Dragonball GT: not so bad after all

[Bussani]

What irritates me is when people say stupid things like "GT makes no sense" or "the characters got screwed", without explaining why they think this.

Maybe because it's been explained to death already?

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

What irritates me is when people say stupid things like "GT makes no sense" or "the characters got screwed", without explaining why they think this.

Maybe because it's been explained to death already?

Well, I certainly haven't heard those explanations. It doesn't matter anyways, because those comments are stupid and not thought out.


"GT makes no sense". Bullshit. I'm not the smartest guy around, but I fully understood GT's plot. I never stopped once and went, "what the hell just happened?". It doesn't take a genius to understand that Gokū, Trunks and Pan have to go find the Ultimate Dragon Balls around the galaxy or the earth will be destroyed.


"The story is random". Bullshit. Even more bullshit than the last one. The story progresses episode by episode, in a sequential order that leads up to a conclusion (and a brilliant one, at that). No episode in Dragon Ball GT seemed out of place to me.


"The characters got screwed". Bullshit. All of the characters acted how they normally did in Dragon Ball Z. Some of the characters grew up and their personalties changed. That's normal. Yes, some characters got more action that others. That's a fact, but it doesn't mean that they "got screwed". They just got less screentime.

[Rocketman]

"The characters got screwed". Bullshit.

Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Vegeta, and Super Uub can't budge Super 17. Goku punches him across half the planet.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

"The characters got screwed". Bullshit.

Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Vegeta, and Super Uub can't budge Super 17. Goku punches him across half the planet.

How is that "screwing the characters"? That's just showing that Gokū is stronger than all of them.

[Cipher]

Goku should not be stronger than them at Super Saiyan. Uub should also be significantly stronger than all of them, yet gets taken out faster than Vegeta. These are plotholes, and again, I'm someone who really enjoys the show.

However, I will say that outside of the Super 17 arc, the show is fairly constant and free of errors. That's the only one that's particularly plagued, what with its strength and afterlife conundrums. So if you can turn your brain off for six solid episodes of "What the fuck?", you shouldn't be otherwise bothered.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

Goku should not be stronger than them at Super Saiyan. Uub should also be significantly stronger than all of them, yet gets taken out faster than Vegeta. These are plotholes, and again, I'm someone who really enjoys the show.

However, I will say that outside of the Super 17 arc, the show is fairly constant and free of errors. That's the only one that's particularly plagued, what with its strength and afterlife conundrums.

Yes, it was a plothole. I'm not going to pretend that Dragon Ball GT doesn't have any. But that's not going to stop me from liking the show. If that was the case, then I wouldn't like Dragon Ball Z or the movies. I agree with you about the Super #17 arc. Easily my least favourite arc in Dragon Ball GT.

[Bussani]

However, I will say that outside of the Super 17 arc, the show is fairly constant and free of errors. That's the only one that's particularly plagued, what with its strength and afterlife conundrums. So if you can turn your brain off for six solid episodes of "What the fuck?", you shouldn't be otherwise bothered.

That's definitely the most plagued saga, but there are plenty of other parts that feel poorly thought out. Characters forget that they can fly or go Super Saiyan whenever it's convenient. Some truck steals their ship and Goku can't teleport to it--okay, I can live with that. But they can see them in the distance. What's stopping them from just flying over there? They can't catch up with a truck now? Then they spend an episode fighting giant space worms, which must be incredibly strong to give them that much trouble. Then Goku has lots of trouble with someone "stronger than Buu", but seemingly as soon as the writers are bored of him, they defeat him without any trouble (or even Super Saiyan) at all. The evil dragon arc is probably has the least head-scratchers. I wouldn't even call these "plotholes"; they're just lazy writing.

Well, I certainly haven't heard those explanations.

I feel like people have already explained them in this thread using their own words, but okay.

"GT makes no sense". Bullshit.

"The story is random". Bullshit.

See above. The story is "random" in that it does whatever it wants, even if it doesn't make sense or is inconsistent. Characters are as strong, weak, smart or stupid as the plot requires at the time. In some cases (as we've agree, mostly in the Super 17 arc) it even contradicts other pieces of filler, let alone the manga. There are also parts in the black star dragon ball arc that feel messy. First this guy's the bad guy, then that guy's the bad guy, then it turns out his whip was the real bad guy. Admittedly this is probably more a case of poor execution than poor concept.

In the end, it always felt like the manga had a certain logic about it. This guy was this strong/skilled, these guys were this strong/skilled--we got a general idea of what they were capable of. In GT things just feel much more up in the air, like anything can happen just because. At times it doesn't even seem to matter if they're Super Saiyan or not.

