Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheMikado]

All we know is that Toriyama writes an outline which he gives to Toei and Toyotaro, that's it. If Toriyama cared about consistency, I'm sure he wouldn't have like Toei use Kaioken or Toyotaro use SSG.

Not at all. The exact process was reported some months ago (I think in the Official Announcement thread, with some storyboards image present as well) and I'm fairly certain I'm not recalling anything wrong: Toriyama double-checks everything that Toyotaro resends him and then he gives him the greenlight to finalize. In the anime, however, everything is expanded upon by TOEI's team of scenario writers while fleshing out the single episode.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/production/su ... /#scenario

Why won't people accept that Toriyama doesn't care and the idea of "canon" is essentially dead.

That link doesn't say anything about Toriyama's role.

Let's recap. You said "not really" when I said "it contradicts Toriyama's statements."

Even if you are right, the fact remains that Toriyama double-checked two different works which contradicted themselves and his past statements, which is incredibly sloppy.

[HeroR]

It was through multiple uses. Not just from Cabba. It also makes load more sense then "I have a 10% chance of survival from Kaioken. Alright now that I did it, I'm gonna go 10x more intensity and somehow not die." And then Hit not being utter paste after a single blow of someone who is over 10x stronger than he is. Also with somehow being weaker than Beerus despite two SSJB's being enough to potentially beat him if they work together. The anime was far more of a mess.

He doesn't lose 90% of his power because of that, he lost that much energy because Blue isn't designed to be flipped on and off at the drop of a hat. Its essentially what would happen if Goku tried to flip SSJ3 on and off and on again in the span of a few seconds apart from one another. The manga also never sets up Blue as another but Red God except stronger so its not inconsistent within its own continuity. I do think the drain is far too severe but then again, Red God vanished pretty quickly too so its not like there isn't a precedent for the God forms, at least for now, being flawed. I'll certainly take it over Blue being the bestest, superest, mostest perfect Super Saiyan form ever by virtue of retconning a Mastered SSJ form into being shit so Kaio-ken can come back.

Actually, in Chapter 12, Vegeta transforms into SSJB twice. He powered down to his base form after he knocked out Cabba as SSJB. Although, I still fail to see how transforming twice would count as "multiple" times. Transforming into a SSJB for approximately 10-20 seconds obviously seems to waste about 10-20% of your power. And the remaining 80-70% that Vegeta wasted must have come from his somewhat prolonged "battle" with Hit. It just makes you wonder how in God's name Goku and Vegeta managed to get past Golden Freeza in the manga. Unless that battle lasted less than a minute, I can't imagine a scenario, with the drastic drawbacks that SSJB supposedly has in the manga, where Golden Freeza doesn't beat the shit out of Goku and Vegeta.

Just because you don't like something doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense. SSB drains a lot of ki if you transform more than once, not by staying in that form for a while. Vegeta transformed twice, which drained 90% of his ki, because that's how the form works.

Which makes no sense since Vegeta and Goku trained for three years, yet Vegeta transforming to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan three times for a short time period drains 90% of his power. This is the worse power drained of any Super Saiyan form outside of Ultra and Super Saiyan 3 Goku when he came back to life. There was also no foreshadowing that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan drained that much power outside of Goku saying, I lose stamina so I'm saving that form. And Toriyama made it a point to say that the reason why Goku and Vegeta stopped using Super Saiyan 2 and 3 was because they were power drains and that they would focused on their base and Saiyain forms because they're more practical and would make them overall stronger in the long way.

This chapter went against what Toriyama said.

[LowRyder2005]

All we know is that Toriyama writes an outline which he gives to Toei and Toyotaro, that's it. If Toriyama cared about consistency, I'm sure he wouldn't have like Toei use Kaioken or Toyotaro use SSG.

Not at all. The exact process was reported some months ago (I think in the Official Announcement thread, with some storyboards image present as well) and I'm fairly certain I'm not recalling anything wrong: Toriyama double-checks everything that Toyotaro resends him and then he gives him the greenlight to finalize. In the anime, however, everything is expanded upon by TOEI's team of scenario writers while fleshing out the single episode.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/production/su ... /#scenario

That link doesn't say anything about Toriyama's role.

Let's recap. You said "not really" when I said "it contradicts Toriyama's statements."

Even if you are right, the fact remains that Toriyama double-checked two different works which contradicted themselves and his past statements, which is incredibly sloppy.

If you want to recap, I said "not really" in reference to your "all we know is that Toriyama writes an outline [and then it's basically up to TOEI and Toyotaro, in short]", which apparently meant you thought Toriyama wasn't further involved. And that's clearly not case, at least for the manga. It has been already reported that he goes over the storyboard again before applying corrections or giving his approval.

As for Toriyama being "sloppy", I guess it's possible. Or he simply has a laissez-faire attitude as long as he finds something good.

[dbzfan7]

Super Saiyan Trunks is fighting Super Saiyan Goku.....what.....

[Bullza]

Oh no here we go again.

So the preview for the next episode showed Goku and Trunks "fighting" and for some reason they're both in their Super Saiyan forms. Now if Base Goku >>>> SSJ3 Gotenks then why would he need to go Super Saiyan against Trunks? Super Saiyan or not? He should be nothing compared to Goku.

Does that mean that Trunks is also at God level now? I'm sure he's got stronger but I'd assume not so that could potentially confuse things again in the next episode.

Then there's Kid Trunks having enough power as a Super Saiyan for Goku to sense it but was it the last episode he couldn't sense Vegeta was it? I'm not sure on that but it's gotta be contradicting somehow.

Lastly Black didn't instantly pulverise Super Saiyan Trunks but it doesn't look like he was at full power.

[Chiki]

Super Saiyan Trunks is fighting Super Saiyan Goku.....what.....

