Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

My guess is that because Piccolo is standing against the Cell Jrs. like Vegeta and Trunks. His powerlevel is probably higher than the one used by Goku and Cell during their warm-up. Goku is likewise back at that level or worse, since he can't even maintain his stance.

Despite the fact the Goku told Piccolo after he finished his training in the ROSAT that Piccolo would stand no chance against Perfect Cell?

Well, Piccolo was still weaker than Goku and even Goku couldn't beat Cell, so there is no problem with that. The matter is if you believe Piccolo at least surpassed the level Cell used against Trunks and Vegeta.

[Lord Beerus]

My guess is that because Piccolo is standing against the Cell Jrs. like Vegeta and Trunks. His powerlevel is probably higher than the one used by Goku and Cell during their warm-up. Goku is likewise back at that level or worse, since he can't even maintain his stance.

Despite the fact the Goku told Piccolo after he finished his training in the ROSAT that Piccolo would stand no chance against Perfect Cell?

Well, Piccolo was still weaker than Goku and even Goku couldn't beat Cell, so there is no problem with that. The matter is if you believe Piccolo at least surpassed the level Cell used against Trunks and Vegeta.

I honestly don't think he did. I mean, Cell didn't even power up when he took on Goku. Cell only powered up when he took on Gohan.

[LightBing]

It's implied Piccolo is stronger than 50% Goku, that's why he asked Goku if he had a shot.

Goku>Piccolo>50% Goku>Vegeta (against Cell)>Trunks (against Cell)

[ZombieVito]

I honestly don't think he did. I mean, Cell didn't even power up when he took on Goku. Cell only powered up when he took on Gohan.

If he didn't the gap will be to big between him and the Cell Juniors.

What? Cell powered up after fighting Goku for a bit. He never powered up against Gohan until he transform into a SSJ2.

[DBZAOTA482]

Here's my rankings:

21st Budokai

Bacterian (body odor) > Goku w/ tail (Ranfan's Femme Fatale > ) ~ Jackie Chun > Nam > Jackie Chun (toying) > Goku w/o tail ~ Krillin > Giran > Yamcha > Bacterian > Ranfan

22nd Budokai (please use Tao Pai Pai as reference)

Goku~ Tien > Goku ( match-level; serious) >= Jackie Chun ( serious) > Tien ( non-serious ) > Chiaotzu ( telekinesis ) > Jackie Chun (toying) ~ Goku (match-level; toying) >= Krillin ~ Yamcha > Chiaotzu > Tao Pai Pai >= King Chappa > > Pamput > Man-Wolf

23rd Budokai (please use Goku (22nd Budokai), Goku (Post-Sacred Water), Piccolo Daimao/ King Piccolo as reference)

Goku ~ Piccolo > Goku (Unweighted) > Shen (Kami) >>> Tien (speed) > Goku (Weighted) >=Tien > Piccolo (suppressed) > Goku (Sacred Water) >= Piccolo Daimao (young) > Krillin > Yamcha > Cyborg Tao > Chi-Chi = Piccolo Daimao (old) > Yajirobe > Chiaotzu > Piccolo Daimao (old; <50%) >>> Goku (22nd Budokai) > King Chappa

25th Budokai (please use MSSJ Goku and MSSJ Gohan from the Cell Games as reference)

MSSJ Goku > MSSJ Gohan (Cell Games) = MSSJ Vegeta > MSSJ Goku (Cell Games) >= MSSJ Gohan ~ MSSJ Trunks >= MSSJ Goten >> Piccolo Goku > Vegeta > #18 ~ Gohan ~ Trunks >= Goten >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Spopovich (ki level) >>> Videl > Mr. Satan >= Jewel > Killa > Spopovich


What's yours?

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

It's implied Piccolo is stronger than 50% Goku, that's why he asked Goku if he had a shot.

Goku>Piccolo>50% Goku>Vegeta (against Cell)>Trunks (against Cell)

He never asked. At least not in Herms' translations. Only VIZ and the anime have that.

[Hugo Boss]

Well, Piccolo was still weaker than Goku and even Goku couldn't beat Cell, so there is no problem with that. The matter is if you believe Piccolo at least surpassed the level Cell used against Trunks and Vegeta.

I honestly don't think he did. I mean, Cell didn't even power up when he took on Goku. Cell only powered up when he took on Gohan.

Cell and Goku powered-up to a level where Piccolo is outclassed, sure. And apparently Piccolo wasn't too far from a Cell Jr., so he can manage something against characters much weaker than that.

[LightBing]

It's implied Piccolo is stronger than 50% Goku, that's why he asked Goku if he had a shot.

Goku>Piccolo>50% Goku>Vegeta (against Cell)>Trunks (against Cell)

He never asked. At least not in Herms' translations. Only VIZ and the anime have that.

