Question about Buu Saga and strength

[Kaboom]

The entire point of Gohan's "rage boosts" is that they're unpredictable.

[RandomGuy96]

The rage boosts are kind of bullshit. Everything about Gohan's power-ups are, really. Anyway, the numbers from new list I'm crafting gives the rage boost a 1.5x multiplier. I see the rage boosts as the difference between teen and kid Gohan as SS2s, and the reason Goku thought that Gohan surpassed him. In the Cell Games, I have:

Vegeta-
Super Saiyan Full Power- 8,000,000,000

Goku-
--50% Power- 7,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan Full Power- 14,000,000,000

Perfect Cell-
--Against Goku- 16,000,000,000
--Full Power Perfect- 24,000,000,000
--Super Perfect-- 32,000,000,000

(Kid) Gohan-
--Super Saiyan Full Power- 12,000,000,000
--Enraged SS2- 36,000,000,000

(Teen) Gohan-
--Super Saiyan Full Power- 12,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 24,000,000,000

Dabura-
--If Gohan was a SS2- 26,000,000,000
--If Gohan was a SS1- 13,000,000,000

[Draken]

The rage boosts are kind of bullshit. Everything about Gohan's power-ups are, really. Anyway, the numbers from new list I'm crafting gives the rage boost a 1.5x multiplier. I see the rage boosts as the difference between teen and kid Gohan as SS2s, and the reason Goku thought that Gohan surpassed him. In the Cell Games, I have:

Vegeta-
Super Saiyan Full Power- 8,000,000,000

Goku-
--50% Power- 7,500,000,000
--Super Saiyan Full Power- 14,000,000,000

Perfect Cell-
--Against Goku- 16,000,000,000
--Full Power Perfect- 24,000,000,000
--Super Perfect-- 32,000,000,000

(Kid) Gohan-
--Super Saiyan Full Power- 12,000,000,000
--Enraged SS2- 36,000,000,000

(Teen) Gohan-
--Super Saiyan Full Power- 12,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 24,000,000,000

Dabura-
--If Gohan was a SS2- 26,000,000,000
--If Gohan was a SS1- 13,000,000,000

Couple things with your list though. How is Goku's 50% power more than half his full power? O_O. Do you mean 15 million for Goku? And it actually is heavily implied Gohan surpassed his father even without rage boosts, as shown during the Cell v Goku and Cell v Gohan fight. Gohan was keeping up with Goku's fight and standing there with McKayla Maroney's "not impressed" face, and wondered if his dad was holding back. Later, when he fought Cell while restraining himself because he was unsure of himself and didn't want to fight, Cell acknowledged the fact that Goku wasn't bluffing about Gohan being stronger and needed to go full speed against Gohan. And I personally have Dabura either on par or weaker than Gohan, and it was more Gohan's rustiness and the fact that Dabura probably had a bunch of nasty experience that placed him so well against Gohan. It's kinda weird for someone to stay in the exact same shape after 7 years of not training .

[RandomGuy96]

Crap, typos. Thanks...

Couple things with your list though. How is Goku's 50% power more than half his full power? O_O.

Fix'd. I was typing in a hurry.

And it actually is heavily implied Gohan surpassed his father even without rage boosts, as shown during the Cell v Goku and Cell v Gohan fight. Gohan was keeping up with Goku's fight and standing there with McKayla Maroney's "not impressed" face, and wondered if his dad was holding back.

I don't really know about that. He could've just been thinking that his dad was even stronger than that. He never considered himself to be the strong one.

Later, when he fought Cell while restraining himself because he was unsure of himself and didn't want to fight, Cell acknowledged the fact that Goku wasn't bluffing about Gohan being stronger and needed to go full speed against Gohan.

Really? I remember Gohan actually trying to fight as his "calm" self and getting crushed. I think he at least tried to throw a kick, and I think that all those remarks about him restraining himself or not unleashing full power was talking about the rage boosts. And Cell stressed how weak Gohan was and kept asking Goku to get back in the fight.

And I personally have Dabura either on par or weaker than Gohan, and it was more Gohan's rustiness and the fact that Dabura probably had a bunch of nasty experience that placed him so well against Gohan.

I might place them even, but given the way Dabura later speaks of Gohan I think he's stronger. He says that although Gohan is much stronger than he thought, he's still trash that Dabura can crush. Dabura's cocky, sure, but he's not suicidal, and is shown to be pretty reasonably intelligent.

