Yea, i dont even know who made this. Gokus stupidity and Vegetas nervous breakdown logicDBZGTKOSDH wrote:The above image was fucking hilarious!
And I'm beginning have doubts about if Gohan wasn't SSJ2. Gohan should definitely be Super Saiyan 2 for the known reasons.
Holden Caulfield in [b][i]The Catcher in the Rye[/i][/b] wrote:I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery. People coming and putting a bunch of flowers on your stomach on Sunday, and all that crap. Who wants flowers when you're dead? Nobody.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Like @Piccolo Daimao, I too flip-flop between the two and to be completely honest narrowing it down to that doesn't make it easier at all.Kaboom wrote:Somebody (possibly also Rocketman) put it pretty effectively this way: "Which do you find more trustworthy; Toriyama's art, or Toriyama's story-telling?"
Both of them are shaky. Everyone knows how Toriyama writes on the seat of his pants, forgetting multiple subjects, retconning things at a win, and bringing up plotholes. Same with his art. He's not entirely consistent with it, as FNF describes.Kaboom wrote:Somebody (possibly also Rocketman) put it pretty effectively this way: "Which do you find more trustworthy; Toriyama's art, or Toriyama's story-telling?"
Holden Caulfield in [b][i]The Catcher in the Rye[/i][/b] wrote:I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery. People coming and putting a bunch of flowers on your stomach on Sunday, and all that crap. Who wants flowers when you're dead? Nobody.
Wait... they're different?!FNF wrote:Another one is Goku having Gotenks' hairstyle in a panel.
Or, he just wasn't able to, you know?DBZGTKOSDH wrote:The above image was fucking hilarious!
And I'm beginning have doubts about if Gohan wasn't SSJ2. Gohan should definitely be Super Saiyan 2 for the known reasons.
Not realy that Gohan SSJ2 would make sence, and art says diffrent.Bussani wrote:A shoulder guard or forgetting to color something in here and there is one thing, but drawing the completely wrong aura for an entire chapter? It's kind of hard to believe. I agree that, story wise, Gohan being Super Saiyan 2 would probably make more sense, but I've read it several times and never come to the conclusion of, "Oh yes, the story says he was Super Saiyan 2; I'm 100% positive of that." The quotes and story and everything seem debatable, to me, while the art seems quite a bit less up for argument. But that's just how I feel--it's clear that other people think the art is just as questionable!
No one said that, though. Goku said he and Cell (not any specific version of Cell) were "probably about the same". Even if they mean Perfect Cell specifically--which I assume they do--that's still pretty broad. Goku fought Perfect Cell, and he was weaker than Gohan back then.Super Vegetto wrote:Its because of statments like Dabura = Perfect Cell
Kibito also didn't think Gohan would be able to pull out the Z-sword. He didn't even think Super Saiyan could pull out the Z-sword, and he'd seen Super Saiyan 2 at the tournament. Does that mean Gohan must have been Super Saiyan 2 when he pulled the sword out as well? Assuming these two can even sense ki at all (they must be able to, since they both admitted that Super Saiyan 2 Gohan had more power than they expected at the tournament), it seems more like they're just terrible at equating the level of a ki with what a person with that level of ki is actually capable of when they use it. In other words, it feels like he's saying, "You should have seen Gohan in action!" rather than "You should have seen his power level!"and Gohan that Kaioshin saw > Gohan that Kibito saw.
When you compere with the one who is closest in strenght, you compere them in full power. Goku saw FP Perfect Cell and you see my point.Bussani wrote:No one said that, though. Goku said he and Cell (not any specific version of Cell) were "probably about the same". Even if they mean Perfect Cell specifically--which I assume they do--that's still pretty broad. Goku fought Perfect Cell, and he was weaker than Gohan back then.Super Vegetto wrote:Its because of statments like Dabura = Perfect Cell
Kibito also didn't think Gohan would be able to pull out the Z-sword. He didn't even think Super Saiyan could pull out the Z-sword, and he'd seen Super Saiyan 2 at the tournament. Does that mean Gohan must have been Super Saiyan 2 when he pulled the sword out as well? Assuming these two can even sense ki at all (they must be able to, since they both admitted that Super Saiyan 2 Gohan had more power than they expected at the tournament), it seems more like they're just terrible at equating the level of a ki with what a person with that level of ki is actually capable of when they use it. In other words, it feels like he's saying, "You should have seen Gohan in action!" rather than "You should have seen his power level!"and Gohan that Kaioshin saw > Gohan that Kibito saw.