It's here:

Chapter: 392 (DBZ 198), P13.1-5
Goku: “Hey… Piccolo! Did you go into the Room of Spirit and Time?”
Piccolo: “Indeed.”
Goku: “I can tell! You’ve risen to an entirely different level.”
Piccolo: “…Why don’t you just be frank with me? I’ve grown stronger, but even so, it won’t do any good against Cell…”
Goku: “…Yeah, it won’t do any good.”

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Chapter: 392 (DBZ 198), P13.1-5
Goku: “Hey… Piccolo! Did you go into the Room of Spirit and Time?”
Piccolo: “Indeed.”
Goku: “I can tell! You’ve risen to an entirely different level.”
Piccolo: “…Why don’t you just be frank with me? I’ve grown stronger, but even so, it won’t do any good against Cell…”
Goku: “…Yeah, it won’t do any good.”

I'm failing to see where Piccolo asks any questions.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

21st BUDOKAI:
Goku (Great Ape) >/>>~ Jackie Chun (Buff) >>..>> Goku (tailed) ~ Jackie Chun >/>~ Nam >~ Goku (tailless) >/>>= Krillin > Langfang >= Giran > Yamcha > Bacterian > Orinji Temple Bullies

22nd BUDOKAI:
Goku ~ Tenshinhan > Goku (Match level) >/>= Jackie Chun > Krillin >= Yamcha >~/~/= Chaozu >~ King Chappa >= Goku (Uranai Baba saga) >~ Son Gohan > Taopaipai

23rd BUDOKAI:
Goku ~ Piccolo >>> Kami-sama ~ Piccolo (@ Shen) >= Goku (@ Piccolo) >= Shen >>>> Tenshinhan ~ Goku (weighted; strength) > Goku (weighted; speed) ~ Goku (@ PD) >~ Young PD >/>~ Krillin >~ Yamcha > Cyborg Taopaipai > Old PD ~ Chichi > Chaozu > Yajirobe >>> Goku (22nd TB)

25th BUDOKAI:
Goku (Boo arc) >~ Kid Gohan (Cell arc) > Vegeta (pre-Majin) >/> Gohan (Boo arc) >~ Kid Trunks >= Goku (Cell arc) = Goten >>/>>> Piccolo (Boo arc) ~ Piccolo (Cell arc)

[Darkron2151]

Cell and Goku powered-up to a level where Piccolo is outclassed, sure. And apparently Piccolo wasn't too far from a Cell Jr., so he can manage something against characters much weaker than that.

Wasn't too far from a Cell Jr.? If that were the case, Cell would've mentioned Piccolo along with Trunks and Vegeta being able to "barely fight evenly". And considering the rest of the party on the ground is the human fodder and a severely weakened Goku, along with Gohan's reaction to the whole thing as everyone might potentially die, his feat of merely standing doesn't speak volumes about his power. That's like saying SSJ2 Vegeta "wasn't too far" from Kid Buu because he could still stand up after the latter kicked the crap out of him.

[Kamiccolo9]

Cell and Goku powered-up to a level where Piccolo is outclassed, sure. And apparently Piccolo wasn't too far from a Cell Jr., so he can manage something against characters much weaker than that.

Wasn't too far from a Cell Jr.? If that were the case, Cell would've mentioned Piccolo along with Trunks and Vegeta being able to "barely fight evenly". And considering the rest of the party on the ground is the human fodder and a severely weakened Goku, along with Gohan's reaction to the whole thing as everyone might potentially die, his feat of merely standing doesn't speak volumes about his power. That's like saying SSJ2 Vegeta "wasn't too far" from Kid Buu because he could still stand up after the latter kicked the crap out of him.

The phrasing Cell uses in Japanese actually does imply that "someone" else was putting up a fight. Process of elimination leaves Piccolo, as everyone else, including Goku, was taken out fairly easily, and Piccolo was seen standing.

[LightBing]

Chapter: 392 (DBZ 198), P13.1-5
Goku: “Hey… Piccolo! Did you go into the Room of Spirit and Time?”
Piccolo: “Indeed.”
Goku: “I can tell! You’ve risen to an entirely different level.”
Piccolo: “…Why don’t you just be frank with me? I’ve grown stronger, but even so, it won’t do any good against Cell…”
Goku: “…Yeah, it won’t do any good.”

I'm failing to see where Piccolo asks any questions.

You're being pedantic.It's a roundabout question, but still a question. It corroborates my point.

[Bullza]

21st

1. Jackie Chun
2. Goku
3. Nam
4. Krillin
5. Giran
6. Yamcha
7. Bacterian
8. Ranfan

22nd

1. Tien
2. Goku
3. Jackie Chun
4. Krillin
5. Yamcha
6. Mercenary Tao
7. Chiaotzu
8. Panput
9. Man Wolf

23rd

1. Goku
2. Piccolo Jr
3. Kami
4. Tien
5. Goku (Post Sacred Water)
6. King Piccolo
7. Krillin
8. Yamcha
9. Goku (22nd Budokai)
10. Mercenary Tao
11. Chi Chi

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

You're being pedantic.It's a roundabout question, but still a question. It corroborates my point.