"The characters got screwed". Bullshit. All of the characters acted how they normally did in Dragon Ball Z.

If you changed that to "characters acted how they normally did in filler" then I'd agree. And that makes sense when you think about it, but that doesn't mean we have to like it. I prefer the manga to the anime, so it kind of makes sense that I wouldn't see "it's just like the anime" as a good thing. Besides that, I think what people mean by "the characters got screwed" is "they made them disproportionately weak to Goku and screwed them out of screen time."

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

See above. The story is "random" in that it does whatever it wants, even if it doesn't make sense or is inconsistent. Characters are as strong, weak, smart or stupid as the plot requires at the time. In some cases (as we've agree, mostly in the Super 17 arc) it even contradicts other pieces of filler, let alone the manga.

The story doesn't do whatever it wants. You're implying that the story of a fictional cartoon show has a mind of it's own and can do as it pleases. No. The writers control the story. For Dragon Ball Z, it was Akira Toriyama. For Dragon Ball GT, it was the writers at Toei.


I agree with you, though. Characters got stronger or sometimes weaker depending on the plot in Dragon Ball GT (their personalities didn't change, however). This is called a plot device. And newsflash, Dragon Ball Z has them too. In fact, a lot of Anime have them too.


Don't you think it was a little bit coincidental that Gokū just happened to become a Super Saiyan in the fight against Freeza? What if it wasn't his time to become a Super Saiyan, or if he simply couldn't become one in the first place?


Yes, character's powers are sometimes inconsistant or weak compared Gokū to in Dragon Ball GT. I'm not denying that. But that's hardly a reason for calling the show rubbish.

[Kid Buu]

I liked it despite its flaws., even through I still don't get the Super 17 arc though. Also, I never met a DB fan that didnt like Blue Velvet or Dan Dan.

Does anyone else think the last dragon that Goku killed with the Genki Dama looked a bit like Dabura?

[Senzu_Bean]

This is called a plot device. And newsflash, Dragon Ball Z has them too.

LOL No! You don't see the Artificial Humans being weaker than Freeza and Vegeta all happy not going Super Saiyan just to not kill them and having an even fight; You don't see Piccolo being stronger than Vegeta in episode n and after one episode Vegeta is magically stronger than Piccolo; You don't see someone as strong as Majin Buu, which was the strongest being in the entire freaking universe and beyond, struggling to fight an animal; etc. etc. etc.

Nobody is accusing GT for making Goku going Super Saiyan 4. That is what a plot device is. Plot-holes, inconsistencies, non-logical events aren't plot devices. People accuse how non-logical compared to the original work Super Saiyan 4 is.

Like I said above you can like GT for all I care but try to make the show logical and free of plot-holes just make you look bad.

[Bussani]

The story doesn't do whatever it wants. You're implying that the story of a fictional cartoon show has a mind of it's own and can do as it pleases. No. The writers control the story. For Dragon Ball Z, it was Akira Toriyama. For Dragon Ball GT, it was the writers at Toei.

I think you're ignoring the point to quibble over semantics here.

I agree with you, though. Characters got stronger or sometimes weaker depending on the plot in Dragon Ball GT. This is called a plot device. And newsflash, Dragon Ball Z has them too. In fact, a lot of Anime have them too.


Don't you think it was a little bit coincidental that Gokū just happened to become a Super Saiyan in the fight against Freeza? What if it wasn't his time to become a Super Saiyan, or if he simply couldn't become one in the first place?

That's not even remotely the same thing. You either ignored what I said or just want to be difficult. Being inconsistent is not a plot device--it's bad writing. I mean, it's creative writing 101. Your story can be as insane and unrealistic (by real world standards) as you want so long as it's consistent within itself, but if you lose that internal inconsistency, the audience's willing suspension of disbelief may suffer.

(their personalities didn't change, however)

Toei-Goku and manga-Goku feel like different characters to me. It's jarring to go from the manga to GT. Hell, I feel the same way watching filler, but it's much more obvious if you watch GT after having only read the manga recently.

Pan changing makes sense since she was only 4 last time we saw her, but that doesn't mean I have to like what they decided to change her into. They basically turned her into a mini version of filler-Chichi.

Vegeta I actually liked. Shame he's practically the Kuririn of the show.

Yes, character's powers are sometimes inconsistant or weak compared Gokū to in Dragon Ball GT. I'm not denying that. But that's hardly a reason for calling the show rubbish.

For the sake of argument, what would be enough to call a show rubbish in your book?

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

That's not even remotely the same thing. You either ignored what I said or just want to be difficult. Being inconsistent is not a plot device--it's bad writing. I mean, it's creative writing 101. Your story can be as insane and unrealistic (by real world standards) as you want so long as it's consistent within itself, but if you lose that internal inconsistency, the audience's willing suspension of disbelief may suffer.

