.

[Savage68]

As lash said, we never saw how Gotenks fared. All we know is that Fat Boo beat him up and he ran away.

We also know that Vegeta couldn't even defend himself properly and would've died had he not been aided, and Gotenks was at least thought to have "a chance." No one less than Super Saiyan 3 Goku would be thought to have a chance against Buu.

[Piccolo Daimao]

As lash said, we never saw how Gotenks fared. All we know is that Fat Boo beat him up and he ran away.

We also know that Vegeta couldn't even defend himself properly and would've died had he not been aided, and Gotenks was at least thought to have "a chance." No one less than Super Saiyan 3 Goku would be thought to have a chance against Buu.

We know that Vegeta was powerful enough to at least do some damage to Boo. As for Gotenks' chance against Boo...I'm gonna pull out the gag card and say it was a set-up for the gag of Gotenks wobbly returning to God's Palace all beaten-up.

[Savage68]

Nope, because if anything, it'd only prove my point even further.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Nope, because if anything, it'd only prove my point even further.

Nope...to what? The gag card?

All I'm saying is that I don't think it's as clear-cut as you guys are making out, when the whole thing is very vague anyway. I could easily make the argument that Kuririn was only confident that Gotenks had a chance against Boo because Gotenks was so confident himself, and we know that characters can occasionally neglect their ki-sensing at times.

[Savage68]

Nope...to what? The gag card?

My response was clearer before you edited your post, so, yeah.

I could easily make the argument that Kuririn was only confident that Gotenks had a chance against Boo because Gotenks was so confident himself, and we know that characters can occasionally neglect their ki-sensing at times.

You would intentionally play Devil's Advocate and assume that Krillin was talking out of his ass (although there's 0 reason indicating this), instead of, for once, taking a stance on one of the Buu arc's many follys? You can "easily make an argument" in support of this, sure, but that doesn't mean the argument made will be a particularly good one.

[dbgtFO]

Gotenks surviving the fight with Buu is the same as Kaioshin surviving against him. Kaioshin managed to escape twice, so I guess Kaioshin is on Majin Vegeta's level...

You would intentionally play Devil's Advocate and assume that Krillin was talking out of his ass (although there's 0 reason indicating this), instead of, for once, taking a stance on one of the Buu arc's many follys? You can "easily make an argument" in support of this, sure, but that doesn't mean the argument made will be a particularly good one.

Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P12.5
Context: After Gotenks takes off, saying he'll beat Boo
Kuririn: “He-he’s pretty haughty, but just maybe he re-really will be able to take care of [Boo]…”
Yamcha: “Ye-yeah…He sure seemed pretty confident…”

Yamcha continues Krillin's statement with saying that Gotenks seemed confident.
They don't necessarily have to be talking about his power, because Gotenks is a gag character just as much as Mr. Satan is.

[Kaboom]

So they were only (or at least primarily) judging Gotenks' supposed effectiveness against Boo just because of how Gotenks was acting, not so much because of his actual power? That's interesting.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there still doubt about whether even Super Saiyan Gotenks could do the job?

[Piccolo Daimao]

I could easily make the argument that Kuririn was only confident that Gotenks had a chance against Boo because Gotenks was so confident himself, and we know that characters can occasionally neglect their ki-sensing at times.

You would intentionally play Devil's Advocate and assume that Krillin was talking out of his ass (although there's 0 reason indicating this), instead of, for once, taking a stance on one of the Buu arc's many follys? You can "easily make an argument" in support of this, sure, but that doesn't mean the argument made will be a particularly good one.

I wasn't saying Kuririn was talking out of his ass. I'm saying he could have been going by Gotenks' confidence and give himself false hope that he could actually defeat Boo.

But whatever. I am just playing devil's advocate and you make a fair point.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there still doubt about whether even Super Saiyan Gotenks could do the job?

Goku said that it was a gamble, but even still, I don't think Goku would hold back from killing Boo with SSj3 and put all his trust into the kids if he didn't think SSj Gotenks wasn't at least stronger than the SSj2s.

[Savage68]

Gotenks surviving the fight with Buu is the same as Kaioshin surviving against him. Kaioshin managed to escape twice, so I guess Kaioshin is on Majin Vegeta's level...

I never said that Gotenks was on Majin Vegeta's level at all. I believe he's easily in the Super Saiyan 2 tier, though.

Yamcha continues Krillin's statement with saying that Gotenks seemed confident.

