World's Strongest Review-Ocean Group Dub

[Pokewhiz7]

Rukura, just to be curious, where are you from specifically?

He's from Space Portugal. It's Portugal...In SPAAACE!

[Rukura]

How can some say "I just can't read the subs fast enough and enjoy the animation" when so many people do the same and with the subs not in their native language?

Here's the thing. I can fully enjoy watching a show when it's subtitled, but I also feel I can't appreciate the animation completely when there are frames where my attention is removed from where the director intended it to be while I'm reading subtitles. Like it or not, subtitles can derail the director's intent the same as dubs do... you cannot read subtitles without missing 3-to-30 frames here and there. In the end, it comes down to what you'd rather sacrifice. 30 frames might not seem like a lot, but it is in animation. Good animation, at least.

Personally, even on sub-only shows I'll likely rewatch animated sections I feel I didn't get to appreciate fully with subtitles. But then, I love animation itself as an artform, so I study things frame-by-frame from time-to-time. If you have a well animated show, I personally don't care where it came from; I'm probably at least checking out some scenes from it even if I'm not a fan of the genre.

Also, Thank you Agito for your perspective. Rukura, just to be curious, where are you from specifically?

I can certainly understand that perspective. Even more so, if you're trying to take every single detail of animation, I can get why that would be important. (Even if it sounds like in your case, anything audio would secondary to begin with )

However (and maybe all I can speak from is my massive exposure to foreign content, which almost always had subs), I do believe that I can watch something and have to read subtitles and still be able to fully enjoy the animation or show or movie and ocasionally spot some "mistakes" in said animation/scene despite also having to keep up with the text. Folks that have seen this anime will understand what I'm talking about when I said that I had no difficulty at all when watching Death Note subtitled.

I'm from Portugal, by the way lol

[AgitoZ]

I'm a big nerd for film wobble and the rough edges of painted celluloid telecined from 35mm. Things like Castle of Cagliostro are beautiful to me, and subtitles can mar the artistry. If I couldn't turn off subtitles on DVDs and Bluray to check out scenes I'm really into, I don't know what I'd do.

I'm surprised you're not complaining about the cut intro first...

As for dubbing I guess I should also follow up that dubbing in Chile is almost non existent. They're mostly dubs from Mexico and the like. Even though this speeds up the process it can sometimes deter the enjoyment of some people.

[Ashura]

Rukura, just to be curious, where are you from specifically?

He's from Space Portugal. It's Portugal...In SPAAACE!

Haha. I saw that. I wasn't sure if it was a joke or whatnot.

I can certainly understand that perspective. Even more so, if you're trying to take every single detail of animation, I can get why that would be important. (Even if it sounds like in your case, anything audio would secondary to begin with )

Good sound design and music are just as important. I want to make it clear, I'm not trying to discount them. Ironically, mix-wise, I think our dubs have had a step-up on Japanese mixes for a long time... though they're catching up more and more lately which is very cool.

Folks that have seen this anime will understand what I'm talking about when I said that I had no difficulty at all when watching Death Note subtitled.

Hahaha. Considering that they had to add action-packed writing animation to Death Note to try to make it more exciting for TV audiences, I get your point. There are certainly shows where the animation _isn't_ as important, though that show has exquisite character designs and at least the manga has amazing use of contrast. (I read the comics for that more than watched the animation, myself.)

I'm surprised you're not complaining about the cut intro first...

Trust me, the DVD I have is the Japanese Disney version which includes the streamline dub, and not the Manga one where they put the weird window-boxing on the opening titles.

I didn't pick up the Manga version until it was $15 at WalMart, and mainly that's for the amazingly candid interview with one of the assistant directors on it. (If you consider yourself an anime fan, you're doing yourself a disservice not watching that interview.)

[Adamant]

Reading his initial statement it does still come off a bit extreme to me, but I think what Adamant was trying to get across is that dubbing foreign properties is more unthinkable or abnormal than anything else. That you just don't see it and it's not in the minds of the people to want it. It's not that there's some kind of active derision towards people who like dubs in Norway, what he's trying to say is they don't really exist save for children's cartoons.

