Question about Buu Saga and strength

[IIMaxII]

I was watching the world tournament saga, (the funimation 276 episodes release) after Gohan transforms Vegeta states that Gohan had a lot more power when he faced cell, which I do agree with but, Kaioshin states that he is the strongest fighter at this tournament. That can't be right considering Goku is able to go SSJ3 at this point, and Vegeta is still stronger than Gohan considering later on he states that he could have beat Dabura faster than Gohan. Not sure if this is just incorrect Funi Dub but, can someone confirm this is incorrect? Exact quote below...

Vegeta: Heh. Gohan had a lot more power when he fought Cell. I think your son has gone soft in these peaceful times, Kakarot.
Kaioshin: You may be right, but he is still the strongest fighter at this tournament.


Even if what is stated is correct in the manga or Japanese dub, how can Kaioshin be incorrect considering he oversees everything? Plot hole?

[rereboy]

Kaioshin is the most unreliable character regarding power statements. His guesses are more often wrong than right. He even actually thought that a being that considered 10x Earth's gravity a big deal to be a threat to Vegeta when they entered Babidi's ship.

In short, he doesn't know what the hell he is talking about more than half of the time. Maybe this is intentional, maybe the author thought it would be amusing for the God of Gods to be that inferior to Goku and the others in pretty much every aspect.

[Akira]

Kaioshin was going off bad intel, not to mention that Goku had been in the afterlife for seven years, and no one had seen Vegeta fight since the Cell games. As far as anyone knew, Gohan was still the strongest. They had always been good at concealing their battle powers, and at that point neither Vegeta nor Goku had revealed Super Saiyan 2 yet, or Goku's Super Saiyan 3. Not a plot hole, just the likely possibility that unless something major is going down (like the Cell games for instance) any developments beyond that under peaceful circumstances likely went un-noticed by the Kaioshins.

[IIMaxII]

I think it's just to keep the audience in suspense or something, I can't really make excuses for his stupidity...He can read minds and such and they knew about Gohans SSJ, but Kibito is also unaware of a level behind SSJ...I mean c'mon he Kaioshin over-sees everything surely he and Kibito would be aware... Also I believe when Kibito is healing Gohan he says something along the lines of "It might take awhile to heal him he's lost a lot of energy, how can an earthling be so strong"...What's with all the inconsistencies..xD

[IIMaxII]

Kaioshin was going off bad intel, not to mention that Goku had been in the afterlife for seven years, and no one had seen Vegeta fight since the Cell games. As far as anyone knew, Gohan was still the strongest. They had always been good at concealing their battle powers, and at that point neither Vegeta nor Goku had revealed Super Saiyan 2 yet, or Goku's Super Saiyan 3. Not a plot hole, just the likely possibility that unless something major is going down (like the Cell games for instance) any developments beyond that under peaceful circumstances likely went un-noticed by the Kaioshins.

Surely that kind of power can be sensed right? Goku and Vegeta literally call Kid buu to Kaioshins planet by powering up in SSJ/SSJ2 and Kaioshin can't sense Vegeta training at 500x Gravity or Goku's training in otherworld?

[FNF]

Kaioshin is a mug really. Hell, he even seemed to be in complete awe of the Saiyans in their regular forms. He didn't live up to Piccolo's hype at all.

[rereboy]

Goku and Vegeta literally call Kid buu to Kaioshins planet by powering up in SSJ/SSJ2

That's filler. In the manga, Kid Buu simply followed them there immediately after the Earth blew up using Kibitoshin's technique (which he copied).

[IIMaxII]

Kaioshin is a mug really. Hell, he even seemed to be in complete awe of the Saiyans in their regular forms. He didn't live up to Piccolo's hype at all.

I completely agree with you about piccolo over hyping kaioshin, I think that was a bit on kami's part...who I think altered his personality (just a little) in the Buu saga...being respectful and his knowledge about the kai's.



Thank you for clearing that up ReReboy.

[Kaboom]

The quote is a little off.

The line as translated by Herms from the original manga:

Chapter: 444 (DBZ 250), P7.1-4
Gohan: “Well, I’ve become a Super Saiyan. Now what? Is it alright if I fight like this?”
Kibito: “…Wh-what tremendous power…I can’t believe he’s a being of the lower world!”
Vegeta: “…Hmph…That bastard, he was far, far better when he killed Cell. It’s because he slacked off in his training during peacetime…”
Kaioshin: “…No, even so this is magnificent energy, more so than I imagined…I wonder if I’ll be able to stop this power…”
Goku: “…Stop it?”

Subtitles from the anime:


So yeah, it looks like that's from a dub line or something. Either way, it's not TOO off the mark. Super Saiyan 2 Gohan was still the strongest character shown... so far. Goku and Vegeta's superiority wouldn't be revealed until a little later.

