Does anybody actually think that DBZ got better post-Namek?

[RandomGuy96]

That's why power levels are so irritating, it leads to things like this. It makes no sense from a writing perspective to not have the hero of the story be stronger than Vegeta at that point, even before taking into account momentary power boosts like Kaio-ken. Forget about the math.

Forget about the math? You're the one who brought up by saying Goku was 180,000. And what's wrong with Vegeta being stronger at this point? Heck, not even being stronger, just being greater than 10% of the hero's power?

I get it, "shit" means you are REALLY irritated. It's a fantasy, so it makes sense to me and many others that Goku becomes insanely strong after heavy gravity training.

That's not my main issue. My main issue is that you constantly rag on other characters for cheap power-ups yet let Goku's slip with little to no justification ("he trained for one week, it makes sense that he'd completely outstrip all the gains he made training for ten years from King Piccolo to Raditz by becoming eleven times stronger, and that other characters could do the same training for YEARS and not even double in power").

I've never rewritten the story.

"That power up should have drawn out all of Gohan's dormant power"

"Power levels don't mean anything"

"Goku was 180,000"

"Goku didn't actually do that, it's because of a retcon" (trying to make it look like it's not in Goku's character to do this and that somehow he didn't)

At this point, how about just making a seperate thread for all this power level talk? It's off-topic and is overwhelming the original conversation.

Shouldn't it be considered relevant insofar that it relates to the story-telling of the Namek saga?

[Kid Buu]

Actually it does make sense for Vegeta to be stronger again. Goku saves everyone from Recoome then loses to Captain Ginyu and is sidelinded; thus Vegeta becomes the facto leader of the group once again.

[Herms]

Shouldn't it be considered relevant insofar that it relates to the story-telling of the Namek saga?

At this point you guys just seem to be discussing "Number A vs Number B", with a side of "who gets the most bullshit power-ups?". It's not really about comparing the storytelling in the Namek story arc with the Cell/Boo arc.

I mean, I think it's a perfectly fine conversation, but maybe it should be seperate from this thread.

[90sDBZ]

The whole Goku vs Vegeta on Namek thing can get confusing. Goku was undeniably stronger than Vegeta when he arrived on Namek and probably after Vegeta had a Senzu as Vegeta still had to make a clear effort to beat up a wounded Captain Ginyu. However after his nap Vegeta was able to be a threat to 1st Form Frieza who was about 530,000(or something like that). I think that because Vegeta hadn't slept for a long time he had to have that nap before the Recoome zenkai could take full effect. That's the only explanation I can think of for him jumping to such a high level.

[rereboy]

Vegeta is never stronger than Goku at that point. He's stronger at base, but Goku has Kaioken. Even with just Kaioken x5 Goku would be 450.000. With x10 he would be close to Freeza's second form. So Goku would destroy Vegeta if he needed to.

However after his nap Vegeta was able to be a threat to 1st Form Freeza who was about 530,000(or something like that). I think that because Vegeta hadn't slept for a long time he had to have that nap before the Recoome zenkai could take full effect. That's the only explanation I can think of for him jumping to such a high level.

I do agree with this though. Vegeta seemed to be much stronger after his nap (since he was facing off Freeza when previously he took a while to take out Jhesse) and he probably hadn't slept in days.

[RandomGuy96]

Shouldn't it be considered relevant insofar that it relates to the story-telling of the Namek saga?

At this point you guys just seem to be discussing "Number A vs Number B", with a side of "who gets the most bullshit power-ups?". It's not really about comparing the storytelling in the Namek story arc with the Cell/Boo arc.

I mean, I think it's a perfectly fine conversation, but maybe it should be seperate from this thread.

Well I mean it sort of is. ABED was trying to argue that it didn't fit the story to have Goku stronger than Vegeta, and said that he didn't like that Gohan gets power-ups all the time (though if it was in this thread or another, I'm not sure). I was pointing out that Goku is just as guilty of what he accuses Gohan of, and it seems like ABED likes the story only when it focuses on Goku, since he doesn't like the Buu Saga until the very end when Goku comes back.

[90sDBZ]

Vegeta is never stronger than Goku at that point. He's stronger at base, but Goku has Kaioken. Even with just Kaioken x5 Goku would be 450.000. With x10 he would be close to Freeza's second form. So Goku would destroy Vegeta if he needed to.

However after his nap Vegeta was able to be a threat to 1st Form Freeza who was about 530,000(or something like that). I think that because Vegeta hadn't slept for a long time he had to have that nap before the Recoome zenkai could take full effect. That's the only explanation I can think of for him jumping to such a high level.

I do agree with this though. Vegeta seemed to be much stronger after his nap (since he was facing off Freeza when previously he took a while to take out Jhesse) and he probably hadn't slept in days.

Yeah I agree that with Kaioken Goku was still stronger than Vegeta.

In regards to the other posts there's really no point in arguing who got the most BS powerups. I mean everyone's Zenkais went from being a mere 10,000 increase to powering them up by over 1 million.

