Official On-Going DBZ 2015 Movie Thread: "Resurrection 'F'"

[FindKenshi]

I fear we've derailed the topic, and I'm to blame for that. Is there a big DB Minus ongoing discussion thread? I'd love to read all the board's regulars' comments regarding this story. I personally feel that it doesn't necessarily contradict anything. I mean, we never got a glimpse of Saiyan life and culture, other than Vegeta and Nappa who were psychotic murderers--one of which who turned "good" started a family anyway, and Raditz who could have just been lying. The reason Vegeta was with Raditz in Minus could be no more complex than Toriyama just wanted to draw Raditz again, and give Raditz fans a small nod. To show this very neglected character still exists in the author's mind. "Yep, I also remember Goku had a brother. He was hanging out with Vegeta back then, after all!"

Back on topic, however... I'm just super excited for this movie. Freeza has long since been my favorite character, to the extent that I even made a crappy freewebs fan-shrine dedicated to him. Just to see Freeza in the updated animation style, and hear Ryusei Nakao doing his voice again in all of his splendor makes the inner fanboy in me squeal in delight. And now, not only is Freeza the best villain--but at long last he's the strongest villain. If Freeza is going toe to toe with the likes of Godku, and Beerus, it means he's now the strongest of all and could one-shot Majin Buu or Super Vegetto.

Finally all the fantasy battles I made on Tenkaichi 2 & 3 of Freeza rising in power in Hell and returning stronger than anyone are actually going to be a reality. "I promised I'd show you a terror worse than Hell, didn't I?"

I am STRONGLY considering flying to Japan to see this in theaters. I even have the benefit of knowing someone that currently lives there, and they've already offered to house me for a day or two which should save a ton of money it would cost to find lodging.. of course the plane trip itself would still be expensive (probably over a grand?) and the fact that I can't understand Japanese at all... other than a few quips I picked up from watching subbed DBZ for years. "Kono uchuu ichi nanda.. FUREEZA SAMA!"

And it would be a dream come true.. if Freeza escapes or survives.. and becomes a recurring threat in the Dragonball Universe.


Anyway I like how they are going with the long-lived fan idea that Freeza never trained a day in his life, he was just born with his freakishly high power level, and he and his family believed they were vastly superior as some kind of birthright. So it makes sense that he would never train. But if his natural battle power is 120,000,000.. and you consider how titaniclly Goku grew from training.. it makes sense that if Freeza was trained by some old evil master in Hell, he could rise up above the ranks of Super Saiyan God and Beerus. He already knew how to control his battle power, imagine him learning all the subtleties about ki that the z-senshi knew.

I'm just picturing a scene in my head of Goku trying some feint on Freeza, and then getting cold-cocked.. and as he's like staggering and struggling to breathe, he manages to mutter "but.. you can.. sense ki now?" To which Freeza would just reply "hm hm hm.. if a monkey could do it, why couldn't I, the great Freeza do it?" and then just Kiai's Goku in the face and pushes him through a mountain.

[jollyr]

Wait.. is the fanbase really that bitter about Minus? I figured Kanzenshuu would be the one place where no one nitpicked continuity and just enjoyed new content for what it was!

Well it's a fun little story. But it doesn't fit with the background of Goku when he landed on Earth. According to everything else he was a baby that was found by Elder Gohan, and Goku was a fierce brat until he got dropped on his head down a ravine. Minus says he was 3yrs old when sent to Earth, and wearing Saiyan Armor. It doesn't fit with the early history in Dragon Ball that was established some 30yrs ago.

I think it's a cute side story, maybe alternate timeline or maybe Toriyama is trying to retcon some things and maybe redo Dragon Ball. Who knows really.

To be fair Goku landing on earth and when and how he looked was never shown in the manga. So for all the manga purists it doesn't contradict anything

[bleed0range]

Minus and all the other new content is making the continuity so messy now that it's going to really REALLY confuse any new fans coming into Dragonball. I think after this movie, I'll be fine if Toriyama and TOEI stop making new stuff for awhile. I like new stuff, but not when I have to constantly disregard previously established things whether it's in the manga or not.

[KameRule]

Minus and all the other new content is making the continuity so messy now that it's going to really REALLY confuse any new fans coming into Dragonball. I think after this movie, I'll be fine if Toriyama and TOEI stop making new stuff for awhile. I like new stuff, but not when I have to constantly disregard previously established things whether it's in the manga or not.

I think Toriyama might just be confusing himself with it all...

[Mewzard]

I never understood the hate for Minus, I liked it. And it's not like it changed much from the actual manga (very little of Goku's pre-DB childhood was detailed in the manga, and Raditz remembering a younger Goku is fine, who knows how often he bothered to check in on his little brother). What the anime and the Bardock special says happened isn't necessarily a permanently set guideline.

