they're bringing back and using old stuff in almost episode), but I personally would prefer if Kaio-ken had no effect on a Saiya-jin after he turned Super Saiya-jin, as I had always theorized until recently.

Moreover, the Kaio-Ken technique works pretty much the same way most SSJ stages do, but the strain on the user's body is much greater. The effects might be slightly different too; while there's no emotional discharge like there is when turning SSJ, there are physical and mental temporary levels the user reaches when using Kaio-ken that he shouldn't achieve in any other way. That is, just like Kaiou-sama himself explained, it's supposed to be used only when necessary and to a limited degree, as it heavily twists the user's body and mind, providing both an immense power boost but also having a number of drawbacks.

[Lord Beerus]

It was through multiple uses. Not just from Cabba. It also makes load more sense then "I have a 10% chance of survival from Kaioken. Alright now that I did it, I'm gonna go 10x more intensity and somehow not die." And then Hit not being utter paste after a single blow of someone who is over 10x stronger than he is. Also with somehow being weaker than Beerus despite two SSJB's being enough to potentially beat him if they work together. The anime was far more of a mess.

He doesn't lose 90% of his power because of that, he lost that much energy because Blue isn't designed to be flipped on and off at the drop of a hat. Its essentially what would happen if Goku tried to flip SSJ3 on and off and on again in the span of a few seconds apart from one another. The manga also never sets up Blue as another but Red God except stronger so its not inconsistent within its own continuity. I do think the drain is far too severe but then again, Red God vanished pretty quickly too so its not like there isn't a precedent for the God forms, at least for now, being flawed. I'll certainly take it over Blue being the bestest, superest, mostest perfect Super Saiyan form ever by virtue of retconning a Mastered SSJ form into being shit so Kaio-ken can come back.

Actually, in Chapter 12, Vegeta transforms into SSJB twice. He powered down to his base form after he knocked out Cabba as SSJB. Although, I still fail to see how transforming twice would count as "multiple" times. Transforming into a SSJB for approximately 10-20 seconds obviously seems to waste about 10-20% of your power. And the remaining 80-70% that Vegeta wasted must have come from his somewhat prolonged "battle" with Hit. It just makes you wonder how in God's name Goku and Vegeta managed to get past Golden Freeza in the manga. Unless that battle lasted less than a minute, I can't imagine a scenario, with the drastic drawbacks that SSJB supposedly has in the manga, where Golden Freeza doesn't beat the shit out of Goku and Vegeta.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It was through multiple uses. Not just from Cabba. It also makes load more sense then "I have a 10% chance of survival from Kaioken. Alright now that I did it, I'm gonna go 10x more intensity and somehow not die." And then Hit not being utter paste after a single blow of someone who is over 10x stronger than he is. Also with somehow being weaker than Beerus despite two SSJB's being enough to potentially beat him if they work together. The anime was far more of a mess.

He doesn't lose 90% of his power because of that, he lost that much energy because Blue isn't designed to be flipped on and off at the drop of a hat. Its essentially what would happen if Goku tried to flip SSJ3 on and off and on again in the span of a few seconds apart from one another. The manga also never sets up Blue as another but Red God except stronger so its not inconsistent within its own continuity. I do think the drain is far too severe but then again, Red God vanished pretty quickly too so its not like there isn't a precedent for the God forms, at least for now, being flawed. I'll certainly take it over Blue being the bestest, superest, mostest perfect Super Saiyan form ever by virtue of retconning a Mastered SSJ form into being shit so Kaio-ken can come back.

Actually, in Chapter 12, Vegeta transforms into SSJB twice. He powered down to his base form after he knocked out Cabba as SSJB. Although, I still fail to see how transforming twice would count as "multiple" times. Transforming into a SSJB for approximately 10-20 seconds obviously seems to waste about 10-20% of your power. And the remaining 80-70% that Vegeta wasted must have come from his somewhat prolonged "battle" with Hit. It just makes you wonder how in God's name Goku and Vegeta managed to get past Golden Freeza in the manga. Unless that battle lasted less than a minute, I can't imagine a scenario, with the drastic drawbacks that SSJB supposedly has in the manga, where Golden Freeza doesn't beat the shit out of Goku and Vegeta.

Just because you don't like something doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense. SSB drains a lot of ki if you transform more than once, not by staying in that form for a while. Vegeta transformed twice, which drained 90% of his ki, because that's how the form works.

[Bullza]

From a power level perspective the anime seems to be more accurate to what was presented in the movies than what the manga is.

The anime is mostly inline with the movies but the manga just seems to be taking its own approach which is odd considering they're based on the same plot outline and they're very similiar for some fights but then very different for others.

It's unnecessarily awkward though, same characters, similiar fights and events and yet two completely different levels of power just because of that little inclusion of Super Saiyan God.

[Chiki]

All we know is that Toriyama writes an outline which he gives to Toei and Toyotaro, that's it. If Toriyama cared about consistency, I'm sure he wouldn't have like Toei use Kaioken or Toyotaro use SSG.

Not at all. The exact process was reported some months ago (I think in the Official Announcement thread, with some storyboards image present as well) and I'm fairly certain I'm not recalling anything wrong: Toriyama double-checks everything that Toyotaro resends him and then he gives him the greenlight to finalize. In the anime, however, everything is expanded upon by TOEI's team of scenario writers while fleshing out the single episode.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/production/su ... /#scenario

That link doesn't say anything about Toriyama's role.

Let's recap. You said "not really" when I said "it contradicts Toriyama's statements."

Even if you are right, the fact remains that Toriyama double-checked two different works which contradicted themselves and his past statements, which is incredibly sloppy.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

From a power level perspective the anime seems to be more accurate to what was presented in the movies than what the manga is.

The anime is mostly inline with the movies but the manga just seems to be taking its own approach which is odd considering they're based on the same plot outline and they're very similiar for some fights but then very different for others.

It's unnecessarily awkward though, same characters, similiar fights and events and yet two completely different levels of power just because of that little inclusion of Super Saiyan God.

How is the anime inline with the movies? Anime base Goku is 50 times weaker than SSG, while Movie Base Goku is at the same level as SSG. They are all doing their own thing.