Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[dbgtFO]

Isn't Cyborg Tao stated to be 210?

Bulma = 4 - the average man is a 5, so maybe the average woman is a 4?
Oolong = 2 - weak as fuck and can't even lift Bulma.
Ran Fan = 5

Why do you even care to list that?

Besides, I don't think the Ki of a man and woman is different, only their bodies

1.

And this is where the low Fighting Power numbers come from. Old Piccolo Daimao clearly states, that he's not even using ½ of his power when beating up on 180 Goku, so that would mean, that his Full Power would be beyond 360, yet the Full Power of his young self only has 260...

So yeah Young Piccolo Daimao at 260, while Goku pre Super God Water is at 180 is a clear contradiction of the manga, so they are wrong. And Tenshinhan surpassed Goku from 3 years ago, so his Fighting Power is not below Piccolo Daimao's either.

2. For fun's sake, which this thread is about

I also have an idea about Toriyama's original thoughts on the Kaio-ken/Kaio-ken x2 inconsistency deal:
Normal Kaio-ken is stated to double the users Fighting Power, but Goku then uses Kaio-ken x2 and treats it as something different from regular Kaio-ken(even the Daizenshuus do!), so the intention seemed to be, that Kaio-ken x2 doubled the Kaio-ken and quadrupled the base power.

Remember at this point in the story Vegeta's FP hadn't been revealed yet, so basically I think Toriyama had this in mind:

Goku = 8000 - rounded down for convenience's sake.
-Kaio-ken = 16.000 - doubling his FP, as stated by the narrator.
-Kaio-ken x2 = 32.000 - doubling the normal Kaio-ken hence the name Kaio-ken times two.
-Kaio-ken x3 = 48.000 - tripling the normal Kaio-ken hence the name Kaio-ken times three.
-Kaio-ken x4 = 64.000 - Goku however doesn't get to use that power, since he's already weakened to the point, where his Kaio-ken x3 Kamehameha is equal to Vegeta's Gallick Cannon.

Vegeta = 1800 - surfaced ki up till the point, where he kills Nappa.
-Killing Nappa = 18.000 - his later official FP.
-Powerup/Full Power = 36.000 - Goku tries double Kaioken, but realizes, that even with that, he can't keep up.
-Oozaru(hypothetical Full Power) = 360.000 - Vegeta would be this, if it wasn't for creating the moon ball weakening him.

So this is what I think AT had in mind with the Kaio-ken/Kaio-ken x2 inconsistency deal. It would work, if Dodoria didn't state that Vegeta was 18.000 before going to Earth and if Vegeta didn't max out at 24.000, when facing Kui. So yeah AT did in fact make it inconsistent in the Namek Arc(and it doesn't help much that the guidebooks support the idea, that Kaio-ken is different from Kaio-ken x2):

[...]Goku counters with the Kaio-ken, but even that fell short, so he raises its power x2.
Vol. 19 / Chp. 228
Vegeta exhibits strength that Goku can't even scratch, even while using the Kaio-ken. He is certainly the strongest Saiyan warrior.
Vol. 20 / Chp. 229
Goku at last has no choice but to use the Kaio-ken x2. Even with that, he has to dodge with all his might.

http://www.kanzentai.com/trans-daiz02.p ... attle#link

Kaio-ken
User(s): Son Goku
It can power up the user's attack power, speed, and the strength of their techniques.[...]
Catalog of Other Techniques
Kaio-ken x2: Son Goku
Kaio-ken x3: Son Goku
Kaio-ken x4: Son Goku

http://www.kanzentai.com/trans-daiz04.p ... tacks#link

[Fox666]

And this is where the low Fighting Power numbers come from. Old Piccolo Daimao clearly states, that he's not even using ½ of his power when beating up on 180 Goku, so that would mean, that his Full Power would be beyond 360, yet the Full Power of his young self only has 260...

So yeah Young Piccolo Daimao at 260, while Goku pre Super God Water is at 180 is a clear contradiction of the manga, so they are wrong. And Tenshinhan surpassed Goku from 3 years ago, so his Fighting Power is not below Piccolo Daimao's either.