I liked that Toriyama expanded on the Saiyan culture (what Saiyans do for food, with less combat-ready Saiyans, how children are treated to a certain points), and actually had Bardock figure things out, rather than getting random psychic powers to get the plot going, only to get blown to dust anyways. Freeza having the Saiyans actually head to the planet makes more sense, because what are the odds that Freeza's whim to blow up the planet that day just happened to have four or so Saiyans off world of an entire race whose job is to go off world to conquer planets? That never made any sense.

Bardock's still a fairly wicked guy going around killing off races for Freeza. He's just slightly less dickish because he cares about his family back home. Pure evil can get boring, shades of gray are where the most interesting villains live. It was also nice of Minus to show Goku's mom, shonen tends to put too much focus on the dads really.

It was also nice to see what Raditz was up to when he was a kid as well. I suppose Nappa was off on his own at the time (Seeing Nappa would have been nice, but hey, otherwise pretty good).

On matters of the movie, I wonder if Freeza will talk about SSJ God in his arrival. This would be the time if ever there was one. I wonder if Toriyama was planning this movie when he did Minus...

[Herms]

I don't think Minus is that good overall, but I also think the negative fan reaction is rather disproportionate considering that it's basically just there to be 16 pages of bonus content for the Jaco collected edition. It's supposed to be read after going through Jaco, but it seems like most of the English speaking fanbase read it as a stand-alone story. It doesn't hold up as a stand-alone story, but it wasn't intended to hold up as one, so I feel it's gotten a lot of unfair stick in that regard. Still, arguably it was an inherently bad idea for Toriyama to touch on a big topic like Goku's parents in something that was never going to be anything other than throwaway bonus content.

Um, so, anyway...I wonder if any of the elements from Minus are going to be incorporated into the new movie? Freeza's shown to have heard rumors of Super Saiyan God in Minus, so at the very least that might factor in.

[VegettoEX]

but it seems like most of the English speaking fanbase read it as a stand-alone story.

Did Viz even mention in the least that it was Jaco material? Looking back through my subscription to the individual issue (and the issue before promoting it), it's just "bonus" or "brand new Dragon Ball chapter" and such. Of course, that makes complete sense, since as a company they're going to promote the aspect of the product that's going to get them the most attention. Putting "IT'S NEW DRAGON BALL!!!" as selling point #1 makes more sense than putting "BONUS JACO CHAPTER!!!" in the same place.

Um, so, anyway...I wonder if any of the elements from Minus are going to be incorporated into the new movie? Freeza's shown to have heard rumors of Super Saiyan God in Minus, so at the very least that might factor in.

Makes total sense. Seemed completely out of left field for Toriyama to have Freeza mentioning Super Saiyan God in "Dragon Ball Minus" so I wouldn't be surprised to have him tossaway-line-mention-it in the new movie, as well.

[EmmaWinters]

Um, so, anyway...I wonder if any of the elements from Minus are going to be incorporated into the new movie? Freeza's shown to have heard rumors of Super Saiyan God in Minus, so at the very least that might factor in.

"Super Saiyan God? Oh, that's right! That's what I was afraid of! Not a Super Saiyan, which confronted and bested me as I feared, but a Super Saiyan God, the most relevant and up-to-date form."

[Chuquita]

And Freeza turns to the audience when he says it. This makes me want to see some fourth wall breaking like that. XD

[Mewzard]

I don't think Minus is that good overall, but I also think the negative fan reaction is rather disproportionate considering that it's basically just there to be 16 pages of bonus content for the Jaco collected edition. It's supposed to be read after going through Jaco, but it seems like most of the English speaking fanbase read it as a stand-alone story. It doesn't hold up as a stand-alone story, but it wasn't intended to hold up as one, so I feel it's gotten a lot of unfair stick in that regard. Still, arguably it was an inherently bad idea for Toriyama to touch on a big topic like Goku's parents in something that was never going to be anything other than throwaway bonus content.

Um, so, anyway...I wonder if any of the elements from Minus are going to be incorporated into the new movie? Freeza's shown to have heard rumors of Super Saiyan God in Minus, so at the very least that might factor in.

It does work best as a bit extra with Jaco, which in and of itself is also part of an extension of the Dragon Ball Universe. I suppose it's kinda like the Silmarillion to the Lord of the Rings, only Toriyama lived to finish his work.

I have to imagine Toriyama added that line as set up for this movie...if he was actually planning it back then at least.

