Goku's true boost in strength when becoming Super Saiyan?

[Kaboom]

That's the mystery, isn't it?

But since they were all hiding their Ki, then it has to be something other than Dabra simply sensing it.

[Piccolo Daimao]

That's the mystery, isn't it?

But since they were all hiding their Ki, then it has to be something other than Dabra simply sensing it.

I think it was Dabra using his magical demonic powers to sense that Goku, Gohan and Vegeta were hiding power within them (being Super Saiyan). But obviously he didn't feel the full extent of their power, since he still believed Pui Pui and Yakon could kill them.

[Bussani]

It's probably just experience/instinct. It isn't always about having some magical energy sensing power. If you're skilled enough, you can make an educated guess. Like Goku guessing what Cell might be capable of without even seeing him fight, or Kuririn knowing that the Namekians were concealing their true strength, a fact Freeza's men were blind to.

[Piccolo Daimao]

It's probably just experience/instinct. It isn't always about having some magical energy sensing power. If you're skilled enough, you can make an educated guess. Like Goku guessing what Cell might be capable of without even seeing him fight, or Kuririn knowing that the Namekians were concealing their true strength, a fact Freeza's men were blind to.

Perhaps. It could be either.

[Son_Gohan]

There really is too much contradictory evidence to them being able to sense Ki on their own.

I've always held the theory that Babidi, having expected Spopovich & Yamu to be tracked by Kaioshin, had used his crystal ball to discover the group and the energy measurement device to determine their energy levels before they had suppressed themselves on the rocks. We already see the crystal ball in his hand after he enters the ship, so it is likely he had used it prior.

[Piccolo Daimao]

There really is too much contradictory evidence to them being able to sense Ki on their own.

I've always held the theory that Babidi, having expected Spopovich & Yamu to be tracked by Kaioshin, had used his crystal ball to discover the group and the energy measurement device to determine their energy levels before they had suppressed themselves on the rocks. We already see the crystal ball in his hand after he enters the ship, so it is likely he had used it prior.

But why would Dabra mention that he could sense three of them had great power if he already knew from Bobbodi's kiri meter?

[Son_Gohan]

But why would Dabra mention that he could sense three of them had great power if he already knew from Bobbodi's kiri meter?

If this is the quote you are referring to...

Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.1-3
Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co.
Dabra: “Seems they’re trying to hide from us…In total…there are 7. We can’t use Kaioshin and Kibito’s energy…But 3 of them seem to have marvelous energy…”
Babidi: “Looks like it. It seems that we’ll get more than enough energy from just those 3…Kuhihihi…To think that we’d be able to revive Majin Boo so quickly…”

He doesn't actually say he is sensing them right then and there, it could be predetermined knowledge which is only provided clarity for the sake of the reader in what is yet to come.

[dbgtFO]

Due to this:

Chapter: 346 (DBZ 152), P14.3
Piccolo: “Commit this to memory: when we fight, we amplify what you guys call ‘energy’, causing it to explode. That’s why the energy you stole from me earlier doesn’t matter…”

I believe this:

When fighting No.20, Piccolo does talk about how he can make his energy explode when he fights, so that the energy 20 stole from Piccolo when he was just standing around is insignificant. I wonder if maybe that was an ability he gained from training with Kaio. Like it was either some proto-Kaio-ken that was the best Piccolo could manage to learn, or just the opposite, that he actually mastered the Kaio-ken so much that it's become simply a natural part of how he fights rather than a separate technique. I also tend to think that guys like Kaioshin or Boo did something similar to the latter, where they didn't know the Kaio-ken per say but instinctively mastered its basic principles, so that formally learning the Kaio-ken wouldn't really do them any good. But that's mostly because I don't like to think that Dabra could learn the Kaio-ken and beat up Super Saiyan 3 Goku, or something like that.

However, everyone(Earthlings, Saiyans etc.) are able to do it, since Piccolo says "we."