I think the simpliest way to explain is that "half" shouldn't be taken in a literal sense. Toriyama hadn't built up numeric representations for characters so far, so he take care when using terms such as "half" when refering to power.

He only did so later, when he introduced the concept of battle powers, he indicates the power of many characters which should be somewhat around what they were in the 23rd Budokai: Kame-sennin 139, Kuririn 206, Tenshinhan 250, etc.

For me it's looks fair for Tao Pai Pai to have 210. He is slight stronger than Kuririn, since he easily took down Chaos, but significantly weaker than Tenshinhan. For me that's from were this level comes from.

Besides, if you take it literal that Piccolo was using only "half" of his power, you will get on an unbeliveable high level for him. Based only in the manga battle powers, he is for sure over 280 since Kame-sennin has 139. However he doesn't have mere that, there are several power-ups since them: Kame trained for the 22nd Budokai, Goku suprassed him, Piccolo gets youngers, etc. You will see that if you take "half" serious, Piccolo Daimao should be able to defeat everybody altogether besides Goku and Ma Junior at the beggining of the Raditz saga. And I don't think Tenshinhan or Kuririn are still that far from him.

I also have an idea about Toriyama's original thoughts on the Kaio-ken/Kaio-ken x2 inconsistency deal:
Normal Kaio-ken is stated to double the users Fighting Power, but Goku then uses Kaio-ken x2 and treats it as something different from regular Kaio-ken(even the Daizenshuus do!), so the intention seemed to be, that Kaio-ken x2 doubled the Kaio-ken and quadrupled the base power.

Remember at this point in the story Vegeta's FP hadn't been revealed yet, so basically I think Toriyama had this in mind:

I think that the Kaio-ken is not a case of inconsistency. it's a retronym (i.e. "guitar" becomes "acoustic guitar" once an "eletric guitar" began to exist)

Toriyama simply renamed the technique, so that it would be easy to diff beetween the Kaio-ken x2 and x3. Later in Namek arc, against Ginyu, he calls it simply "Kaio-ken" again.

[...]Goku counters with the Kaio-ken, but even that fell short, so he raises its power x2.
Vol. 19 / Chp. 228
Vegeta exhibits strength that Goku can't even scratch, even while using the Kaio-ken. He is certainly the strongest Saiyan warrior.
Vol. 20 / Chp. 229
Goku at last has no choice but to use the Kaio-ken x2. Even with that, he has to dodge with all his might.

That's interesting.

I wonder, does this "x2" is a mistranslation from a term like "a second time"? Hmm, I think Herms is pretty good at translations, he wouldn't miss that

[dbgtFO]

I think the simpliest way to explain is that "half" shouldn't be taken in a literal sense. Toriyama hadn't built up numeric representations for characters so far, so he take care when using terms such as "half" when refering to power.

He only did so later, when he introduced the concept of battle powers, he indicates the power of many characters which should be somewhat around what they were in the 23rd Budokai: Kame-sennin 139, Kuririn 206, Tenshinhan 250, etc.

For me it's looks fair for Tao Pai Pai to have 210. He is slight stronger than Kuririn, since he easily took down Chaos, but significantly weaker than Tenshinhan. For me that's from were this level comes from.

Besides, if you take it literal that Piccolo was using only "half" of his power, you will get on an unbeliveable high level for him. Based only in the manga battle powers, he is for sure over 280 since Kame-sennin has 139. However he doesn't have mere that, there are several power-ups since them: Kame trained for the 22nd Budokai, Goku suprassed him, Piccolo gets youngers, etc. You will see that if you take "half" serious, Piccolo Daimao should be able to defeat everybody altogether besides Goku and Ma Junior at the beggining of the Raditz saga. And I don't think Tenshinhan or Kuririn are still that far from him.

I believe ½ power is ½ power.
And as I already stated Kame-Sennin for some reason never goes Full Power, maybe because it costs him his speed like SSJ grade 3?
In any case he could have used it against Piccolo Daimao, but probably realized, that it wouldn't be enough for him and so used the Mafuba instead.

