Pronunciation of "Saiyan"

[Akumaito Beam]

I'm not a mod but I figured I'd just throw this friendly reminder out there to everyone just so nobody accidentally gets in trouble for forgetting about it. The mods seem to not have an issue with this discussion thus far but from my experience if this sort of thing takes over the thread they have their limits. Again just figured I'd toss this out there, I'm not trying to attack anyone or mini-mod. I'm just posting this link as a peer.

http://daizex.fanboyreview.net/viewtopi ... =1&t=11625

[TonyTheTiger]

You say these are cartoons and I'm taking them too seriously? Why do you think I'm the only one doing so? if VegettoEX is going to turn Her'cule into (the H-word) through the word filter (and I don't believe that's just for clarification's sake, either. Why not just use the word filter to modify Her'cule into "Mr. Satan", rather than "(the H-word)"?) , and he's going to let his frustration and annoyance show in his posts, why shouldn't I? He gets all up in arms with emphasis on syllables. If you're going to call me out on it, you should be calling everyone out on it. You say VegettoEX has "strong opinions" and then you turn around and accuse me of "taking it too seriously".

Wha? I didn't say anybody was taking anything "too seriously." I said that I, personally, don't see it as such a big deal when somebody has strong preferences one way or the other. Therefore, I can't relate to any feeling of "frustration" with respect to what people say on the topic of Dragon Ball.

The word filter...I mean now we're really getting way off track here going into general "stuff about Daizex that bugs you" territory. I'd rather not walk that road but I'll say that my own opinion on the matter is that a sticky at the top covering whatever naming conventions are relevant would have much the same effect as the filter and be less intrusive in the process. But that's merely my own personal opinion on the matter. It's not incredibly difficult to bypass the filter when necessary so...whatever. Not a giant issue. Besides, from what I gather (and I'm relatively new here myself so I'm basing this on a cursory understanding), the filter is generally approved of by many of the site's members and was not some kind of tyrannical universal censor imposed by VegettoEX against the will of the populace. And not least of all, to be perfectly fair, to come on a website and proceed to berate the community and owner for their standard practice and how they run things is just plain rude.

I was trying to politely draw the conversation back to naming conventions and pronunciations since that's what I wanted to discuss in this thread in the first place. So I'll end my participation in this tangent with a summation of my experience here:

Daizex is a community made up of people who are very familiar with Dragon Ball and, as a result, have strong opinions on the subject. Most of the community has either a strong preference for the Japanese version or, depending on how you flip it, a strong preference against FUNi's localization. The community is, therefore, generally focused on that aspect first and foremost. Nevertheless, being an outlier on any particular topic does not make a person an outcast. There have been times I've agreed with the "general consensus" or what have you. And there have been times I've taken strong positions in the opposite direction. I've never felt like I've been treated better or worse because of it.

I'm ending it with that. There's nothing more I care to say on the issue.

[Patient-mental]

This conversation is going around in circles. Either you change your vocabulary to incorporate the different words or you can stay lazy and use Americanised versions of the word.

The rules I go with:

- Direct Katakana translation of English word, say normally
e.g. Dragon Ball and not Doragon Booru

- Altered Katakana translation of English word, use Japanese pronunciation, or closest possible.
e.g. Fureeza/Freeza and not Frieza/Freezer

- Strictly Japanese word or non english japanese translated word, use Japanese pronunciation.
Son Goku
Saiyan - "Sighyan" S-eye-yah-n

[Rocketman]

This conversation is going around in circles. Either you change your vocabulary to incorporate the different words or you can stay lazy and use Americanised versions of the word.

- Strictly Japanese word or non english japanese translated word, use Japanese pronunciation.
Son Goku
Saiyan - "Sighyan" S-eye-yah-n

So how do you pronounce 'France' and 'Caesar'? Or does this only apply to Glorious Nippon? Don't be lazy, now!

[Patient-mental]

Fra-ah-nce and See-serr. That might give away my nationality

[Ashura]

For a counterexample to your "Eggman" catastrophe, Princess Toadstool was corrected back to the original Princess Peach back in the mid-90s, and you never hear anyone complain about it.