I agree with you. Dragon Ball GT has some inconsistencies in regards to characters' strengths. Again, I still don't see how that makes Dragon Ball GT a bad show. I personally do get annoyed when I pick up on those strength inconsistencies, but I don't think too much about them and it doesn't detract from the enjoyment of the show for me.

Toei-Goku and manga-Goku feel like different characters to me.

Really? To me, they're both the same ol' Gokū.

For the sake of argument, what would be enough to call a show rubbish in your book?

A show with a bad plot, which I feel Dragon Ball GT does not have.

Like I said above you can like GT for all I care but try to make the show logical and free of plot-holes just make you look bad.

I never once said that Dragon Ball GT was logical and free of plotholes. What I'm trying to say is, Dragon Ball Z is guilty of both those things as well.

[Senzu_Bean]

I never once said that Dragon Ball GT was logical and free of plotholes. What I'm trying to say is, Dragon Ball Z is guilty of both those things as well.

Are you actually comparing GT with Z? You can't compare the two! Unless you're comparing GT to Fake Namek or Garlick Jr. both shows don't have comparison.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

I never once said that Dragon Ball GT was logical and free of plotholes. What I'm trying to say is, Dragon Ball Z is guilty of both those things as well.

Are you actually comparing GT with Z? You can't compare the two! Unless you're comparing GT to Fake Namek or Garlick Jr. both shows don't have comparison.

They do. Yes, Dragon Ball GT has some plotholes and is illogical. I'm not denying that. What I'm saying is, Dragon Ball Z also has plotholes and is illogical to a certain extent. Just because Dragon Ball GT has a few plotholes and inconsistencies with characters' Battle Powers, doesn't mean it's a crap show. If that's the case, then wouldn't the movies be considered bad (which have ten times as many plotholes as Dragon Ball GT)?

[Bussani]

I agree with you. Dragon Ball GT has some inconsistencies in regards to characters' strengths. Again, I still don't see how that makes Dragon Ball GT a bad show. I personally do get annoyed when I pick up on those strength inconsistencies, but I don't think too much about them and it doesn't detract from the enjoyment of the show for me.

For the sake of argument, what would be enough to call a show rubbish in your book?

A show with a bad plot, which I feel Dragon Ball GT does not have.

Maybe you just have lower standards than some people? I mean, a good plot is nice, but I'd like some good execution to go along with it. Heck, I explained the plot of Dragon Ball Evolution to someone who'd read the manga, and I had to stop at the end and say: "You know, just describing it like this makes it sound good, but trust me, it's not."

That said, I'm not actually one of the people who hates GT.

Just because Dragon Ball GT has a few plotholes and inconsistencies with characters' Battle Powers, doesn't mean it's a crap show. If that's the case, then wouldn't the movies be considered bad (which have ten times as many plotholes as Dragon Ball GT)?

I'd put the movies in the same category as GT, personally. Mildly enjoyable at times, but lazily written and often not very well put together.

Anyway, I don't know why you expect people to have such great answers for disliking GT. Your reasons for liking it are pretty subjective themselves, and the fact that you do like it means that you'll never see the other side's reasons as very valid.

[NeoKING]

I love how everyone likes to use the whole "Rildo killed by three base Kamehamehas" counter-argument to say that GT sucks but they conveniently leave out the fact that that wasn't even the real General Rildo in the first place, hence the easy death. Good job guys.

I also love how everyone likes to use the argument saying "The other characters dont do anything11!!!111!" when it's obvious and shown in numerous scenes that most of the Z-fighters have settled down in their lives and are done with all the fighting, seeing how they aren't in their prime anymore and the Earth became incredibly peaceful. Welcome to Dragon Ball GT; The only anime where the fans actually hate it for sensible character development.

The only characters who deserve to be incredibly strong are Goku and Oob because they've been training constantly for years. And just because Oob was supposed to be the "new protector of the Earth" doesn't mean he's stronger than Goku, or anyone else. Goku just showed him how to use his powers. Goku is a man with years of experience under his belt, and when you spend your years training against a reincarnation of Majin Boo, you tend to get incredibly strong. Hence the reason only Oob and Goku were the last lines of defense against Baby, while literally everyone else on Earth got too lax and didn't see Baby's ambush coming and got taken over.

[Bussani]

I love how everyone likes to use the whole "Rildo killed by three base Kamehamehas" counter-argument to say that GT sucks but they conveniently leave out the fact that that wasn't even the real General Rildo in the first place, hence the easy death. Good job guys.