[Akira]

There are countless planets for the Kaioshin to watch over. Earth was not in danger, and power coming from Grand Kai's planet would be a regular occurrence with everyone from the ages who trained there. If the earth was not in immediate danger, then whatever was going on there was likely not noticed. North Kaio watches over Goku's galaxy specifically, and even he slept through half the Cell stuff. Kaioshin likely had his attention elsewhere than to wonder about people from one specific planet. When he was tracking Babidi's movements, probably the last thing remembered about Earth was the Cell Games.

That's the only thing that makes sense.

[IIMaxII]

The quote is a little off.

The line as translated by Herms from the original manga:

Chapter: 444 (DBZ 250), P7.1-4
Gohan: “Well, I’ve become a Super Saiyan. Now what? Is it alright if I fight like this?”
Kibito: “…Wh-what tremendous power…I can’t believe he’s a being of the lower world!”
Vegeta: “…Hmph…That bastard, he was far, far better when he killed Cell. It’s because he slacked off in his training during peacetime…”
Kaioshin: “…No, even so this is magnificent energy, more so than I imagined…I wonder if I’ll be able to stop this power…”
Goku: “…Stop it?”

Subtitles from the anime:


So yeah, it looks like that's from a dub line or something. Either way, it's not TOO off the mark. Super Saiyan 2 Gohan was still the strongest character shown... so far. Goku and Vegeta's superiority wouldn't be revealed until a little later.

I like that a lot better. I was thinking that kaioahin shouldn't be able to stop someone stronger than him and that line fits a lot better.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Umm.... It's not like Kaioshin can see their full power based on their base forms =/. Seriously I have the characters here:
Piccolo: 1,300,000,000
Goku: 100,000,000
Vegeta: 75,000,000
Ssj2 Gohan: 7,300,000,000
Clearly Gohan is the strongest of the group when he is a Ssj2 and everyone is not currently. As for Dabura, everyone is suppressed so he cannot see his their full power. He is likely just assuming Gohan, Goku, and Vegeta are the strongest of the group.

[IIMaxII]

Umm.... It's not like Kaioshin can see their full power based on their base forms =/. Seriously I have the characters here:
Piccolo: 1,300,000,000
Goku: 100,000,000
Vegeta: 75,000,000
Ssj2 Gohan: 7,300,000,000
Clearly Gohan is the strongest of the group when he is a Ssj2 and everyone is not currently. As for Dabura, everyone is suppressed so he cannot see his their full power. He is likely just assuming Gohan, Goku, and Vegeta are the strongest of the group.

I'm sure he can make the comparison between Gohan's base form and his SSJ and SSJ2 to Goku and Vegeta and make an estimation of their SSJ power.
Also.. Base saiyans > Piccolo.

[rereboy]

Also.. Base saiyans > Piccolo.

Why?

[Hitiro]

Umm.... It's not like Kaioshin can see their full power based on their base forms =/. Seriously I have the characters here:
Piccolo: 1,300,000,000
Goku: 100,000,000
Vegeta: 75,000,000
Ssj2 Gohan: 7,300,000,000
Clearly Gohan is the strongest of the group when he is a Ssj2 and everyone is not currently. As for Dabura, everyone is suppressed so he cannot see his their full power. He is likely just assuming Gohan, Goku, and Vegeta are the strongest of the group.

I'm sure he can make the comparison between Gohan's base form and his SSJ and SSJ2 to Goku and Vegeta and make an estimation of their SSJ power.
Also.. Base saiyans > Piccolo.

He did put Piccolo as higher than the base Saiyan's. Don't you see? The only problem I have with his numbers for the base Saiyan's are they are much too large. If Pure Boo was destroyed by the Genki Dama and SSJ3 Goku is on par with him then you're looking at a Genki Dama producing a battle power of 40-30 billion. Possibly lower. Don't forget that the Genki portion of peoples ki only makes up so much and making the assumption that the earth has roughly the same population as our Earth plus the assumption that, for arguments sake, all ki inside a human was Genki meaning the average battle power of 5 would be transferred to the Genki Dama then we would be looking at a battle power of 40-30 billion for the Genki Dama. However, all of ki within any person isn't Genki so the ki transmitted to the Genki Dama may be the equivalent of a battle power of 1 or some other value depending on how much Genki makes up a persons ki. 40-30 billion for the Genki Dama is very optimistic. So Goku and Vegeta must be much lower than that, possibly below 50% of Freeza's power.

[IIMaxII]

Umm.... It's not like Kaioshin can see their full power based on their base forms =/. Seriously I have the characters here:
Piccolo: 1,300,000,000
Goku: 100,000,000
Vegeta: 75,000,000
Ssj2 Gohan: 7,300,000,000
Clearly Gohan is the strongest of the group when he is a Ssj2 and everyone is not currently. As for Dabura, everyone is suppressed so he cannot see his their full power. He is likely just assuming Gohan, Goku, and Vegeta are the strongest of the group.

I'm sure he can make the comparison between Gohan's base form and his SSJ and SSJ2 to Goku and Vegeta and make an estimation of their SSJ power.
Also.. Base saiyans > Piccolo.