I guess I should note, I don't think it was a catastrophe; I don't care either which way what they end up calling him. If they're trying to unify a brand globally, then there's going to be some stomped toes. And to me, both names are one and the same.

[B]

So how do you pronounce 'France' and 'Caesar'? Or does this only apply to Glorious Nippon? Don't be lazy, now!

You might have had a point beyond being difficult if the French pronounced it "Frahns" and the rest of the world said "FRAN-keh." But since that's not the case, it's not really comparable the Saiyan/Goku situation.

[roidrage]

Well, when it comes to the topic of this thread, I've made my opinions quite clear, so there's no reason for me to reiterate them.

As for the tangent; I fail to see how being a webmaster makes you beyond real criticism, as long as it's done with respect. And I do respect VegettoEX; I certainly have no questions about the veracity of the information he has provided, only his attitude towards others.

Most of those who disagree with me on this subject cite positive experiences they've had in this community, and I'm glad it's been so much fun for them. My personal experience was rocky on day one alone, and that has helped to color my perception of this community. Not that anyone wants to listen to my pathetic sob stories, I'm just giving some background. I may be overly sensitive, but I didn't arrive at the conclusions I have for no reason, either.

I don't wish to derail this thread any further, so I'm going to stop talking about this subject here. If anyone wants to debate it with me, they can start a thread in Website Discussion.

[VegettoEX]

What's really weird (and bordering on creepy) to me is how you (well, mainly "you" being roidrage) have managed to turn the discussion less about the topic at hand, and more about me, personally.

I mean, I get that I was the one who responded to the topic creator with a ton of stuff and responded a few more times, but I haven't even been in the thick of things for a while (seriously, for pages... and yet I'm "up in arms" over something?) -- it's no longer about "Saiyan" and more about "Man, that VegettoEX guy and the things I think maybe he says or does but I don't actually cite any examples of them other than one example that was actually his wife and not him in an example that I've conceded was a case where I was unable to tell the difference between a stated opinion and fact."

It's a pretty clever diversion ("Well, OK... I'm saying the word wrong, but look at all this other stuff over here!"), but I'm not biting. Other than what I just bit so far in the form of every word above this one.

To bring things back around...

Gaffer and Rach (and also Tony in there) have given some great responses that really sum things up in terms of... well, everything. The one viewpoint I want to respond to (and actually addresses the original topic) is the whole, "Well I know I'm wrong, but I'm still going to say it wrong despite knowing I'm wrong... and really just because."

To me, that's a willful and stubborn display of ignorance, and I can't get behind it any which way. You're certainly entitled to that viewpoint, but we have a clear conflict of ideology that I absolutely will not budge on.

Additionally, if you are unable to parse the difference between an engaged conversation and "grobble grobble up in arms", that is firmly on you to work out.

[Cipher]

"Well I know I'm wrong, but I'm still going to say it wrong despite knowing I'm wrong... and really just because."

To me, that's a willful and stubborn display of ignorance, and I can't get behind it any which way. You're certainly entitled to that viewpoint, but we have a clear conflict of ideology that I absolutely will not budge on.

I'm not exactly arguing against you, but it's less a case of "just because," and more a case of, as TonyTheTiger has said, FUNimation's pronunciation of Saiyan being so ingrained into the culture at large that it's essentially become the English colloquialism, and is therefore subject to all the inaccuracies and strangeness of foreign words in a foreign culture. If it were an obscure term limited to the franchise, I might be more adamant about accuracy. But it's bigger than that, to the point where we essentially have a word that is "Saiya-jin" in the Japanese culture, and "(Say-yan)" in America. I can deal with that, and given the impracticality of having any set rules for translating Dragon Ball terms in the first place (every single fan has some strange idiosyncrasies and hypocrisies with this), it's not particularly egregious.

I think there's an equal bit of "willful ignorance" in pretending the phrase hasn't gone beyond the confines of the series (it has), and is somehow immune to the frequent results of adopting foreign words (it's not). As Rocketman has pointed out, if you're going to insist that "Saiyan" be corrected long after it's entered English lexicon, there are dozens and hundreds of other words that deserve the same. So unless you're outraged every time someone orders "guacamol-ee" instead of "guacamol-ay," it's just a bit of a double standard to insist on this, and definitely just as impractical.