It's kinda weird for someone to stay in the exact same shape after 7 years of not training .

I'm under the belief that ki doesn't simply disappear if you don't train. Hence why I have the rage boosts being what makes Gohan as a kid stronger than Gohan as an adult.

[Draken]

Cell had to power up to full speed in order to be able to tag Gohan, otherwise Gohan was managing to not get pummeled.

He did consider himself weaker, because he thought his dad was stronger than him, which surprised him when he found out it wasn't true. He's like "dafq" when Goku said he was truly going full power because that wasn't stronger than Gohan imo.

Remember, everyone thought Goku was wrong about Gohan until he got bashed by Cell's full speed (which he needed to finally hit Gohan, which he didn't need to hit Goku) and Piccolo thought Gohan was sent to his death by Goku. Yet Gohan's ki didn't drop, because he wasn't taking serious damage, due to his superior strength. And Cell suppressed himself to about Goku's level in power, which is why Gohan, who was stronger, didn't really get injured.

[Hitiro]

Is there a multiplier of some sort that lets us know just how much stronger he becomes from rage boosts?

There isn't an official one. But I don't see the rage boost being that high of a multiplier. Obviously it was a significant boost for Gohan to basically destroy Perfect Cell but it has to be something reasonable as to not put SSJ3 Goku over 30 billion considering that a Genki Dama with all of the Earthlings, Namekian's and Z-Fighters Genki wouldn't be above 30-40 billion which would mean the Genki Dama wouldn't have been enough to defeat Boo. I'd say with the Rage boost ontop of SSJ2 Gohan was 3x to 5x stronger than what he was as a SSJ. So 150x to 250x his base. That would be a multiplier of 1.5 to 2.5 on top of his SSJ2.

That's still an enormous multiplier O_O. Would equal Gohan's SSJ2 being as strong as if he had went SSJ3. I don't think the multiplier is THAT huge... Especially because that later inflates everyone else's powers.

How does a 1.5x to 2.5x increase on top of SSJ2 equate to him being as strong as a SSJ3? SSJ3 is a 4x increase from SSJ2.

The rage boosts are kind of bullshit. Everything about Gohan's power-ups are, really. Anyway, the numbers from new list I'm crafting gives the rage boost a 1.5x multiplier. I see the rage boosts as the difference between teen and kid Gohan as SS2s, and the reason Goku thought that Gohan surpassed him. In the Cell Games, I have:

Vegeta-
Super Saiyan Full Power- 8,000,000,000

Goku-
--50% Power- 7,500,000,000
--Super Saiyan Full Power- 14,000,000,000

Perfect Cell-
--Against Goku- 16,000,000,000
--Full Power Perfect- 24,000,000,000
--Super Perfect-- 32,000,000,000

(Kid) Gohan-
--Super Saiyan Full Power- 12,000,000,000
--Enraged SS2- 36,000,000,000

(Teen) Gohan-
--Super Saiyan Full Power- 12,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 24,000,000,000

Dabura-
--If Gohan was a SS2- 26,000,000,000
--If Gohan was a SS1- 13,000,000,000

I think you need to re-work your list of powerlevels. If any of these characters are exceeding 30 billion then you've gone wrong somewhere. The battle power of the Genki Dama Goku used against Pure Boo is at most 30-40 billion, this is also being highly optimistic, when I calculated the battle power of the Genki Dama I was ignoring things like Genki being only a portion of ki and I used the stated average battle power of humans against the population of our Earth, not Dragonballs. It is more than likely that Dragonball Earth's population is much lower than ours considering the geographic layout of the world and there being only 5 major cities. Also there is a significantly larger number of old people and young people in any population which means multiplying the average battle power of 5 against the whole population is considerably wrong. If you are going to put any of these characters above 30 billion then the Genki Dama against Pure Boo would simply not work. In my workings I basically made the assumption, which I know is wrong but I was trying to demonstrate a highly optimistic outcome, that the whole 5 battle power's worth of ki would go into the Genki Dama. That put the Genki Dama with the population of Earth between 6 to 8 billion at a battle power of 30-40 billion.