There are lots of other Kaioshin quotes that show how useless he is at this stuff. "So that's why these three are so composed--in a pinch they can bring out tremendous power!" Yes, Kaioshin, you already saw him do that back at the tournament. I'd let him off with that one if he were only talking about Goku and Vegeta, but since he's talking about all three of them, it's clear he just has no clue.
Gohan's rage-boosted SSJ can easily be > SSJ2.Super Vegetto wrote: Kaioshin: “You were dead, Kibito, so you didn’t get to see Gohan here’s unbelievably tremendous power.”
He talks about power, not performance. SSJ cant be > SSJ2.
I think this post answers it well enough:Super Vegetto wrote:When you compere with the one who is closest in strenght, you compere them in full power. Goku saw FP Perfect Cell and you see my point.
Kaioshin: “You were dead, Kibito, so you didn’t get to see Gohan here’s unbelievably tremendous power.”
He talks about power, not performance. SSJ cant be > SSJ2.
dprez wrote:Kaioshin was speaking of the over all abilities of the three saiyans that Kibito didn't get to see. Kaioshin also heard Goku tell Gohan to get angry, that way he can't lose to anybody. He witnessed Gohan fight Dabura while not at full strength, meaning he has even more power hidden, and Gohan's comments on how he should be able to handle Boo if he uses all his power, basically everything that the saiyans did after Kibito was killed completely stunned Kaioshin. Sure Kibito saw Gohans Ssj2 power, but he never got to see the saiyans in action, and hear them boast about how easy this challenge that Kibito and Kaioshin feared so much, actually was to them. Kibito saw SSj2 Gohan. Kibito didn't see Gohan's unbelievably tremendous power. I can see how you would take that as literally meaning Kaioshin saw a Ssj2 Gohan stronger than the Ssj2 Gohan Kibito saw, but I do not believe this is the case. That rather vague quote cannot be taken so literal.
Kaioshin's quote does not automatically mean Gohan was Ssj2 against Boo. Kaioshin knows of Gohan's enormous hidden power at this point. He heard Vegeta and Goku speak of how he was stronger back in the day, and how his anger could erupt him to a level of power far beyond what Kaioshin was witnessing. He now understands that these saiyans have a ton of power in reserve, and Gohan possibly has the most. Really not even that, only because Goku is dead and Vegeta is evil, so his power is their only hope. All Kaioshin knows is that Gohan actually had power inside of him that could allow him to easily beat Dabura and challenge Fat Boo. Gohan never did either of these things so I don't know, I guess that's why Kaioshin is training Gohan with the Z sword.
Without any visual or more direct textual evidence during the time of Gohan's alleged Ssj2 appearance against Boo, it's hard to use that quote about the incredibly powerful saiyans to prove Gohan was Ssj2. Kibito didn't get to see Gohan's unbelievably tremendous power. He did see SSj2 Gohan, but he did not see him fight, nor get to understand his true capabilities. We also can't put to much faith in these guys ki sensing abilities. Even after seeing Ssj2 Gohan, they still feared the likes of Dabura and Pui Pui...
Taking into account those two quotes from Kaioshin, I see to much telling me he was just a regular SSj. Still incredibly powerful compared to Kaioshin and Kibito. Add in what Kaioshin learned of Gohan's true abilities, and the over all incredible powers of these saiyans, then what he says to Kibito makes perfect sense even if Gohan was not a Ssj2 against Boo's shell, which he does not appear to be.
He was angry to some extent.Super Vegetto wrote:hleV : He wasnt angry like against Cell
"We" who?Super Vegetto wrote:Fox666 : We already cleared this debate. Its SSJ2 Gohan vs Dabura. Its SSJ2 Gohan against Majin boo and Majin boos shell.