I think that the Kaio-ken is not a case of inconsistency. it's a retronym (i.e. "guitar" becomes "acoustic guitar" once an "eletric guitar" began to exist)

Toriyama simply renamed the technique, so that it would be easy to diff beetween the Kaio-ken x2 and x3. Later in Namek arc, against Ginyu, he calls it simply "Kaio-ken" again.

If that was the case, then Goku would have no reason to say, that even the KKx2 is futile against Vegeta, since he tried it a minute ago to no avail. It's an obvious goof, if you ask me.

That's interesting.

I wonder, does this "x2" is a mistranslation from a term like "a second time"? Hmm, I think Herms is pretty good at translations, he wouldn't miss that

Even if it was, there's also D4 saying that Kaio-Ken and Kaio-Ken x2 are not the same technique...

[Fox666]

If that was the case, then Goku would have no reason to say, that even the KKx2 is futile against Vegeta, since he tried it a minute ago to no avail. It's an obvious goof, if you ask me.

There is more than one way to explain that...

The first would be that Vegeta powered-up. So before Goku could "keep up" with Vegeta, after he power-up Goku was no match.

But of course in the first time Vegeta only landed a kick on Goku's face, so it's not so surprising that Goku tried to use the same Kaio-ken two times. He didn't give up to Freeza after the first hit after all

[Piccolo Daimao]

Kame-Sennin for some reason never goes Full Power, maybe because it costs him his speed like SSJ grade 3?
In any case he could have used it against Piccolo Daimao, but probably realized, that it wouldn't be enough for him and so used the Mafuba instead.

I think it just puts too much strain on his body and may cost him his speed as well. After all, the only times he ever uses it is for his full-power Kamehameha, and he goes back to normal straight afterwards. And then there's this:

Chapter: 135, P6.1
Kame-sennin: “Despite the cute name, [Piccolo] was an outrageously fearsome person…His strength was extremely overwhelming…[ ] He was an opponent we were utterly unable to oppose; not only my younger self or Tsuru-sennin, but even our master, Mutaito.”

As we see from this quote, Piccolo Daimao was much stronger than not only Kame-sennin and Tsuru-sennin at their primes, but even their stronger master, Mutaito. And yeah, I think Kame-sennin realized that using full power would just be a waste, as he can't stop him without using the Mafuuba.

[Herms]

I wonder, does this "x2" is a mistranslation from a term like "a second time"?

Nah, that would be nido instead of nibai.

[dbgtFO]

If that was the case, then Goku would have no reason to say, that even the KKx2 is futile against Vegeta, since he tried it a minute ago to no avail. It's an obvious goof, if you ask me.

There is more than one way to explain that...

The first would be that Vegeta powered-up. So before Goku could "keep up" with Vegeta, after he power-up Goku was no match.

But of course in the first time Vegeta only landed a kick on Goku's face, so it's not so surprising that Goku tried to use the same Kaio-ken two times. He didn't give up to Freeza after the first hit after all

Chapter: 229 (DBZ 35), P1.1
Narrator: “Vegeta's strength has greatly surpassed what Goku had figured on...! That power was such that not even the Kaio-ken, which doubled Goku's battle power, could give Goku the upper hand... What will you do?! Goku!!"

The narrator clearly states, that Goku is in serious trouble, even before Vegeta goes full power, so Goku thinking the same Kaio-ken would do any better than his shitty first try, when his opponent has gotten even stronger than before, doesn't make much sense to me honestly.

It was a Toriyama goof.

[Fox666]

The narrator clearly states, that Goku is in serious trouble, even before Vegeta goes full power, so Goku thinking the same Kaio-ken would do any better than his shitty first try, when his opponent has gotten even stronger than before, doesn't make much sense to me honestly.

Well, I am kinda of lost here. Goku also used the Kaio-ken against Oozaru Vegeta, despite claiming that even a 5x Kaio-ken wouldn't work. I don't really see why Goku can't use the same technique twice.