Of the population in 2010[1] roughly 52% of the worlds population are under 30. About half of that 52% is made up of kids ranging from 0 years to 14 years old. Of that half the children from 0 years to perhaps 2 or 3 would not be able to willingly donate all their Genki due to not understanding the situation or lacking motor skills to raise their hands in the case of the babies. So we have:

25% of the worlds population are kids which have a powerlevel probably half that of the average power level on Earth. So a battle power of 2.5 will be fine. We'll take the 0-4 years population out of the equation as most of them simply can't donate Genki. So that is 9% Leaving the amount of kids that can donate at 16%
27% of the worlds population are teens to adults in their 30's, in the prime of their lives so they probably have a battle power of about 5. Maybe more; for arguments sake I'll say they all have 7.5
The other 48% are from their 40's, where the least amount of people in their prime exist, all the way to old age making that 4.5 to 2.5 in my book. Lets just say 4.5 because we'll go for the most optimistic number.

The population recorded on socialnomics[1] is 6.8 billion. So using this number and the battle powers we've got for each age we'll determine the battle power of the Genki Dama. Taking into consideration that Genki is only a portion of ki and the percentage must be low enough for Gohan's ki not to have a dramatic impact as one of the strongest warriors in the universe. Then we'll say 33% is a fair enough Genki percentage as to not allow Gohan's ki to basically fuel the whole Genki.

Considering this we'll do the humans and the Namekians first.

There were about 100 Namekians during the Namek ark. All ranging from a couple thousand to 10's of thousands. We'll place each Namekian at 10,000 as a nice round figure and for generosity.

100 * 10,000 = 1,000,000 Battle Power. Of that 1 million battle power only 33% of the ki, which is the Genki portion, will be donated to the Genki Dama giving the Genki Dama 330,000 BP.

Next, the Earthlings:

16% of 6.8 billion = 1,088,000,000 kids.

1,088,000,000 * 2.5 = 2,720,000,000 Battle Power. Of that amount only 33% gets donated. Which means the amount donated to the Genki Dama is 897,600,000 meaning the Genki Dama has a BP of 897,930,000

27% of 6.8 billion = 1,836,000,000 teens and adults.

1,836,000,000 * 7.5 = 13,770,000,000 Battle Power. 33% = 4,544,100,000 making the Genki Dama have a BP of 5,442,030,000.

48% of 6.8 billion = 3,264,000,000 older people to elderly.

3,264,000,000 * 4.5 = 14,688,000,000 Battle Power. 33% = 4,847,040,000 making the Genki Dama have a BP of 10,289,070,000.

Let's put R. Kaioshin Gohan at 60 Billion. 33% = 19,800,000,000 making the Genki Dama have a BP of 30,089,070,000.

The other Z-Fighters wouldn't give that much more to the Genki Dama.

1. http://www.socialnomics.net/2010/04/13/ ... -the-rise/

[Draken]

Yea sorry I messed up . Went 4x increase from SSJ, not SSJ2. But still, it's a big increase.

But who said Genki is calculated and absorbed like Ki? Goku literally took genki for his Genki Dama against Frieza from plants and some animals in a near dead solar system... And it went up to 50-60 million at least. Then again we go to against Vegeta where he took it from a healthy thriving Earth and a fraction of it didn't even kill a battered Vegeta.

[RandomGuy96]

It should be fairly obvious that it doesn't just add power levels together. Otherwise, Gohan alone (THE strongest person in the universe, not one of the strongest) would have given way more energy than they needed. He's many times stronger than Kid Buu, so 33% of his energy would be more than enough to obliterate Kid Buu.

[Hitiro]

Yea sorry I messed up . Went 4x increase from SSJ, not SSJ2. But still, it's a big increase.

But who said Genki is calculated and absorbed like Ki? Goku literally took genki for his Genki Dama against Freeza from plants and some animals in a near dead solar system... And it went up to 50-60 million at least. Then again we go to against Vegeta where he took it from a healthy thriving Earth and a fraction of it didn't even kill a battered Vegeta.

Well the increase is not as big as some people probably believe it is, lol.

But why don't you think Genki is calculated and absorbed like Ki? You can find it on here but Akira Toriyama explains that Ki is made up of multiple different sub components. One of them being Genki. So the Genki Dama is formed through the Genki portion of our Ki. If it is a component of what makes up Ki then whatever amount of Ki that makes up a battle power of 5 would mean that the portion which is Genki contributes to that. Therefore if we assume Genki only makes up 33% of Ki then the 33% of the amount of Ki that would make up a battle power of 5 would be how much a battler power made up of just Genki would have. Which is a BP of 1.65.

