Unique DBZ Related Beliefs and Opinions

Piccolo Daimao · Post by **Piccolo Daimao** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 5:08 pm

Unlike a lot of people on this forum, I was fine with Dragon Ball ending at the Majin Boo Saga. It wasn't a perfect ending, but it was good for some things, like Vegeta eventually reforming at the end of the series and realizing that Goku was the best. If the series ended at Cell, or even Freeza, I would've felt a bit unhappy with Vegeta's character development. It seems like he never really becomes good until after his sacrifice.

If Dragon Ball had ended at the 23rd Tenka'ichi Budokai, while it would've been a great ending point, we wouldn't have gotten Dragon Ball Z and thus, we wouldn't have gotten Super Saiyan and Freeza and all the other things that have contributed brilliantly to the series. Although, when you think about it, if it had ended at the Budokai, maybe the game developers would've taken more time putting in essential (or not essential) DB characters rather than just random DBZ ones that barely fight in the series. Simply, without DBZ, I don't think the series would be as big as it is now, and we wouldn't have as much to talk about on this forum. I mean, when someone thinks of DBZ, they think of tall muscled guys with spiky golden hair sounding like they're constipated all the time. You could say that that's a downside because that's all non-fans will ever remember DBZ, maybe it's that which will persuade them to pursue the series and find out that it's not all about big explosions and spiky-haired musclemen, but it's much more deep than that. I'm not saying DB is really deep, but I'm not saying it's really shallow either. DB goes into details about the characters' motives, their backstories and their personalities. So actually, I am thankful that DBZ carried on through to the Boo Saga.

And as a little fanboy rant, why didn't we get Ran Fuan in DBZ BT3? They could've had her Seductive Stripping as an Ultimate Blast! (Yeah, yeah, I know I'm a perv

)

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:59 pm

Travis Touchdown wrote:You'll never convince me that Superman can take Goku. I believe Superman's only chance is if Goku fights in his base, then it would be even.

Yeah?

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 12:12 am

Bussani wrote:
Travis Touchdown wrote:You'll never convince me that Superman can take Goku. I believe Superman's only chance is if Goku fights in his base, then it would be even.

Yeah?

Which is why we should always specify which Superman.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 12:23 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Bussani wrote:
Travis Touchdown wrote:You'll never convince me that Superman can take Goku. I believe Superman's only chance is if Goku fights in his base, then it would be even.

Yeah?
Which is why we should always specify which Superman.

Yeah, but "You'll never convince me that weakest-Superman-we-can-think-of can take (SSJ3+) Goku" seems kind of...

Travis Touchdown · Post by **Travis Touchdown** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:57 am

*shrug* Still not convinced. If a DBZ character can tear the dimensional fabric of space/time just by screaming, then I see that as the more impressive feat. All that shows me is that Superman can't control his power very well.

Once Superman fights his villains like this, I'll believe he has a chance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cxq84z6YfEY

Adamant · Post by **Adamant** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:03 am

Space/time? Superman punched a hole through fucking reality. As a kid.

Sort of.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 9:06 am

Adamant wrote:Space/time? Superman punched a hole through fucking reality. As a kid.

Sort of.

Superboy-Prime is still Superboy.

Regarding Supes vs Goku, if we compare Toriyama's Superman or the original Shuster and Siegel Superman to Goku, we know Goku would win:

1) Toriyama's Superman, who is part of Dr Slump and therefore of the same world as Dragonball, is considered a pathetic weakling by Suppaman's standards. In the Red Ribbon arc, we see it doesn't take much to make Suppaman shit bricks. In fact, he's basically Farmer with Shotgun with the ability to fly; we've seen him afraid of guns before. Therefore Pilaf saga Goku is probably stronger than Toriyama's Superman.

2) Shuster and Siegel's Superman could be knocked unconscious by a WWI bomber, but is impervious to shotguns. Meanwhile, Superman would find no problem pushing that rock that ended Goku and Krillin's training, so we know he's stronger than 21st Budokai Goku, but probably weaker than 22nd Budokai Goku.