Let me know if I'm off-base here, Adamant.

That's roughly it, yes. There's no derision towards people who "like dubs", because no one likes dubs. Dubs of material not aimed at very young children don't exist. The idea that someone would come up with the idea of dubbing stuff for adults, let alone spend money on it, and that there are people who would not only like this dub, but actually prefer it to the original work is insane.

(and hey, don't write off the taste of pissed-on food without trying it)

[dario03]

I think one of the issues here is that a lot of people that are from North America are very used to having every major entertainment production made "locally" and/or produced in their own language.

As a result, people in other countries have to rely on their own knowledge of the english language, or...uhm...ya know...subtitles. Because, over here, if it's not Pixar or Disney or DreamWorks it's also not dubbed (except anime shown in kids channels). Even if it were, you would have a situation where I don't want to see "How I Met Your Mother" or "The Simpsons" dubbed, I know it won't be the same experience so I prefer to watch the original. I did the same thing when I was a kid with "Robocop", "Batman" and "Mortal Kombat".
Now, when I'm even more aware of how good the original production of a series made in Japan is, and even more so in comparison to the localized version I got, why I am considered an elitist or a japanophile? Was I being some kind of an elitist when I chose to watch Robocop with subtitles because I didn't know english that well yet? Or when I watched american cartoons raw on Cartoon Network because the local productions were crap?
How can some say "I just can't read the subs fast enough and enjoy the animation" when so many people do the same and with the subs not in their native language?

Also, as a small side comment, past posts make it seem like some people are discussing a dub's "accuracy" but with different concepts on what that is. Because an "accurate" dub, the way I see it, doesn't have to be 140% faithful to the script. But it does need to be accurate to the show, the feel of the show, and who the characters are.

Did you like the Simpsons and other comedies subbed before you spoke english well? Comedy is the one thing that I much prefer dubs of, any other kind of media can be subbed or dubbed.

[Rukura]

Good sound design and music are just as important. I want to make it clear, I'm not trying to discount them. Ironically, mix-wise, I think our dubs have had a step-up on Japanese mixes for a long time... though they're catching up more and more lately which is very cool.

No, I got what you were saying lol. Well, when you're also dealing with dubs 15 years after the fact it should be a step up in the audio quality

Hahaha. Considering that they had to add action-packed writing animation to Death Note to try to make it more exciting for TV audiences, I get your point. There are certainly shows where the animation _isn't_ as important, though that show has exquisite character designs and at least the manga has amazing use of contrast. (I read the comics for that more than watched the animation, myself.)

I just think that, while it does come down to personal preference how one wants to watch the show in question, it shouldn't just come down to "I just don't wanna bother/are not used to reading things on screen". And while I fully agree that the animation isn't as important on one show as the next, it's not like the viewer's exclusive attention needs or should or is supposed to go to one or the other. It's just not like my tv and movie viewings raised me

Did you like the Simpsons and other comedies subbed before you spoke english well? Comedy is the one thing that I much prefer dubs of, any other kind of media can be subbed or dubbed.

I actually started learning english when I was 4 through subtitled stuff like Simpsons and movies they'd show on tv as well as raw english stuff on Cartoon Network. I got used to explaining most of the stories to my parents that did speak english well lol. But, again, that all comes down to personal experience. (And even though I'm learning japanese in college, I have picked up a lot of vocabulary from watching subbed anime)

[UnbiasedDBZfan]

Reading his initial statement it does still come off a bit extreme to me, but I think what Adamant was trying to get across is that dubbing foreign properties is more unthinkable or abnormal than anything else. That you just don't see it and it's not in the minds of the people to want it. It's not that there's some kind of active derision towards people who like dubs in Norway, what he's trying to say is they don't really exist save for children's cartoons.

Let me know if I'm off-base here, Adamant.