[Sshadow5001]

I guess I'm a little biased but since my favourite character is Trunks and I enjoy time travel stuff so I'd say yes it got better.

[ABED]

"Goku didn't actually do that, it's because of a retcon" (trying to make it look like it's not in Goku's character to do this and that somehow he didn't)
I never said that. I said Toriyama wrote the story then contradicted himself, and had to make up a BS excuse which doesn't . I never once said that he didn't write it.

ABED was trying to argue that it didn't fit the story to have Goku stronger than Vegeta, and said that he didn't like that Gohan gets power-ups all the time (though if it was in this thread or another, I'm not sure). I was pointing out that Goku is just as guilty of what he accuses Gohan of, and it seems like ABED likes the story only when it focuses on Goku, since he doesn't like the Buu Saga until the very end when Goku comes back.

No, I said it doesn't make sense storytelling wise that Vegeta is stronger than Goku. I don't like that Gohan constantly gets power ups with no effort. He barely trains, and it's all just handed to him. He's the only one I have a problem with. It's not as interesting to me if the character is passive. Goku isn't a passive character. You'd be wrong about my beef with the Buu arc. Heaven forbid I like Goku. It's perfectly reasonable to think a story is better when a character is present, and that's not even the issue. My problem with the Buu arc is it's too long, a villain that's not that interesting, uninteresting fights, and I don't care for Gotenks. However, I do like the Vegeta/Majin Buu fight, and when Goku comes back into the story.

To your point about me pointing out the 180k, fine, but it doesn't make a lick of sense for Goku to show up and save the day but only be stronger than Vegeta due to Kaio-ken. And I never said I bought Goku's insane power up. For years I thought he went from 180k to 300k, due to a translation error on the Ultimate DBZ Info Site. It made sense because Goku's power increased but not several times over. It was in keeping with all of the other gains characters had made to that point.

I guess Vegeta needed to rest, but I assume the senzu took care of that.

I'll tie this into the true topic by saying all of the insane power ups in this arc does put a damper on the rest of the series because powers go off the scale and every gain is exponential, but the fights don't reflect that. I enjoy the mystery surrounding Cell, so I'm ambivalent towards that arc. The Buu arc is on the long side, the fights aren't particularly good, and the end leaves me cold.

[Duo]

Anyway, let's take it over here.

Yes, the massive power jumps in the Freeza arc are unnecessary. But it also may have to do with Toriyama wanting to be done with that whole subject in the series (look at how much crap it STILL causes).

[Attitudefan]

Well, I think what Dragonball was trying to show us viewers was how absurd relying on power levels are. I mean, doesn't Vegeta say something like that to Jiece before he is killed? The power jumps are unreliable or out of control because relying on power levels is a weakness in combat (that is why Vegeta tells Nappa not to rely on his scouter and leave it behind; hence, Vegeta never using it again). Those jumps are not to be taken seriously when factoring in power levels because the scouters are truly useless! Whether a supposed power level is a million or not, it doesn't really matter since the better fighter will win; in such that Goku trains and works hard but not in vain unlike his opponents thus he gets stronger because his vanity, reliance on others or machinery, etc. doesn't hold him back (unlike with Vegeta, Ten, Freeza, the Cyborgs, Cell, Buu relies on magic, etc).

[Duo]

Well, I think what Dragonball was trying to show us viewers was how absurd relying on power levels are. I mean, doesn't Vegeta say something like that to Jiece before he is killed? The power jumps are unreliable or out of control because relying on power levels is a weakness in combat (that is why Vegeta tells Nappa not to rely on his scouter and leave it behind; hence, Vegeta never using it again). Those jumps are not to be taken seriously when factoring in power levels because the scouters are truly useless! Whether a supposed power level is a million or not, it doesn't really matter since the better fighter will win; in such that Goku trains and works hard but not in vain unlike his opponents thus he gets stronger because his vanity, reliance on others or machinery, etc. doesn't hold him back (unlike with Vegeta, Ten, Freeza, the Cyborgs, Cell, Buu relies on magic, etc).

It's just too bad the numbers didn't get dropped a bit sooner, like before Freeza dropped a number for himself. In fact, his character alone is pretty much responsible for setting off the chain of nonsense, and the near-death power up was plot-abused to make up the established difference.

[Attitudefan]

Well, I think what Dragonball was trying to show us viewers was how absurd relying on power levels are. I mean, doesn't Vegeta say something like that to Jiece before he is killed? The power jumps are unreliable or out of control because relying on power levels is a weakness in combat (that is why Vegeta tells Nappa not to rely on his scouter and leave it behind; hence, Vegeta never using it again). Those jumps are not to be taken seriously when factoring in power levels because the scouters are truly useless! Whether a supposed power level is a million or not, it doesn't really matter since the better fighter will win; in such that Goku trains and works hard but not in vain unlike his opponents thus he gets stronger because his vanity, reliance on others or machinery, etc. doesn't hold him back (unlike with Vegeta, Ten, Freeza, the Cyborgs, Cell, Buu relies on magic, etc).