Yamcha isn't Krillin, and moreover isn't dumb enough to say: "Yeah, Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta got his ass handed to his face, but because this new fusion warrior is confident in himself, he can win! Despite being severely underpowered..." His interpretations of Gotenks' power have nothing to do with Krillin's, as Krillin's comments are the only ones that matter.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there still doubt about whether even Super Saiyan Gotenks could do the job?

Piccolo doubted SSJ Gotenks' remaining fusion time.

[Kaboom]

Goku said that it was a gamble, but even still, I don't think Goku would hold back from killing Boo with SSj3 and put all his trust into the kids if he didn't think SSj Gotenks wasn't at least stronger than the SSj2s.

That would have to be the case if he thought there was even a chance. But since he's never performed Fusion himself, only seen it performed by others, he can really only guess. But if he can estimate, then he has to be taking Super Saiyan into account. Because if he projected that a base-level Fusion of the boys could measure up to Boo... then it sure as hell wouldn't be a "gamble" in any way since they have access to Super Saiyan as well.

Piccolo doubted SSJ Gotenks' remaining fusion time.

I meant beforehand, when Super Gotenks first fused. Piccolo had some line like, "we'll see" or something, which might have been changed by Viz or something. I oughta check Herms' new thread.

[dbgtFO]

Gotenks surviving the fight with Buu is the same as Kaioshin surviving against him. Kaioshin managed to escape twice, so I guess Kaioshin is on Majin Vegeta's level...

I never said that Gotenks was on Majin Vegeta's level at all. I believe he's easily in the Super Saiyan 2 tier, though.

It wasn't aimed at you specifically, it's just to those who say, that you have to be at a certain level of strength to survive something, when the whole scene was clearly a set up for a gag.

Yamcha continues Krillin's statement with saying that Gotenks seemed confident.

Yamcha isn't Krillin, and moreover isn't dumb enough to say: "Yeah, Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta got his ass handed to his face, but because this new fusion warrior is confident in himself, he can win! Despite being severely underpowered..." His interpretations of Gotenks' power have nothing to do with Krillin's, as Krillin's comments are the only ones that matter.

It's just like Piccolo being confident in base Gotenks being able to take Super Buu, which he couldn't.
It's a gag.

[Savage68]

It's just like Piccolo being confident in base Gotenks being able to take Super Buu, which he couldn't.
It's gag.

Uh, Piccolo got ahead of himself because he sensed Gotenks' power, and sensed that it was a huge increase from what it once was. Krillin got ahead of himself because he sensed Gotenks' power, too. The only indisputable fact farted out of the latter scenario was that Gotenks stood no chance against Majin Buu, only, in his base form.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Goku said that it was a gamble, but even still, I don't think Goku would hold back from killing Boo with SSj3 and put all his trust into the kids if he didn't think SSj Gotenks wasn't at least stronger than the SSj2s.

That would have to be the case if he thought there was even a chance. But since he's never performed Fusion himself, only seen it performed by others, he can really only guess. But if he can estimate, then he has to be taking Super Saiyan into account. Because if he projected that a base-level Fusion of the boys could measure up to Boo... then it sure as hell wouldn't be a "gamble" in any way since they have access to Super Saiyan as well.

I wasn't saying base Gotenks could measure up to Boo. I was saying that I think SSj Gotenks would have to be at least stronger than the SSj2s if Goku held back from destroying Boo and was putting all his trust into the kids, and as we know, SSj2 Majin Vegeta was defeated by Boo.

[Savage68]

Goku even said that the fighter waiting for Buu would be stronger than himself.

[Kaboom]

I wasn't saying base Gotenks could measure up to Boo.

Nor was I suggesting you did. I was just kinda self-speculating out loud.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Goku even said that the fighter waiting for Buu would be stronger than himself.

Wasn't he just 1) stalling time and/or 2) bluffing to get Bobbodi and Boo to not destroy the world anymore?

[Savage68]

He was, overall, but he wasn't necessarily lying about a Super Saiyan Trunks / Goten fusion being stronger than himself. He's well aware of the power increase that fusion-dancing yields and he knows the limits of the boys' strength. At the very least, SSJ Gotenks in still in Goku's ballpark, because Goku otherwise wouldn't have been so confident in leaving the world's fate to anyone significantly weaker.

[jackjack]

Goku: “With these two, if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat him within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”

Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.”

It was a gamble because they hadn't done that at the time.