That's roughly it, yes. There's no derision towards people who "like dubs", because no one likes dubs. Dubs of material not aimed at very young children don't exist. The idea that someone would come up with the idea of dubbing stuff for adults, let alone spend money on it, and that there are people who would not only like this dub, but actually prefer it to the original work is insane.


(and hey, don't write off the taste of pissed-on food without trying it)

To quote the worst Goku ever(KM) 'That's not true!' There are people who go as far enough to say that the first 53 edited episodes of the Ocean/Saban/Funimation dub are better then the Japanese version of those episodes. Long story short you're not insane if you prefer THE dub. Are most Cowboy Beebop fans insane for preferring the dub? Are most Metal Gear Fans insane from preferring the American metal Gear voices to the original because I'm pretty sure Hideo Kojima stated the English voices are better and guess what? They ain't the original!

[SHINOBI-03]

Regarding reading the subs on screen, I grew up watching English-speaking shows and movies. Most of them are subbed in Arabic for TV or in theaters. So, I'm used to watch subs. Yeah, sure there were some inaccuracies or obvious re-writing for censorship (cause viewers are morons), but I was so fluent in English that I can tell there's an obvious mistake.

Even to this day, me and my family prefer watching a show or a movie in it's original language even if it was different than ours since that how they were originally made. So, it's not a matter of watching anime in Japanese just because it's Japanese, I watch it in Japanese because it's originally Japanese made.

[Ashura]

Are most Metal Gear Fans insane from preferring the American metal Gear voices to the original because I'm pretty sure Hideo Kojima stated the English voices are better and guess what? They ain't the original!

We discussed this earlier, but actually, for MGS 2&3, those both came out in America first... so if you want to get technical... English *is* their original language. Both of those games were recorded at the same time and intended to be in both languages from the start, though. The Japanese game wasn't done first and translated later... it was all done in tandem. MGS4 also came out in the US, EU, and JP all on the same day with a variety of languages.

This is something that's happening with a lot of games as well as even some anime currently. If you look at Gundam UC, that comes with the English voice track even in Japan upon release date. The US Bluray is just the Japanese one with english packaging.

A lot of Japanese companies are looking to have their shows localized, because that leads to more money. A lot of Japanese companies were figuring in American profits into their budgets for a while even; I don't know if they are now that the boom's over, but at least for a significant amount of time the intent of the productions was that they were meant to be multilingual.

[UnbiasedDBZfan]

Are most Metal Gear Fans insane from preferring the American metal Gear voices to the original because I'm pretty sure Hideo Kojima stated the English voices are better and guess what? They ain't the original!

We discussed this earlier, but actually, for MGS 2&3, those both came out in America first... so if you want to get technical... English *is* their original language. Both of those games were recorded at the same time and intended to be in both languages from the start, though. The Japanese game wasn't done first and translated later... it was all done in tandem. MGS4 also came out in the US, EU, and JP all on the same day with a variety of languages.

This is something that's happening with a lot of games as well as even some anime currently. If you look at Gundam UC, that comes with the English voice track even in Japan upon release date. The US Bluray is just the Japanese one with english packaging.

A lot of Japanese companies are looking to have their shows localized, because that leads to more money. A lot of Japanese companies were figuring in American profits into their budgets for a while even; I don't know if they are now that the boom's over, but at least for a significant amount of time the intent of the productions was that they were meant to be multilingual.

Actually, the USA never got Metal Gear until 1998. No Metal Gear/Snake's Revenge on the NES is not Metal Gear. So the original version of Metal Gear is Japanese. Just saying. I did my research.

[Pokewhiz7]

That's why he said MGS. NES games don't have voice tracks, anyway.

[UnbiasedDBZfan]

That's why he said MGS. NES games don't have voice tracks, anyway.

There's a bible game that has 'Courageous Joshua!'

[Pokewhiz7]

That's why he said MGS. NES games don't have voice tracks, anyway.

There's a bible game that has 'Courageous Joshua!'

Other than a few lines.

[Ashura]

Actually, the USA never got Metal Gear until 1998. No Metal Gear/Snake's Revenge on the NES is not Metal Gear. So the original version of Metal Gear is Japanese. Just saying. I did my research.