It's just too bad the numbers didn't get dropped a bit sooner, like before Freeza dropped a number for himself. In fact, his character alone is pretty much responsible for setting off the chain of nonsense, and the near-death power up was plot-abused to make up the established difference.

I do think it would have been cool if Freeza's battle power was kept secret or unknown. I mean, let's just say that no one could know Freeza's level of power because non of the machines could handle it. Does it have to be over a million? No, just more than Ginyu in the story's exposition (but it really doesn't have to be that much since power levels are irrelevant in the end of the day).

[ABED]

Well, I think what Dragonball was trying to show us viewers was how absurd relying on power levels are. I mean, doesn't Vegeta say something like that to Jiece before he is killed? The power jumps are unreliable or out of control because relying on power levels is a weakness in combat (that is why Vegeta tells Nappa not to rely on his scouter and leave it behind; hence, Vegeta never using it again). Those jumps are not to be taken seriously when factoring in power levels because the scouters are truly useless! Whether a supposed power level is a million or not, it doesn't really matter since the better fighter will win; in such that Goku trains and works hard but not in vain unlike his opponents thus he gets stronger because his vanity, reliance on others or machinery, etc. doesn't hold him back (unlike with Vegeta, Ten, Freeza, the Cyborgs, Cell, Buu relies on magic, etc).

It's just too bad the numbers didn't get dropped a bit sooner, like before Freeza dropped a number for himself. In fact, his character alone is pretty much responsible for setting off the chain of nonsense, and the near-death power up was plot-abused to make up the established difference.

Gotta agree here. A remedy here might be that he says that it's so high it can't be measured.

[Saiga]

Well, I think what Dragonball was trying to show us viewers was how absurd relying on power levels are. I mean, doesn't Vegeta say something like that to Jiece before he is killed? The power jumps are unreliable or out of control because relying on power levels is a weakness in combat (that is why Vegeta tells Nappa not to rely on his scouter and leave it behind; hence, Vegeta never using it again). Those jumps are not to be taken seriously when factoring in power levels because the scouters are truly useless! Whether a supposed power level is a million or not, it doesn't really matter since the better fighter will win; in such that Goku trains and works hard but not in vain unlike his opponents thus he gets stronger because his vanity, reliance on others or machinery, etc. doesn't hold him back (unlike with Vegeta, Ten, Freeza, the Cyborgs, Cell, Buu relies on magic, etc).

That's not really what the series says, though. The problem wasn't in using scouters or battle powers, but assuming that those figures were absolute, when fighters like the Earthlings could manipulate their battle power. And Vegeta actually does use his scouter after berating Nappa - he does so to measure the battle powers of Gohan and Goku, because scouters and battle powers ARE useful. He measures Gohan's Masenko so that he can see evidence of the Earthling's manipulating their battle power, and measures Goku first with the knowledge that Goku might still be stronger and second to know how strong he is after powering up. By not falling into the trap of assuming he's always reading their maximum, he is able to make use of the scouter and battle powers.

And it's not really true that the better fighter wins. Piccolo was able to knock Freeza around because of the power his fusion with Nail gave him, Goku was losing to Freeza because he didn't have enough power and then won when he became more powerful. Furthermore, Goku and the others use their ability to sense ki the same way others use scouters - to measure the abilities of their opponents. In fact, the term "battle power" is still used in the manga after scouters and numerical values are no longer present.

If Toriyama was actually trying to make the figures look useless, he should had someone with a lower battle power easily defeat someone stronger than him. That never happens. I think the point Toriyama was trying to make was that the problem was the mentality of the Saiyans and Freeza's men (excluding Vegeta and Ginyu to some extent) rather than the scouters or figures themselves.

[ABED]

I'll give the Buu arc some credit, Buu doesn't just take attack, dust settles, and no damage. Granted, he does heal himself but at least he does get the crap kicked out of him.

[thatdbzguy]

I thought it was agreed upon that power levels are bullshit.

[Insertclevername]

Yes. I think the Freeza arc is my least favorite arc for me. Not that I hate it or anything but I find some the majority of it boring. I like the Cell and Boo arcs despite their faults since they were able to mix things up a bit by introducing new concepts, transformations and locations. I also just like the expanded cast in those two eras than the one found in the Freeza arc.

[Saiga]

I thought it was agreed upon that power levels are bullshit.

Doesn't make it right. A lot of people saying that are just quoting TFS and don't know much better.

Sure, thinking that battle powers have defined, unbending rules for comparisons between battle powers is bullshit, but that's more of a fan thing than anything else.

[thatdbzguy]

I thought it was agreed upon that power levels are bullshit.

Doesn't make it right. A lot of people saying that are just quoting TFS and don't know much better.

Sure, thinking that battle powers have defined, unbending rules for comparisons between battle powers is bullshit, but that's more of a fan thing than anything else.

This thread seems to be showing just how bullshit they are.