Li'l Lemmy · Post by **Li'l Lemmy** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 9:30 pm

Just to throw my two cents into the topic-within-a-topic, I personally break the entire series into just three arcs: Freeza, Cell and Boo. None of this "Saiyan" saga or "Babidi" saga nonsense for me.

~Da Lemmy

Ex-Dubbie369 · Post by **Ex-Dubbie369** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:17 pm

Dayspring wrote:1) Toriyama's Superman, who is part of Dr Slump and therefore of the same world as Dragonball, is considered a pathetic weakling by Suppaman's standards. In the Red Ribbon arc, we see it doesn't take much to make Suppaman shit bricks. In fact, he's basically Farmer with Shotgun with the ability to fly; we've seen him afraid of guns before. Therefore Pilaf saga Goku is probably stronger than Toriyama's Superman.

Are you saying that the Toriyama-verse is part of the DC multiverse (Pre-Crisis I guess, if that means anything anymore)? Earth-Tori-Bot?

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:11 am

Ex-Dubbie369 wrote:
Dayspring wrote:1) Toriyama's Superman, who is part of Dr Slump and therefore of the same world as Dragonball, is considered a pathetic weakling by Suppaman's standards. In the Red Ribbon arc, we see it doesn't take much to make Suppaman shit bricks. In fact, he's basically Farmer with Shotgun with the ability to fly; we've seen him afraid of guns before. Therefore Pilaf saga Goku is probably stronger than Toriyama's Superman.
Are you saying that the Toriyama-verse is part of the DC multiverse (Pre-Crisis I guess, if that means anything anymore)? Earth-Tori-Bot?

No, just that there is a means of selecting which Superman should be compared to Goku. Either take the same continuity (ie: Toriyama's Superman and Toriyama's Goku), or the original incarnactions of each (Shuster and Siegel's Superman and Toriyama's Goku).

Though with the way Grant Morisson is trying to retcon everything with his Countdowns and not-so-Final-Crises and Multiversities, I suppose it is possible that an Earth-Tori-Bot would be considered part of the canon.

[rant]I mean honestly! Who tries to retcon the Crisis out of existence?! It's a cornerstone of comics in general, and the source of anything worth reading in DC Comics! And All-Star Super-verse creating Watchmen-verse creating the canon-DC-verse creating New Earth-1 which is actually the All-Star Super-verse IS NOT A CLOSED CAUSALITY LOOP AT ALL![/rant]

Shoryuken · Post by **Shoryuken** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 12:32 pm

Travis Touchdown wrote:*shrug* Still not convinced. If a DBZ character can tear the dimensional fabric of space/time just by screaming, then I see that as the more impressive feat. All that shows me is that Superman can't control his power very well.

Once Superman fights his villains like this, I'll believe he has a chance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cxq84z6YfEY

Oh my, Superman has fought beings far more powerful than the likes of Cell.
A quick scouring across the net reveals that silver-age Superman is immensely strong, but has a huge weakness towards magical objects.
He also is way faster than light which poses a problem for Goku.
Besides even movie-superman is quicker than Goku.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 1:16 pm

Shoryuken wrote:
Travis Touchdown wrote:*shrug* Still not convinced. If a DBZ character can tear the dimensional fabric of space/time just by screaming, then I see that as the more impressive feat. All that shows me is that Superman can't control his power very well.

Once Superman fights his villains like this, I'll believe he has a chance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cxq84z6YfEY
Oh my, Superman has fought beings far more powerful than the likes of Cell.
A quick scouring across the net reveals that golden-age Superman is immensely strong, but has a huge weakness towards magical objects.
He also is way faster than light which poses a problem for Goku.
Besides even movie-superman is quicker than Goku.

Is this supposed to show that he's faster than time or chronotons or something? How does reversing the Earth's rotation lead to time travel?

Post by **Herms** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 1:46 pm

Li'l Lemmy wrote:Just to throw my two cents into the topic-within-a-topic, I personally break the entire series into just three arcs: Freeza, Cell and Boo. None of this "Saiyan" saga or "Babidi" saga nonsense for me.