He did put Piccolo as higher than the base Saiyan's. Don't you see? The only problem I have with his numbers for the base Saiyan's are they are much too large. If Pure Boo was destroyed by the Genki Dama and SSJ3 Goku is on par with him then you're looking at a Genki Dama producing a battle power of 40-30 billion. Possibly lower. Don't forget that the Genki portion of peoples ki only makes up so much and making the assumption that the earth has roughly the same population as our Earth plus the assumption that, for arguments sake, all ki inside a human was Genki meaning the average battle power of 5 would be transferred to the Genki Dama then we would be looking at a battle power of 40-30 billion for the Genki Dama. However, all of ki within any person isn't Genki so the ki transmitted to the Genki Dama may be the equivalent of a battle power of 1 or some other value depending on how much Genki makes up a persons ki. 40-30 billion for the Genki Dama is very optimistic. So Goku and Vegeta must be much lower than that, possibly below 50% of Freeza's power.

You mis-understood, I'm saying Goku, Vegeta, and MAYBE Gohan are stronger than Piccolo in their base form. Also you think Goku and Vegeta in base form are weaker than 50% of Frieza? IMO they can one shot him at 100%...Frieza is nothing at this point, I know you're trying to take a more conservative approach of battle power but that's a bit much. I think even SSJ post RoSaT Trunks could one shot 100% Frieza.

About the Genki Dama, didn't Goku get energy from the Z-Warriors as-well as the Namekians?

[TheMightyOzaru]

No... In Battle of Gods 100% Freeza > base Goku is Implied and it's a canon film. Furthermore how is Kaioshin supposed to know what the Ssj multiplier is and how is he supposed to guesstimate when he doesn't know Vegeta's or Goku's full power? I'll tell you can't. Kaioshin is also incredibly unreliable when it comes to strength statements.

[Hitiro]

You mis-understood, I'm saying Goku, Vegeta, and MAYBE Gohan are stronger than Piccolo in their base form. Also you think Goku and Vegeta in base form are weaker than 50% of Freeza? IMO they can one shot him at 100%...Freeza is nothing at this point, I know you're trying to take a more conservative approach of battle power but that's a bit much. I think even SSJ post RoSaT Trunks could one shot 100% Freeza.

About the Genki Dama, didn't Goku get energy from the Z-Warriors as-well as the Namekians?

You realise that there aren't that many Namekians, right? Going from what Kaio said there are only a few hundred and their battle powers only range in the 1,000's. A couple of million tagged onto the Genki Dama's battle power isn't going to make a difference if we're talking about a Genki Dama you're assuming should be in the higher part of the billions. As for the Z-Warriors, you are correct. They'd offer the largest amount of Genki. But again, Genki is only a portion of ki. That is why Gohan's ki wasn't enough to fuel the Genki Dama, it was only his Genki that was contributed. Not all of his ki. The next most powerful person to Gohan from the Z-Fighters which contributed their Ki is Piccolo who's probably scraping the billions, perhaps less.

You honestly think Gohan, Piccolo and the others going to provide enough Genki to make the Genki Dama a Battle Power above 40 Billion? Again as I was saying earlier I was being generous with Earthlings. I was making out that every Human on Earth had a battle power of 5, as we've been told that is the average, and I was multiplying that battle power by 8 billion for the population of Earth(Which is also a very optimistic number). However in an ideal scenario there are going to be a lot more lower battle powers than there are higher ones amongst the humans due to children and the elderly being the largest ratio for population. And again only the Genki portion of their ki is being donated so the 5 x 8 billion thing isn't really accurate. It would be 1 or 2.5 or 3 depending on how much of a percentage Genki makes up the ki of an individual. Its probably more like 10 billion from the Earthlings. A couple of million from the Namekians and a couple of Billion from Gohan and the rest. So no, I really don't see the Saiyan's base powers being any higher than 50% of Freeza's battle power.

[FNF]

No... In Battle of Gods 100% Freeza > base Goku is Implied and it's a canon film. Furthermore how is Kaioshin supposed to know what the Ssj multiplier is and how is he supposed to guesstimate when he doesn't know Vegeta's or Goku's full power? I'll tell you can't. Kaioshin is also incredibly unreliable when it comes to strength statements.

It's implied that Freeza>base Goku (chill mode) while it's more than implied that Kaioshin is weaker than the base Saiyans in the Boo arc.

[Hitiro]

No... In Battle of Gods 100% Freeza > base Goku is Implied and it's a canon film. Furthermore how is Kaioshin supposed to know what the Ssj multiplier is and how is he supposed to guesstimate when he doesn't know Vegeta's or Goku's full power? I'll tell you can't. Kaioshin is also incredibly unreliable when it comes to strength statements.

It's implied that Freeza>base Goku (chill mode) while it's more than implied that Kaioshin is weaker than the base Saiyans in the Boo arc.

If the Kaioshin can restrain SSJ Gohan and Gohan says he'd probably need SSJ to beat Kibito then Kaioshin > Base Saiyans. Unless you're telling me that Kaioshin < Kibito?