For me personally, it solves all the problems I have with:

Future Gohan vs. SSJ Future Trunks
Future Trunks vs. Imperfect Cell
Piccolo vs. Base Saiyans
3000 vs. 800
Base Gotenks vs. Majin SSJ 2 Vegeta

Because SSJ is a 50 times multiplier of your normal form, but they only end up 5 times stronger, than their bases' amplified max using the above theory(if ki explosion multiplies your power by 10).

Also @Son_Gohan, I really like that idea.

[jackjack]

Some rough estimates (hastily done)
Base - 3
SSJ - 150 (50x Base)

Goku improves 50x by obtaining FPSSJ
Base - 150
FPSSJ - 7500 (still 50x Base)
SSJ2 - 15000 (2x FPSSJ)
SSJ3 - 60000 (4x SSJ2)

Maximum ssj power correlates with base power
SSJ3/FPSSJ = 60000/7500 = 8x (Base gets the same boost)
FPSSJ/Base (8x150) = 7500/1200 = 6x (50x drops to 6x just like that, eh?)

[beast mode]

My own thoughts on how it works:

Goku: 3
Goku (becoming Super Saiyan, against Freeza): 3+147=150 (happens to be a 50x multiplication of his previous strength.)
Goku (after becoming a Super Saiyan): Goku (Base, minimum: 1) < Goku (Super Saiyan, maximum: 150)

There is no way to know how much more powerful each of these states are, except that they are stronger than whatever is above them. You fully contain whatever your max power is within you, becoming 'Super Saiyan' or 'Super Saiyan 2' or something is just unleashing more of it. You do not have a 'base' form that is then multiplied by something for type of the type of Super Saiyan transformation you become. Think sort of like how Freeza bulks up when using 100% versus 50%. Goku using Super Saiyan 3 in the Buu arc is his 100% with all his other transformations falling somewhere below that.

-Super Saiyan (Future Trunks, Gohan (in RoSaT and during Buu arc,) Goku, Goten, Trunks, and Vegeta) = BP of around 150,000,000, in order to become stronger you have to probably become Super Saiyan Stage 2 or a Full-Power Super Saiyan.
-'Full-Power' Super Saiyan (possibly Goku and Vegeta after 3 years training in preparation of the artificial humans.) (May not exist, I don't know, did Goku say he became stronger during those 3 years?)
-Super Saiyan Stage 2 (Future Trunks and Vegeta after coming out of the RoSaT)
-'Full-Power' Super Saiyan Stage 2 (Future Trunks and Vegeta after coming out of the RoSaT a second time)
-Full-Power Super Saiyan (Gohan and Goku after coming out the the RoSaT, maybe Vegeta in Buu arc)
-Super Saiyan 2 (Gohan against Cell)
-'Full-Power' Super Saiyan 2 (Goku and Vegeta)
-Super Saiyan 3 (Goku)

note: Full-Power implies the limit that can be reached without gaining access to a new form as been reached, 'Full-Power' means that it could be at the limit or is on its way to its limit.

[hleV]

It's been stated that Super Saiyan multiplies user's power/strength/whatever 50 times.

SSJ definitely multiplies power, not that it happened to be 50 times stronger than base.

[Herms]

What are the odds of him picking the 3 most powerful out of 5 at random?

Hmmm...9.9%?

[beast mode]

It's been stated that Super Saiyan multiplies user's power/strength/whatever 50 times.

SSJ definitely multiplies power, not that it happened to be 50 times stronger than base.

Not in the series itself.

[hleV]

It's been stated that Super Saiyan multiplies user's power/strength/whatever 50 times.

SSJ definitely multiplies power, not that it happened to be 50 times stronger than base.

Not in the series itself.

Why? Only because you don't think it fits? 50x multiplier (which is official) works fine. Unless you're going by anime, which contradicted itself too many times to be worth being discussed about.

[beast mode]

Why? Only because you don't think it fits? 50x multiplier (which is official) works fine. Unless you're going by anime, which contradicted itself too many times to be worth being discussed about.

That anime is just as official as that number.

GT, filler, movies, stickers, toys, cards, video games, Goku's power in kiri, and Toriyama's feeling on what Super Saiyan is while he drew the story are all official too. Everyone just makes a decision for themselves on what aspects of the franchise they are going to accept as legitimate. So as long as there isn't any evidence that Super Saiyan is Kaio-ken times fifty in the comic books themselves, it really doesn't matter to me what some guide books say if something else makes more sense.