Chapter: 315 (DBZ 121), P2.2-5, P3.1-2
Kuririn: “It-it’s huge…And it’s getting even bigger…”
Piccolo: “Is it really that big?”
Gohan: “On Earth it was about this big [he holds out his hands]”
Kuririn: “Th-this time its diameter is about 50 meters…He shouldn’t be able to make a Genki-Dama that huge on this planet…Goku must have even gathered ki from the surrounding planets…”
Piccolo: “Freeza doesn’t seem to have noticed yet…So why doesn’t Goku attack with that ball right away?...”
Kuririn: “Goku’s definitely thinking that if he doesn’t gather more ki and make it even huger, it won’t be able to defeat Freeza…”

Goku gathered the ki from the surrounding planets though, not a "near dead solar system." There is no telling what kind of life those planets held. The Kaio also said that Goku could tap into collecting the energy from stars, like our sun, before Goku left Kaio's planet. Namek is a planet with 3 suns and is in perpetual daylight. We also have to remember that Namek also has a lot more plants and animals than Earth has because it only has a population of 100 or so Namekians so the villages would be rather small and not affect the environment that much. Compared to the massive cities Earth has in Dragonball. Not to mention Goku had a much longer time to collect the Genki for the Genki Dama on Namek, on Earth Goku had only until Oozaru Vegeta gained his sight back and even then Goku lost a majority of the energy he collected for the Genki Dama when Vegeta attacked him.

It should be fairly obvious that it doesn't just add power levels together. Otherwise, Gohan alone (THE strongest person in the universe, not one of the strongest) would have given way more energy than they needed. He's many times stronger than Kid Buu, so 33% of his energy would be more than enough to obliterate Kid Buu.

I was merely giving an example of how pitiful Genki would be with the Earthlings. And we have nothing to point at to know how much stronger Gohan was in comparison to Pure Boo. 33% may not have been enough. I should also point out that the Genki provided by the Earthlings was significant enough to make the difference. Why is it that the amount the Earthlings provided was so significant to the Genki Dama's creation and Gohan, who was the most powerful unfused character(And by the way I also consider Gohan the strongest in the universe, amongst the unfused of course, but I was trying to avoid saying it to not spark one of those large debates about Goku being stronger or people believing Pure Boo being stronger than Super Boo.), only didn't contribute a fairly large amount enough to just obliterate Pure Boo? You say "its obvious that it doesn't just add power levels together" then what would you suggest it does? Because if you say its a multiplication of the Genki or any such thing then it would have only need Gohan's Genki again. No matter what Genki + Rest of Ki = Battle Power. If a persons battle power is 5 then whatever amount of ki it takes to make a battle power of 5 would have a fixed setting. No person can have more ki than a battle power represents, unless they are hiding their ki and subsequently battle power, likewise you can't have more battle power than ki. It would be something like this.

5 BP = X amount of Genki + Y amount of other Ki.

X amount of Genki = 5 BP - Y amount of other Ki.

X BP = Y Genki.

[Draken]

You can't assume Genki is only or at most 33%. Vitality is a pretty dang important part of living, you could assume Genki makes a larger portion of one's ki. Likewise, you could also argue ki is a a spiritual and intangible force, so a good state of mind and courage is more important and vitality not as much. So you can't assume it works like ki in general.

[Hitiro]

You can't assume Genki is only or at most 33%. Vitality is a pretty dang important part of living, you could assume Genki makes a larger portion of one's ki. Likewise, you could also argue ki is a a spiritual and intangible force, so a good state of mind and courage is more important and vitality not as much. So you can't assume it works like ki in general.

Like I said, 33% is only for arguments sake. What doesn't change is Genki IS part of Ki. If you subtract the Genki from the rest of what makes up your Ki you're going to have a lower battle power. If you subtract the rest of what makes up your Ki from the Genki part you are going to be left with whatever amount of battle power Genki represents. If you want to assume that Genki is a much higher percentage of what makes up your ki then that is up to you. I personally think 33% is a good number as you can't have the Genki part being 60%+ or Gohan's Genki should have been more than enough to kill off Pure Boo by itself.