"Super Saiyan God? Oh, that's right! That's what I was afraid of! Not a Super Saiyan, which confronted and bested me as I feared, but a Super Saiyan God, the most relevant and up-to-date form."

Beerus did seem to know of both Freeza and Super Saiyan God at the time, maybe that's where Freeza learned of it. But after talking to the Saiyan people and only hearing of regular SSJ, maybe he just dismissed it as something made up or imagined. That's what I would imagine the best answer is until Toriyama says something definitive.

[bleed0range]

I don't think Minus is that good overall, but I also think the negative fan reaction is rather disproportionate considering that it's basically just there to be 16 pages of bonus content for the Jaco collected edition. It's supposed to be read after going through Jaco, but it seems like most of the English speaking fanbase read it as a stand-alone story. It doesn't hold up as a stand-alone story, but it wasn't intended to hold up as one, so I feel it's gotten a lot of unfair stick in that regard. Still, arguably it was an inherently bad idea for Toriyama to touch on a big topic like Goku's parents in something that was never going to be anything other than throwaway bonus content.

Um, so, anyway...I wonder if any of the elements from Minus are going to be incorporated into the new movie? Freeza's shown to have heard rumors of Super Saiyan God in Minus, so at the very least that might factor in.

I don't think it's the brevity of the bonus content or it being taken out of context (Jaco) that really irks fans about Minus. Minus was just unnecessary and actually makes Goku's origins less original then they already weren't. I appreciate Toriyama making something new, but we've already been told of his origin time and time again and it was never like that. All of a sudden it is and it's basically like Superman's parents sending him off now. I don't know, I just thought it was kind of lame. I wouldn't have needed to read all of Jaco to feel that way. It just didn't need to exist, imo. I mean of course BOG doesn't need to exist either, but at least it gave us some quality new characters and gave us some interesting character interaction and development.

[Mewzard]

I don't think it's the brevity of the bonus content or it being taken out of context (Jaco) that really irks fans about Minus. Minus was just unnecessary and actually makes Goku's origins less original then they already weren't. I appreciate Toriyama making something new, but we've already been told of his origin time and time again and it was never like that. All of a sudden it is and it's basically like Superman's parents sending him off now. I don't know, I just thought it was kind of lame. I wouldn't have needed to read all of Jaco to feel that way. It just didn't need to exist, imo. I mean of course BOG doesn't need to exist either, but at least it gave us some quality new characters and gave us some interesting character interaction and development.

...But his origin story in the Z era HAS ALWAYS BEEN similar to Superman's origin. I'm pretty sure that's at least partially why people have done Superman/Goku comparisons and fights (along with them both being ridiculously powerful).

It doesn't matter what the anime creators or movies say about his origin. It matters what Toriyama says. How often have we gotten Goku's origin from Toriyama? We got the start of DB version, then the retconned version in the Saiyan saga (which, don't kid yourself, was already really similar to Superman's origin), then Jaco+Minus expanded upon it without really changing all that much (his origin was far more changed with Raditz' appearance than anything Jaco and Minus did).

Honestly, the only thing that made Minus more like Superman's origin than what we heard in the Saiyan Saga was that Bardock was the one who sent him to the Earth to save his son (though Bardock was not nearly as benevolent about it as Jor-El was, I doubt he'd care if Kakarot wiped out the human race so long as he had food to live on), rather than just being scheduled to leave anyway (If Freeza was planning to blow up the planet, you'd think he'd cancel such missions before they were sent off).

[Chuquita]

By aging Kakarrotto up, I think Minus unintentionally makes it tragic. Baby Kakarrotto is arguably a blank slate; when he lost his memories all he really lost were his violent instincts according to the manga, but when you make Kakarrotto a child instead, that's someone who's old enough to form memories, attachments, and a sense of self. The money shot of child Kakarrotto as he's blasted off into space gives the impression that he was scared to be separated from his parents, that he at least cared about them. To lose both them and his memories of them, and then never be set right about what really happened; Gokû thinking thanks to Raditz that both his parents were completely irredeemable when they at least had a bit of good in them is really depressing.

It also makes that comment by child Gokû to Bulma when asked about his parents seem really dark in retrospect. He tells her something like 'oh they probably abandoned me because I had a tail' he says with a big grin on his face.

[Hellspawn28]

The new changes from Toriyama are okay with me. He is not like Todd McFarland where he does changes to the story due to avoid legal bull shit reasons. I do agree that Goku having a origin similar to Superman is nothing new. People have compare the two characters for decades now and no one had issues with Goku being similar to Superman in the past .