I meant beforehand, when Super Gotenks first fused. Piccolo had some line like, "we'll see" or something, which might have been changed by Viz or something. I oughta check Herms' new thread.

Piccolo: “…Yeah…Your ki really is absolutely incredible, but how about your movement?...Show me a little”

I doubt he would state that if they were nowhere near Goku, after being told they would become the strongest.

[p123]

Yes, I would think Base Gotenks surviving gag or not is a major feat. It is highly unlikely that Majin Vegeta/Kaioshin/Gohan/etc would have survived one on one with Buu. Vegeta saves Kaioshin's butt. Goten/Trunks save Majin Vegeta. Who saved Gotenks? Himself that's it. Even Dabura who seemingly survived, probably only did so of the benefit that Gohan/Kaioshin were there for distractions. Remember, Gotenks is rolling solo, with no one but himself. Him being able to return from his fight under his own power is a huge feat. Now, you can debate it was a gag, or that Gotenks hid his ki somehow and escaped and would not prove Gotenks being superior to the others, the current line of thought that Gotenks is stronger than everyone shown so far except for Fat Buu/SSJ3 Goku is 100% plausible, and probably the simplest most easiest line of thought. Question is, why wouldn't he be stronger? I'm all for Gotenks being overconfident, but he is made up of two kids who have shown severely impressive ki sensing abilities. You gotta question why is Gotenks so confident? Sure he is a jackass, but there has to be something that makes him confident you know? Not to mention, Kuririn of all people backing him up. Sure Kuririn could have let Gotenks confidence blind him , but from the easiest simplest point of view, Kuririn underestimating Buu who is stated to have an abnormal ki, and who Kuririn later underestimates Super Buu, would be the best line of reasoning don't you think?

Characters are generally confident for a reason, especially when they aren't villians. Villians are generally the ones who blatanly disregard their ki sensing abilities and just think they are the strongest.


You rarely see the Z senshi overestimating themselves. Some point to Vegeta vs Freeza, which Freeza had to increase his speed to combat Vegeta. That would suggest that Vegeta was probably around Initial True Form Freeza's speed, or else Freeza would have never needed to up it you know?

USSJ Vegeta vs Perfect Cell, Vegeta knows Cell is toying with him, and tells Cell to come at him with his real power. Sounds like he knows what's going on. Vegeta attempting to kick Cell is a situation in a way that is well, what do you want him to do? Not fight? Quit? As you can see Vegeta immediatley goes to Final Flash and taunts Cell to taking it head on . Seems like Vegeta is very well aware that Cell is his superior.


Vegeta is well aware that Majin Buu is his superior after Majin Buu's first power up. He goes into the Buu fight with thoughts that he will die, and tell's Buu he will bring them all with him implying he knew he was going to die.


So Vegeta, who many claim to be the biggest retard and blinded by being overpowered, shows some clear signs that he is fully aware of being overpowered. I think the claims are drastically overstated, and not really accurate.


Truth is, the Z senshi are hardly ever off about each other or themselves. Now I could understand if Trunks was say wrong about Vegeta=Goku or that Goten was wrong about Gohan > Gotenks, but they weren't. They were fully aware of those ki's so why not others? Point being, Gotenks is ridicolously confident, but there must be a reason for that confidence.


Base Gotenks Pre Rosat being Majin Vegeta's superior by a good margin, IMO , makes everything just fit logically.

[dbgtFO]

All there is going for Gotenks' power (Pre RoSAT) being comparable to anyone is just small hints(except Super Saiyan Gotenks thinking he could beat Fat Buu with noone contradicting that statement), which are parts of gag scenes anyways. Goku saying that he will become stronger than him is a guess and was that actually confirmed??

We don't get a direct statement about how he compares to the other good guys, so when people say that he is on Majin Vegeta's level or on SSJ 3 Goku's level it's nothing more than interpretation.

It's first when he turns SSJ 3 that Piccolo actually confirms, Buu hasn't fought anyone as strong as Gotenks before meaning that SSJ 3 Goku is weaker than SSJ 3 Gotenks, which is further confirmed with Goku admitting Super Buu is his superior.

Yes, I would think Base Gotenks surviving gag or not is a major feat. It is highly unlikely that Majin Vegeta/Kaioshin/Gohan/etc would have survived one on one with Buu. Vegeta saves Kaioshin's butt. Goten/Trunks save Majin Vegeta. Who saved Gotenks? Himself that's it.

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Kaioshin: “I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…