I don't see how it's a question.

Chapter: 392 (DBZ 198), P13.1-5
Goku: “Hey… Piccolo! Did you go into the Room of Spirit and Time?”
Piccolo: “Indeed.”
Goku: “I can tell! You’ve risen to an entirely different level.”
Piccolo: “…Why don’t you just be frank with me? I’ve grown stronger, but even so, it won’t do any good against Cell…”
Goku: “…Yeah, it won’t do any good.”

He flat-out says he won't do any good against Cell. Him asking Goku to be frank with him isn't him asking if he can beat Cell. Otherwise, it'd be worded like this:

Piccolo: “…Why don’t you just be frank with me? I’ve grown stronger, but will it be enough to beat Cell…?”

That, coupled with Vegeta laughing off Piccolo's power, while actually admitting inferiority to 50% Goku tell me that Piccolo may not have even surpassed SSG2 Vegeta.

[Darkron2151]

Chapter: 392 (DBZ 198), P13.1-5
Goku: “Hey… Piccolo! Did you go into the Room of Spirit and Time?”
Piccolo: “Indeed.”
Goku: “I can tell! You’ve risen to an entirely different level.”
Piccolo: “…Why don’t you just be frank with me? I’ve grown stronger, but even so, it won’t do any good against Cell…”
Goku: “…Yeah, it won’t do any good.”

I'm failing to see where Piccolo asks any questions.

You're being pedantic.It's a roundabout question, but still a question. It corroborates my point.

Not really. Instead of Piccolo asking if he even had a chance against Cell, he does the opposite and flat-out states that he doesn't have a chance, to which Goku approves his prediction. Not sure how those are remotely the same.

The phrasing Cell uses in Japanese actually does imply that "someone" else was putting up a fight. Process of elimination leaves Piccolo, as everyone else, including Goku, was taken out fairly easily, and Piccolo was seen standing.

What japanese line is this exactly (I'm just unfamiliar)? And even then, why specify Vegeta and Trunks in particular having at least the capability to fight back and then expressing that even Goku can't fight back?

[Kamiccolo9]

The phrasing Cell uses in Japanese actually does imply that "someone" else was putting up a fight. Process of elimination leaves Piccolo, as everyone else, including Goku, was taken out fairly easily, and Piccolo was seen standing.

What japanese line is this exactly (I'm just unfamiliar)? And even then, why specify Vegeta and Trunks in particular having at least the capability to fight back and then expressing that even Goku can't fight back?

Chapter: 407 (DBZ 213), P5.3
Context: as the Cell Juniors beat everyone up
Cell (to Gohan): “If you don’t show your true worth soon, things will go past the point of no return. Look closely. Vegeta or Trunks are barely fighting evenly…Even Son Goku is in trouble, having lost his stamina…”
Note: Cell says that “Vegeta ya Trunks” are fighting evenly; ya is a non-exhaustive word for ‘and’, meaning the things listed aren’t necessarily the only things there are to list. In other words, Cell’s line doesn’t necessarily mean that nobody but Trunks or Vegeta are fighting evenly, just that they’re the first examples to come to mind

As for "why," maybe he just didn't feel like listing off everyone? I'm not one to argue semantics, nor do I claim to know what's going on in characters' heads. Vegeta and Trunks are stronger than Piccolo, so it wouldn't really be adding anything important to mention him anyway. He gets the point across by just referencing the Saiyans.

[MajinMan]

21st Tenkaichi Budokai

1. Great Ape Goku
2. Jackie Chun(Full Power)
3. Jackie Chun
4. Goku
5. Krillin
6. Nam
7. Giran
8. Yamcha
9. Bacterian
10. Ranfan




22nd Tenkaichi Budokai

1. Goku(Full Power)
2. Tenshinhan(Full Power)
3. Jackie Chun(Full Power)
4. Goku(Match Level)
5. Tenshinhan(Suppressed)
6. Krillin
7. Jackie Chun(Suppressed)
8. Yamcha
9. Chaozu
10. Panput
11. Man Wolf




23rd Tenkaichi Budokai

1. Goku(Without Weights)
2. Piccolo
3. Kami
4. Tenshinhan
5. Goku(Weights)
6. Krillin
7. Yamcha
8. Tao Pai Pai
9. Chi Chi




25th Tenkaichi Budokai

1. Goku
2. Vegeta
3. Gohan
4. Kaioshin
5. Piccolo
6. Trunks
7. Goten
8. #18
9. Kibito
10. Krillin
11. Yamu
12. Spopovich
13. Videl
14. Mr. Satan
15. Jewel
16. Killa
17. Punta
18. Mighty Mask

[Kamiccolo9]

Consider this a reply to every post in this thread:

"Why?"

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Assuming the "Why?" is questioning our reasoning behind the chains we made... meh... it would take a lot of work. If anyone was interested enough in a particular placement of mine and questioned it I would provide reasoning. But to explain all four of those chains with multiple characters and all of their relative placements...