I really don't see how the Saiyan and Freeza arcs are one big story arc. Sure, one leads into the other, but they still both seperate story arcs, with their own build-ups and climaxes. Would you say that the Daimao and 23rd TB arcs are the same, or that Uranai Baba is part of the RR arc?

Li'l Lemmy · Post by **Li'l Lemmy** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:13 pm

Herms wrote:
Li'l Lemmy wrote:Just to throw my two cents into the topic-within-a-topic, I personally break the entire series into just three arcs: Freeza, Cell and Boo. None of this "Saiyan" saga or "Babidi" saga nonsense for me.
I really don't see how the Saiyan and Freeza arcs are one big story arc. Sure, one leads into the other, but they still both seperate story arcs, with their own build-ups and climaxes. Would you say that the Daimao and 23rd TB arcs are the same, or that Uranai Baba is part of the RR arc?

I wouldn't go so far as all that, no. And there's nothing to say that my own categorization of events isn't open to debate, because it's actually fairly wrong by any sort of "official" standard and I know it.

It's more a matter of personal preference than anything, because it conveniently blocks the Z series into three similarly-sized chunks. I can feel comfortable with it because Vegeta's arrival is a direct lead-in to Freeza, just like the Artificial Humans are the opening act for Cell and Babidi the catalyst for Boo. I wouldn't classify any of those lesser confrontations as sagas either-- there's always a bigger picture to consider and a more powerful enemy on the horizon. So likewise for Vegeta.

~Da Lemmy

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:48 pm

Neither the Cell nor the Boo arcs had their own Big with a capital B confrontations before the main event though. There was nothing like the battle with Vegeta mid-way through the Cell or Boo arcs.

That's why the whole android/Cell arc always felt like a single arc to me, despite it being pretty haphazardly written with no suggestion of the enemies to come until they actually show up. There's one, very obvious climax, and that's the battle with Cell. The battle with Vegeta is very much a climax too, and there's not even a hint of Freeza until it's over.

Of course the Freeza arc does follow on from it very well.

Shoryuken · Post by **Shoryuken** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 3:10 pm

Dayspring wrote:
Shoryuken wrote:
Travis Touchdown wrote:*shrug* Still not convinced. If a DBZ character can tear the dimensional fabric of space/time just by screaming, then I see that as the more impressive feat. All that shows me is that Superman can't control his power very well.

Once Superman fights his villains like this, I'll believe he has a chance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cxq84z6YfEY
Oh my, Superman has fought beings far more powerful than the likes of Cell.
A quick scouring across the net reveals that golden-age Superman is immensely strong, but has a huge weakness towards magical objects.
He also is way faster than light which poses a problem for Goku.
Besides even movie-superman is quicker than Goku.
Is this supposed to show that he's faster than time or chronotons or something? How does reversing the Earth's rotation lead to time travel?

It's from a cheesy movie, but underlines that no matter what incarnation of Superman you choose he will always have insane super speed that sometimes is superior of Goku's, minus the animated incarnations of Superman.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:03 pm

Dayspring wrote:How does reversing the Earth's rotation lead to time travel?

I always assumed the Earth rotating in reverse was an effect of time moving backwards, rather than the cause.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:15 pm

Bussani wrote:
Dayspring wrote:How does reversing the Earth's rotation lead to time travel?
I always assumed the Earth rotating in reverse was an effect of time moving backwards, rather than the cause.

If that's the case, then how does flying around the Earth really fast lead to time travel?

@Shoryuken: I know, I just never understood its time travel mechanics. And calling the first two Christopher Reeves movies cheesy is blasphemy!

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 11:09 pm

Dayspring wrote:
Bussani wrote:
Dayspring wrote:How does reversing the Earth's rotation lead to time travel?
I always assumed the Earth rotating in reverse was an effect of time moving backwards, rather than the cause.
If that's the case, then how does flying around the Earth really fast lead to time travel?

Treknobabble.

Shoryuken · Post by **Shoryuken** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:28 am

Dayspring wrote: @Shoryuken: I know, I just never understood its time travel mechanics. And calling the first two Christopher Reeves movies cheesy is blasphemy!

Well I'm no Superman-fan so no blasphemy from my side besides the first movie was alright enough, but the last two are just awful.