[Herms]

So as long as there isn't any evidence that Super Saiyan is Kaio-ken times fifty in the comic books themselves, then it really doesn't matter to me what some guide books say if something else makes more sense.

Well, in the manga Goku uses Kaio-ken x20 and can't beat half-power Freeza, but beats full-power Freeza as a Super Saiyan, implying that Super Saiyan is more than twice as strong as Kaio-ken x20. That's where the guidebooks get the x50 figure to begin with.

[beast mode]

So as long as there isn't any evidence that Super Saiyan is Kaio-ken times fifty in the comic books themselves, then it really doesn't matter to me what some guide books say if something else makes more sense.

Well, in the manga Goku uses Kaio-ken x20 and can't beat half-power Freeza, but beats full-power Freeza as a Super Saiyan, implying that Super Saiyan is more than twice as strong as Kaio-ken x20. That's where the guidebooks get the x50 figure to begin with.

Yeah I know, that's why I've always been suspicious of Super Saiyan being a Kaio-ken times fifty. It seems as if someone at Shueisha thought "Oh Goku's gotta be at least 40 times stronger than he was before, so let's say it's a fifty times multiplication because it gives a nice looking 'x50'." Toriyama seems like he really didn't care.

[Herms]

But it's not like the x50 was pulled from the clear blue sky. It's based on what we actually see and are told in the series about the Kaio-ken.

[Kaboom]

"Super Saiyan is a 50x boost" is repeated in just about every guidebook (even the ones for ever-lovin' GT!) and other similar sources that have anything at all to mention on the matter. There's nothing in the series itself to suggest it ever changed. Even disregarding the numbers aspect, nobody ever says, "Super Saiyan isn't giving us as much power as it used to," or anything of the sort. Even the barely-seen, throwaway Kiri system example is nothing more than a clever little metaphor (the numbers 800 and 3000 have some sort of almost pun-like significance in Japanese meaning "a lot"), and works on a scale that's mysterious and inconclusive. The "extra" information on Kiri in the anime just makes it even less clear.

Sure, think the boost got smaller somehow if you want, but just know that such a stance is backed by nothing and flies directly in the face of several official words to the contrary.

[beast mode]

"Super Saiyan is a 50x boost" is repeated in just about every guidebook (even the ones for ever-lovin' GT!) and other similar sources that have anything at all to mention on the matter. There's nothing in the series itself to suggest it ever changed. Even disregarding the numbers aspect, nobody ever says, "Super Saiyan isn't giving us as much power as it used to," or anything of the sort. Even the barely-seen, throwaway Kiri system example is nothing more than a clever little metaphor (the numbers 800 and 3000 have some sort of almost pun-like significance in Japanese meaning "a lot"), and works on a scale that's mysterious and inconclusive. The "extra" information on Kiri in the anime just makes it even less clear.

Sure, think the boost got smaller somehow if you want, but just know that such a stance is backed by nothing and flies directly in the face of several official words to the contrary.

Vegeta said he couldn't become stronger at some point without becoming a Super Saiyan. If Super Saiyan is a multiplication like Kaio-ken it should be getting higher with time, not smaller. Also, I thought that interview with Akira Toriyama where he says in his opinion it was more like ten times, that fifty times is a bit silly, is indeed a source that has something to mention on the matter.

But it's not like the x50 was pulled from the clear blue sky. It's based on what we actually see and are told in the series about the Kaio-ken.

Is there any evidence that it functions the same way? As in, if you aren't in the Super Saiyan state, that power doesn't exist? No. 20 says it's different. When Gohan completes his training and becomes mystic or ultimate or whatever he's told to try becoming Super Saiyan and the whole point of that exercise was to bring out power he had within him, not multiply what he's already got. Then there's the whole Dabra thing where if it was Kaio-ken x50+ then he shoulda thought Piccolo was the strongest, not Gohan, Goku, or Vegeta.