[TheMightyOzaru]

While I agree at this point that SSJ3 Goku shouldn't exceed 40,000,000,000, Gohan alone can give a tremendous amount of Genki so his levels can be that high.

[RandomGuy96]

I personally think 33% is a good number as you can't have the Genki part being 60%+ or Gohan's Genki should have been more than enough to kill off Pure Boo by itself.

33% of Gohan's power is already way more than enough energy to kill Buu. Gotenks was over twice as strong as Goku prior to the ROSAT, where he supposedly got a LOT stronger, and Gohan beat Super Buu (Gotenks' equal) into the ground. There are even very heavy implications that base Gotenks was a lot stronger than the power SS3 Goku displayed against Fat Buu. 33% of Gohan's energy would be complete overkill.

Cell had to power up to full speed in order to be able to tag Gohan, otherwise Gohan was managing to not get pummeled.

He did consider himself weaker, because he thought his dad was stronger than him, which surprised him when he found out it wasn't true. He's like "dafq" when Goku said he was truly going full power because that wasn't stronger than Gohan imo.

Remember, everyone thought Goku was wrong about Gohan until he got bashed by Cell's full speed (which he needed to finally hit Gohan, which he didn't need to hit Goku) and Piccolo thought Gohan was sent to his death by Goku. Yet Gohan's ki didn't drop, because he wasn't taking serious damage, due to his superior strength. And Cell suppressed himself to about Goku's level in power, which is why Gohan, who was stronger, didn't really get injured.

That's reasonable. I guess I'll change it around a bit:

Vegeta-
Super Saiyan Full Power- 9,000,000,000

Goku-
--50% Power- 7,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan Full Power- 14,000,000,000

Perfect Cell-
--Against Goku- 16,000,000,000
--Full Power Perfect- 24,000,000,000
--Super Perfect-- 48,000,000,000

(Kid) Gohan-
--Super Saiyan Full Power- 18,000,000,000
--Hypothetical Enraged Super Saiyan Full Power- 27,000,000,000
--SS2- 36,000,000,000
--Enraged SS2- 54,000,000,000

(Teen) Gohan-
--Super Saiyan Full Power- 18,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 36,000,000,000

Then

Dabura- 16,000,000,000-20,000,000,000
(still haven't really decided if his later remark was supposed to be taken as a serious power level statement, because the difference would be small enough for his skill to let him beat Gohan like he was)

Vegeta-
--Super Saiyan Full Power- 23,000,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2- 46,000,000,000
--Majin Vegeta SS2- 60,000,000,000

You say "its obvious that it doesn't just add power levels together" then what would you suggest it does?

Whatever the plot needs it to do, hence why it didn't disintegrate Vegeta.

[Bussani]

You can't assume Genki is only or at most 33%. Vitality is a pretty dang important part of living, you could assume Genki makes a larger portion of one's ki.

I think it could be also be smaller, frankly. Toriyama didn't say that ki was only made up of three elements--he just said "such as" and gave three examples. Besides that, we don't know that your total ki is simply the sum of all of its elements; it could be greater than the sum. I do think that genki is a highly important component, though, to the point that giving up all your genki may very well reduce your total ki to zero, even if you still have some other components left over. An oversimplified example might look something like:

(Yuuki + Shouki + Other Components) * Genki = Total ki

[Amuro Ray]

Did I just read someone state Base Gotenks was stronger than SSJ3 Goku?

[Hitiro]

Did I just read someone state Base Gotenks was stronger than SSJ3 Goku?

I'm sure he meant SSJ Gotenks.

[Amuro Ray]

Did I just read someone state Base Gotenks was stronger than SSJ3 Goku?

I'm sure he meant SSJ Gotenks.

And even that holds no basis in truth.

[VegettoEX]

Did I just read someone state Base Gotenks was stronger than SSJ3 Goku?

Please find other ways to respond to posts with statements you personally find outlandish or perhaps mis-spoken.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

There are actually a few who believe Base Gotenks is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku after his rosat training based on Piccolo's reaction upon fusion.

In fact, I remember presenting this idea a good while back. Man, that was so long ago...

[Draken]

Did I just read someone state Base Gotenks was stronger than SSJ3 Goku?

I'm sure he meant SSJ Gotenks.

And even that holds no basis in truth.

Yes it does.