I don't expect or want to start hearing "Say-yan" in the Daizex Podcasts, but please understand that being comfortable with the pronunciation is based on a little more rationale than "just because."

You might have had a point beyond being difficult if the French pronounced it "Frahns" and the rest of the world said "FRAN-keh." But since that's not the case, it's not really comparable the Saiyan/Goku situation.

Actually, this is every bit comparable to the "Saiyan" discussion, and an even larger change than the "Goku" pronunciation. The North American pronunciation of "France" changes the sound of the first vowel entirely, from a long "a" to a short "a," just as FUNimation's "Saiyan" replaces its first vowel with an off pronunciation. That's actually a great example; thanks. At this point though, the short "a" France is simply the North American version of the word, and as long as you're not ignorant as to the original language, it's completely acceptable to go along with it. And while it's everyone's right to use a more accurate version of "Saiyan," that's exactly the situation that word finds itself in now.

And it's not really comparable to the "Goku" situation, because FUNimation's "Goku" retains all of its syllables, and is merely stressed differently to flow with English sentences. This happens to almost every foreign word to enter English lexicon; it's no big deal. You'd have a point if you were discussing the tendency to mispronounce "Son Goku" (Sone Goku) as "Sun Goku" however, where the vowel is changed entirely.

[TonyTheTiger]

The one viewpoint I want to respond to (and actually addresses the original topic) is the whole, "Well I know I'm wrong, but I'm still going to say it wrong despite knowing I'm wrong... and really just because."

To me, that's a willful and stubborn display of ignorance, and I can't get behind it any which way. You're certainly entitled to that viewpoint, but we have a clear conflict of ideology that I absolutely will not budge on.

I want to address this, too. I think "say-an" is a little more complicated a situation than you're giving it credit for. I think of it something like Voltron or Battle of the Planets. A person who grew up with either of those shows have certain expectations for what they understand as being "Voltron" or "Battle of the Planets." And those expectations are going to be different than what they'd expect from GoLion or Gatchaman.

That's why there are actually two separate releases of those shows. Some people want the unadulterated originals but there's enough of an attachment to the re-imaginings that people want them, too. Throw Robotech/Macross in, as well. It's a distinctly different situation than the first two seasons of DBZ, which for the most part are not especially distinguished from subsequent releases, be it because they weren't as popular at the time, they weren't so blatantly different, or what have you. Voltron may be "wrong" in a lot of ways but, to hijack your own phrase, it just is. Voltron has developed a state of being that is, although different from GoLion's, is no less legitimate in the minds of the fans. I think "say-an" falls somewhat in or near that sandbox just like Mortal Kombat's Raiden does.

But, sticking solely with specifically what we call things, a better example might be Chrono Trigger's legendary sword. Is it the Grandleon or the Masamune? Speaking from a hard-lined position of accuracy, it's the Grandleon and always has been. But notice that the PlayStation re-release, the Nintendo DS re-release, Chrono Cross, and absolutely anything related to the game in North America call it the Masamune. I don't think anybody here is so naive to think that subsequent translators do not know what's going on. They know Ted Woolsey changed the name. But there's something preventing them from "fixing" the error/creative license/etc. And I'm certain that's because the connection people feel to the sword as it was named by Woolsey has taken such a drastic turn toward "this is what Chrono is in America" that, well, "Masamune" has become a state of being separate and apart from the state of being that is "Grandleon."

To give even more credence, the DS remake actually has a much more accurate script in every other way. It fixes blatant errors in Woolsey's translation that changed the meanings of sentences. Woolsey's translation is completely thrown out the window...except for the names. That's clearly a very shrewd thing to do.

I think that same thing is what happened to the word "Saiyan."

[Rocketman]

So how do you pronounce 'France' and 'Caesar'? Or does this only apply to Glorious Nippon? Don't be lazy, now!

You might have had a point beyond being difficult if the French pronounced it "Frahns" and the rest of the world said "FRAN-keh." But since that's not the case, it's not really comparable the Saiyan/Goku situation.

No response for 'Caesar', I see.

[B]

What is there to respond to? It's pronounced "See-zer." If you're implying the "second" pronunciation, "say-zahr," you simply remove the first "A."