[Piccolo Daimao]

The narrator clearly states, that Goku is in serious trouble, even before Vegeta goes full power, so Goku thinking the same Kaio-ken would do any better than his shitty first try, when his opponent has gotten even stronger than before, doesn't make much sense to me honestly.

Well, I am kinda of lost here. Goku also used the Kaio-ken against Oozaru Vegeta, despite claiming that even a 5x Kaio-ken wouldn't work. I don't really see why Goku can't use the same technique twice.

No, he didn't. Unless you're talking about the aura he displayed when flying away from Ozaru Vegeta to prepare the Genki-Dama. But even if that was a Kaio-Ken, it may have been for the purpose of getting away from Vegeta as fast as possible to form the Genki-Dama.

[dbgtFO]

The narrator clearly states, that Goku is in serious trouble, even before Vegeta goes full power, so Goku thinking the same Kaio-ken would do any better than his shitty first try, when his opponent has gotten even stronger than before, doesn't make much sense to me honestly.

Well, I am kinda of lost here. Goku also used the Kaio-ken against Oozaru Vegeta, despite claiming that even a 5x Kaio-ken wouldn't work. I don't really see why Goku can't use the same technique twice.

But that case was different. Goku knew he was outmatched and so didn't make a extra comment about how Oozaru Vegeta made it impossible for him to keep up.

When he did it against regular Vegeta, he had already used it once to no avail and should thusly not expect anything better from his second try against an even more powerful Vegeta, yet he still makes that comment about even Kaio-ken x2 being nothing, which the previous chapter already showed us it was. And the Daizenshuus support the idea, they are different, so for all intents and purposes, that's what Toriyama originally was going for apparently.

[Kaboom]

I'd think the omniscient narrator would have more say than most others.

One way or another, there is a contradiction. "Toriyama goofed" is the simplest, least headache-inducing answer to the Kaio-Ken conundrum, I think.

[dbgtFO]

It seems, that Toriyama already realized he goofed in the very next chapter, where Goku prepares Kaio-ken x3.
If his intention was to have Kaio-ken and Kaio-ken x2 be different, then he wouldn't have made Kaio-ken x3 only surpass 21.000, since logically Bulma's scouter would have picked up Goku's level beforehand, if it ever surpassed 21.000 during Kaio-ken x2.

So apparently Toriyama realized his mistake and from that point onwards, Kaio-ken = Kaio-ken x2.

[p123]

Like that, good stuff DBGTFO...

Hey anyone want to start a Broly thread, I think I have some interesting stuff for you guys in regards to M10 Broly, and how he is a Kid Buu Level power...

[dbgtFO]

Hey anyone want to start a Broly thread, I think I have some interesting stuff for you guys in regards to M10 Broly, and how he is a Kid Buu Level power...

I don't think anyone is going to buy it, but you are free to make a topic about it.

[Kaboom]

Hey anyone want to start a Broly thread, I think I have some interesting stuff for you guys in regards to M10 Broly, and how he is a Kid Buu Level power...

Translation: "Hey, would anyone like to start a masochism club? I have some nice ideas in regards to mallets, and I'd like to smash in your skulls with one..."

[p123]

Lol, nah it's more about how I found some interesting plausible theories about his strength...


Lssj broly >> fat buu=ssj2 gohan >>>> Ssj broly > base gohan>= Mssj goku


Gohan in M10 = Post Zeta Gohan = A Gohan who trained over the 7 years...


Plausibly making Broly a Ssj3 level opponent , at least in Movie 10...

Found it pretty interesting, this guy Broly is really hard to place...

[dbgtFO]

Well the fact is, that you are merely speculating and thus don't have any concrete proof about how Broly compares to "canon" characters.
I don't think there's any way to factually prove that Broly is that strong anyways.
He can only be that strong in personal power level lists.

[Fox666]

Broly can't take on Videl, his battle power should be below 10.

[dbgtFO]

Broly can't take on Videl, his battle power should be below 10.

So true.

[Kaboom]

Any incarnation of Broly from either movie would be lucky if he can match full-power Perfect Cell, much less freakin' Kid Boo.