[Gyt Kaliba]

Kind of ironic that Minus is coming up so much again now, as I just got to re-read it today while at work (only my second time reading it I think; the rest of Jaco I'd never read at all - well, save for chapter 1 that I think I'd read before). At any rate, while I can definitely see why a lot of people have issues with Minus, I'd have to agree with the idea that it's a bit blown out of proportion at the same time. It's far from the death of the franchise or the worst thing ever. The renewed similarity to Superman's backstory is a bit much, but it's something that's always kind of been there, so...

I also don't see what the big deal about Gine is. Was there this much outcry against Table when he was first revealed? Gine isn't exactly the first "peaceful" Saiyan we've seen, and as I've said before, I find the idea that there were actually some "good" Saiyans out there to be more believable than 'oh yeah the entire race was evil' anyway; especially when it's made out to be a morbid joke as it is. That and just because Gine at least (we didn't see enough of Table to really judge, which is ironic since we see more of him than we do Gine) doesn't like fighting and isn't very good at it...she still seems to get along just fine hanging with the rest of her kind that does relish the violence. She doesn't seem to be trying to stop them or anything, or crying out for peace...so her "goodness" is only to a certain point anyway.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

I'll admit that there isn't much to DB-. It's a pretty basic "story" in a short number of pages. The concepts aren't really anything new though, and I don't see why everyone gets into such a big tizzy over them. Gine isn't some good Saiyan saint or anything. She was out there on the front lines with Bardock, killing alien species. It's not that she thought it was morally wrong for he race to go around slaughtering aliens, she just wasn't good at it. Though we are told she has kindness for her son and lover, and that it's rubbing off on Bardock...but is that such a big deal? Bardock already started to show emotions for his son at the end of the TV Special and had already developed bonds with the rest of his squad, who seemed to think Bardock should go see Kakarotto at the beginning of the special, or at least Selypa did. We're also shown that Nappa seems to care for Raditz enough to want to wish him back with the Dragon Balls, and Paragus has a bit of an emotional episode trying to prevent the death of Broli during the flashback in Movie 8. Even King Vegeta infiltrated Freeza's ship to start a coup and get his son back in filler... So I guess I just don't get how Gine and DB-!Bardock are suddenly the outlier here.

[UpFromTheSkies]

Minus and all the other new content is making the continuity so messy now that it's going to really REALLY confuse any new fans coming into Dragonball. I think after this movie, I'll be fine if Toriyama and TOEI stop making new stuff for awhile. I like new stuff, but not when I have to constantly disregard previously established things whether it's in the manga or not.

There is a funny canon explanation for continuity errors, which is that Toriyama forgets things. Normally the forgetfulness of an author isn't considered an "in story" explanation for a continuity problem, but Toriyama is actually represented in the manga and the characters are aware of him

Do you write down notes anywhere for that sort of background information?

No, I don’t do that. That’s why I keep on forgetting things. If I don’t forget stuff, new ideas won’t come to mind. For example, you know how there’s “Super Saiyan 3″?

Yes. Where the hair gets long.

I didn’t know that. (laughs) The whole time, I thought that was “Super Saiyan 2″. (laughs)

Whaaa?!

And I drew that myself. (laughs) Anyhow, I thought “2” was the one with long hair. It was like, “Man, I’ve really forgotten stuff…”.

I'd love for Goku to meet him in one of the new movies, and every time the camera cuts back to Goku his outfit changes because Tori-bot keeps forgetting how he's supposed to look.

[EmmaWinters]

Here's a higher quality version of that panel if you want it.

I'd love for Goku to meet him in one of the new movies, and every time the camera cuts back to Goku his outfit changes because Tori-bot keeps forgetting how he's supposed to look.

I'd love to see Toribot make an appearance, but it would be weird hearing him voiced unless it was Toriyama himself.

[UpFromTheSkies]

Here's a higher quality version of that panel if you want it.

I'd love for Goku to meet him in one of the new movies, and every time the camera cuts back to Goku his outfit changes because Tori-bot keeps forgetting how he's supposed to look.

I'd love to see Toribot make an appearance, but it would be weird hearing him voiced unless it was Toriyama himself.

Of course he would have to voice himself, it would be great. Ooishi-bot should be there too, working on the next chapter of Dragon Ball SD, which Goku would think was hilarious, Vegeta, however, not so much.

[FindKenshi]

Was there this much outcry against Table when he was first revealed?

Oh, yes. Trust me... people absolutely hated Tarble. I've seen every kind of outrageous reaction to his existence including people claiming they were permanently denouncing their fandom to Dragonball, or even aggressively attacking anyone on a forum that mentioned the character. "STOP bringing up Tarble! That horrid character does not exist, he is NOT canon!"

In fact, the reaction to Tarble seemed even stronger than the reaction to Goku's mother, for some reason.