1) He wasn't real because Baby came out of him...?
2) Even if that's the case, shouldn't Goku, Pan and Trunks have thought they'd need more than that to beat him? They just shot him and flew off without even questioning it. "Oh, that stronger than Buu guy? Yeah we just tossed some shots at him lazily and left without even looking back, even though he was coming right at our ship."

I also love how everyone likes to use the argument saying "The other characters dont do anything11!!!111!" when it's obvious and shown in numerous scenes that most of the Z-fighters have settled down in their lives and are done with all the fighting, seeing how they aren't in their prime anymore and the Earth became incredibly peaceful. Welcome to Dragon Ball GT; The only anime where the fans actually hate it for sensible character development.

I also love how people think that pointing out one fault completely sums up why someone doesn't like the show. But yes, if you don't want to watch the Goku show, then GT probably isn't for you.

11!!!111!

Mature.

The only characters who deserve to be incredibly strong are Goku and Oob because they've been training constantly for years. And just because Oob was supposed to be the "new protector of the Earth" doesn't mean he's stronger than Goku, or anyone else. Goku just showed him how to use his powers. Goku is a man with years of experience under his belt, and when you spend your years training against a reincarnation of Majin Boo, you tend to get incredibly strong. Hence the reason only Oob and Goku were the last lines of defense against Baby, while literally everyone else on Earth got too lax and didn't see Baby's ambush coming and got taken over.

You can be as logical as you want about it, but that won't make me think it's good that no one else gets to do anything.

[Senzu_Bean]

If that's the case, then wouldn't the movies be considered bad (which have ten times as many plotholes as Dragon Ball GT)?

No, they don't. The movies have inconsistencies when you compare them with the original work. GT on the other hand is inconsistent even with itself. The movies are above filler, when GT is even under filler. It goes like this:

Manga - Anime - Movies - Filler - ...

DBGT

That said, I'm not actually one of the people who hates GT.

Neither I do. I don't care about GT. What I don't like is people trying to put GT at pair with the original work.

I love how everyone likes to use the whole "Rildo killed by three base Kamehamehas" counter-argument to say that GT sucks but they conveniently leave out the fact that that wasn't even the real General Rildo in the first place, hence the easy death. Good job guys.

That is why Bebi-Vegeta is weaker than the real Vegeta... wait!

[NeoKING]

Yeah, I guess we're all forgetting that this same immature Baby got blasted by 3 blasts and was seemingly put out of commission the very moment he started up. This same immature Baby took over Rildo and still got taken care of with a few blasts, you know, seeing how was still a baby at the time. He still survived. In the early episodes where Baby first appeared it was obvious that he wasn't very strong - or at least know how to control his power, but he was very resilient. He gets stronger with every host he takes over, hence the numerous times he flees when the heroes corner him at first.

Btw, what's up with people thinking Goku, Pan, and Trunks should have LEFT the ship in the process of blasting off just to go back down to the planet and fight Rildo, who was basically invincible on M2? Common sense much? They had to jet, so obviously they're gonna get the hell outta there.

Comparing Baby when he first appeared to what he became by the time he arrived on Earth/after taking over numerous hosts in space is like comparing Goku in the beginning of the Dragon Ball series to Goku by the end of the Freeza saga. So yeah, the little smart remark about Vegeta>Baby Vegeta at the time is pretty moot.

It's funny, because the way you people talk on and on about all these BS reasons as to why GT isn't a very entertaining series is either:

1. Pure BS.
2. BS with a spice of hypocrisy on it.
3. Just statements that they can't even back up properly that makes one think that they never even watched GT to enjoy it but only watched it to find inconsistencies and plot holes.
4. That they did enjoy the show but are just riding bandwagons because they feel dumb for not noticing the plot holes and stuff.

Regardless of how much you're hardcore Toriyama-only opinions are, Dragon Ball GT is actually a very enjoyable show and saying that it's a downright horrible show, or not even a decent side-story are nothing but attempts at making hyperboles.

[Rocketman]

I also love how everyone likes to use the argument saying "The other characters dont do anything11!!!111!" when it's obvious and shown in numerous scenes that most of the Z-fighters have settled down in their lives and are done with all the fighting, seeing how they aren't in their prime anymore and the Earth became incredibly peaceful. Welcome to Dragon Ball GT; The only anime where the fans actually hate it for sensible character development.

I agree for everybody except Vegeta. It's character derailing in his case. In the Buu arc, Goku says Vegeta trained even harder than he did and Vegeta warns Gohan against letting yourself get soft in peace time.

It makes no sense for Vegeta to loaf off EXCEPT as a way to cut him down so ~GOKU~ can shine all the brighter.