Well, if Trunks didn't train much since then, that should confirm the two base theory beyond the shadow of a doubt. I won't jump to any conclusions though. We'll see next ep.

[dbzfan7]

What kind of training could Trunks possibly do to somehow put him on SSJ Goku's level. In a dead world. With no trainers or partners. Where even his master who trained still wasn't anything special.

[Chiki]

What kind of training could Trunks possibly do to somehow put him on SSJ Goku's level. In a dead world. With no trainers or partners. Where even his master who trained still wasn't anything special.

He has blue hair. He's always in full power SSGSS mode. And he can go SS to transform into Super Saiyan Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

[Lord Beerus]

Super Saiyan Trunks is fighting Super Saiyan Goku.....what.....

Yeah. That makes no sense. Especially if we're supposed to believe Base/SSJ = SSJG, because if that is the case, then something is really, really, really wrong.

[amuroray]

Goku must be taking it easy on trunks as there is no way trunks would be able to keep up with any form of goku.

but we to have remember power levels mean shit ahah

[LowRyder2005]

Still wouldn't make sense to turn Super Saiyan even if he was trolling around, he'd be able to fend him off easily in Base at this point.

Yeah, even though I wouldn't say that the "two base" stuff was intended anywhere in the series, they're literally creating something in which it's the only plausible explanation. It's bound to become "ascended canon" in the anime even if totally unreferenced at this rate.

[Faisal Shourov]

What the fuck is this nonsense? Base Vegeta can beat up SSJ3 Gotenks with ease yet Goku needs to go SSJ to fight Future Trunks?

Give up people, power level/scaling/multiplier everything is meaningless at this point

[Bullza]

In this episode he stopped his punch no problem. At least in the preview it doesn't look like he's having much trouble but you do see him put up his guard.

However seeing as how SSJ3 Gotenks laid into Copy (Base) Vegeta and he didn't even budge an inch then if Trunks can give Goku even a little trouble regardless of the form he's in then yeah it'd mean (SSJ) Trunks > SSJ3 Gotenks which I suppose isn't impossible if somehow he found a way to greatly power up but I have doubts about that.

So yeah it could turn things on it's head once again which would be annoying seeing as how things have become a little clearer lately.

[Saiyan007]

i love seeing people overreact to an episode preview

I mean we see in the past how previews can be misleading but nope we need to draw all the facts from it.

[Bullza]

Well speculating is all part of the discussion too and they're not always misleading. The preview made it look as though Goku went Super Saiyan for Black as well and perhaps the scene where Goku is putting his guard up is to defend from one of his attacks and not Trunks.

Even if that is how it goes there's still Goku turning into a Super Saiyan while confronting Super Saiyan Trunks which could be for several different reasons but one of them could be because it's the level he needs to be at to defend himself which would then make it possibly contradictory with the Gotenks fight.

Which would then possibly lead to

"Well the Gotenks vs Copy Vegeta fight was just filler and wasn't even in Toriyama's plot outline but this arc is canon so this fight probably is in the outline."

We'll know next week I guess.

[dbzfan7]

Well speculating is all part of the discussion too and they're not always misleading. The preview made it look as though Goku went Super Saiyan for Black as well and perhaps the scene where Goku is putting his guard up is to defend from one of his attacks and not Trunks.

Even if that is how it goes there's still Goku turning into a Super Saiyan while confronting Super Saiyan Trunks which could be for several different reasons but one of them could be because it's the level he needs to be at to defend himself which would then make it possibly contradictory with the Gotenks fight.

Which would then possibly lead to

"Well the Gotenks vs Copy Vegeta fight was just filler and wasn't even in Toriyama's plot outline but this arc is canon so this fight probably is in the outline."

We'll know next week I guess.

You can literally see in the next preview Goku and Trunks clash. You can see it very clearly.

But yeah, my answer is pretty much that stupid shit arc never happened and likely wasn't written by Toriyama, since he never brought it up as the next arc. Manga never has Goku go through that ki problem either since there was no Kaio-Ken.

Still Trunks powers up and is noticed as Gohan was, which completely invalidates his feat XD. Gohan sucks .

[Bullza]

Yeah the part where Goku is grabbing onto his fists, that's definitely Trunks. Whether it's also Trunks whose making Goku put his guard up is unknown, there's a 90% chance that it is Trunks though.

Maybe it's just as straight forward as Trunks really powering up a ton, it's not like Black steamrolled him instantly and he's not gonna be weak and it's not like Piccolo didn't suddenly get questionably God level himself. How much older is Trunks supposed to be compared to the Cell Games?

It would be cool if Trunks met Beerus and Whis and became and absorbed the power of a God in his timeline. That would make sense but it's probably farfetched.

[Xeztin]

Super Saiyan Trunks is fighting Super Saiyan Goku.....what.....

Yeah. That makes no sense. Especially if we're supposed to believe Base/SSJ = SSJG, because if that is the case, then something is really, really, really wrong.

We could potentially see a return of SSG, and if it happens that's really going to throw a wrench into everything but if it happens it would also show that SSJ Goku is around whatever he normally should be pre-SSG and God Ki.

[dbzfan7]

Guess I shoulda followed my past words from month's back.

I already think I am. This episode has convinced me that by next week, power levels will make even less sense. So no point in trying to make sense of any rubbish or pre-established tripe (even in Super itself), as they'll constantly change the rules. Any statement you hear now, can likely make no sense later.

[TheMikado]

Guess I shoulda followed my past words from month's back.

I already think I am. This episode has convinced me that by next week, power levels will make even less sense. So no point in trying to make sense of any rubbish or pre-established tripe (even in Super itself), as they'll constantly change the rules. Any statement you hear now, can likely make no sense later.

Exactly. That's the problem with super, the information. You knew 2 episodes ago is now completely different.