[Adamant]

The c is meant to be pronounced as k, actually.

[Rocketman]

The c is meant to be pronounced as k, actually.

Indeed, it is "Kaizahr". See also the three-headed dog 'kerberus', the half-man, half-horse 'kentaurs' or the soldiers of Rome called 'kenturions'.

[thedarkuniter]

Sayin' or Sigh-in, I pronounced it both ways. On my videos, I use "sigh-in" and if I talk to some dub fans ( I myself like both versions), I use "sayin'".

[Ashura]

I do have to wonder if Saiyan was one of those things which was changed for confusion reasons, such as Ten becoming Tien.

He's a Super Saiyan...
He's super sighing? What does that mean?

[Herms]

I'm not exactly arguing against you, but it's less a case of "just because," and more a case of, as TonyTheTiger has said, FUNimation's pronunciation of Saiyan being so ingrained into the culture at large that it's essentially become the English colloquialism, and is therefore subject to all the inaccuracies and strangeness of foreign words in a foreign culture. If it were an obscure term limited to the franchise, I might be more adamant about accuracy. But it's bigger than that, to the point where we essentially have a word that is "Saiya-jin" in the Japanese culture, and "(Say-yan)" in America.

Keep in mind though that this isn't America: this is a website on the internet where half the visitors come from outside the
US. And it's a series dedicated to the Japanese version of the franchise in the first place. If I'm in a supermarket in Montana and someone asks me how to pronounce "guacamole", of course I'm not going to give him a lesson in Spanish pronunciation (or Aztec, I guess). But if someone on a forum dedicated to Mexican food, where half the users aren't from the US, asks how to properly pronounce "guacamole", would it make sense to give them the US English answer? Or if I'm on a forum dedicated to Greek mythology in the original Greek, with again half the people from outside the US, and I ask how to properly pronounce "centaur", would it make sense for the people there to treat the soft 'c' pronunciation as an equally appropriate answer as the original Greek one? So here on Daizex, dedicated to the original Japanese version of DB and with half the visitors from outside the US, someone from China asks how to properly pronounce "Saiyan" and Mike explained the Japanese pronunciation, rather than how the word is commonly pronounced in the US.

[roidrage]

I'm not exactly arguing against you, but it's less a case of "just because," and more a case of, as TonyTheTiger has said, FUNimation's pronunciation of Saiyan being so ingrained into the culture at large that it's essentially become the English colloquialism, and is therefore subject to all the inaccuracies and strangeness of foreign words in a foreign culture. If it were an obscure term limited to the franchise, I might be more adamant about accuracy. But it's bigger than that, to the point where we essentially have a word that is "Saiya-jin" in the Japanese culture, and "(Say-yan)" in America.

Keep in mind though that this isn't America: this is a website on the internet where half the visitors come from outside the
US. And it's a series dedicated to the Japanese version of the franchise in the first place. If I'm in a supermarket in Montana and someone asks me how to pronounce "guacamole", of course I'm not going to give him a lesson in Spanish pronunciation (or Aztec, I guess). But if someone on a forum dedicated to Mexican food, where half the users aren't from the US, asks how to properly pronounce "guacamole", would it make sense to give them the US English answer? Or if I'm on a forum dedicated to Greek mythology in the original Greek, with again half the people from outside the US, and I ask how to properly pronounce "centaur", would it make sense for the people there to treat the soft 'c' pronunciation as an equally appropriate answer as the original Greek one? So here on Daizex, dedicated to the original Japanese version of DB and with half the visitors from outside the US, someone from China asks how to properly pronounce "Saiyan" and Mike explained the Japanese pronunciation, rather than how the word is commonly pronounced in the US.

True...but it still seems sort of unreasonable to expect them to carry that pronunciation into actual conversation. Knowledge of the source is always a good thing, but as long as it's acknowledged, I see no problem with continuing to pronounce it as one always has.

[Herms]

True...but it still seems sort of unreasonable to expect them to carry that pronunciation into actual conversation. Knowledge of the source is always a good thing, but as long as it's acknowledged, I see no problem with continuing to pronounce it as one always has.

Yeah, I think Mike crossed a line by concluding his explanation of the Japanese pronunciation with a general swipe at people who pronounce it any other way.