Metal Gear on NES is based loosely upon Kojima's original game. It's still considered a Metal Gear game even if it's not canon, much like Metal Gear: Ghost Babel (aka: Metal Gear Solid on the Gameboy Color) or the AC!D series. Metal Gear: Ghost Babel is sometimes thought to be part of Raiden's VR training prior to MGS2, though that's just fan conjecture.

Snake's Revenge, yeah, that's not a Metal Gear game. No argument there. As was pointed out, though, I was talking about the MGS series, not just plain MG.

And trust me, if there's something I know a little bit about... it's Metal Gear. I've written for multiple publications about it. If you've read Off the Map: A Formal Analysis of Metal Gear Solid 2, James Howell is a good friend of mine.

[UnbiasedDBZfan]

Actually, the USA never got Metal Gear until 1998. No Metal Gear/Snake's Revenge on the NES is not Metal Gear. So the original version of Metal Gear is Japanese. Just saying. I did my research.

Metal Gear on NES is based loosely upon Kojima's original game. It's still considered a Metal Gear game even if it's not canon, much like Metal Gear: Ghost Babel (aka: Metal Gear Solid on the Gameboy Color) or the AC!D series. Metal Gear: Ghost Babel is sometimes thought to be part of Raiden's VR training prior to MGS2, though that's just fan conjecture.

Snake's Revenge, yeah, that's not a Metal Gear game. No argument there. As was pointed out, though, I was talking about the MGS series, not just plain MG.

And trust me, if there's something I know a little bit about... it's Metal Gear. I've written for multiple publications about it. If you've read Off the Map: A Formal Analysis of Metal Gear Solid 2, James Howell is a good friend of mine.

I see. Anyway the voices in that are better then the voices then what Konami happened to pick. Not that the Japanese voices suck, they don't, they're badass but the English dub of the Metal Gear series is just better. I'm sorry purists it's a fact this time. I'm just saying original doesn't=better.

[Gaffer Tape]

Not that I can speak for all "purists," but as a "purist" myself, I have never made the argument that "original=better." That is certainly not an axiom any intelligent person would make. In the case of Dragon Ball, it is usually accurate. But I've never heard anyone say what you're accusing us of.

For me, the original is the original, and I'd rather see it just because I don't care for retroactive alterations, whether they are worse or leagues better.

Finally, your opinion of the voice cast of a video game does not make it a fact. Sorry.

[UnbiasedDBZfan]

Not that I can speak for all "purists," but as a "purist" myself, I have never made the argument that "original=better." That is certainly not an axiom any intelligent person would make. In the case of Dragon Ball, it is usually accurate. But I've never heard anyone say what you're accusing us of.

For me, the original is the original, and I'd rather see it just because I don't care for retroactive alterations, whether they are worse or leagues better.

Finally, your opinion of the voice cast of a video game does not make it a fact. Sorry.

Hideo Kojima>Me. Sorry.

Also I never said that the Metal Gear Solid(Gamecube-Present)English dub>Japanese version by far, I said the English dub is just better. Hot damn!! Also by that logic when you'd set Dante/Nero's to Japanese because the game was ORIGINALLY released in Japan despite the fact that English is spoken regardless of where you're buying. Also when you do switch it to original mode their voices are in English because of what I've just said. But since they came out in Japan first you'd rather hear the inferior Japanese Dante? Okay whatever floats your boat. It's your preference, go for it!

[Ashura]

Yeah, my point with Metal Gear is there is no "original" anymore... and that's happening to some anime now, too.

I guess just as a note, I've also played through MGS3 and 4 in both English and Japanese.

Takocam...!

[UnbiasedDBZfan]

Yeah, my point with Metal Gear is there is no "original" anymore... and that's happening to some anime now, too.

I guess just as a note, I've also played through MGS3 and 4 in both English and Japanese.

Takocam...!

You're confusing me? Not original anymore? I'm a bit like English Reecome.