Do the Saiyan base forms ever surpass Freeza's strength?

[freezamite]

the base state has a limit that can't be surpassed, and that limit has to be reached in order to become a SSJ (except for the ones that can turn SSJ without training, like Goten or Trunks).
By the way, Freezer was in the Top 5 of DB villains in terms of strength:
Bu > Perfect Cell = Majin Dabra = Freezer (pure strength, in an actual fight both Perfect Cell and Majin Dabra would have been above Freezer) > rest of enemies.

That's not making Goku seem weak by any means considering we're speaking of Goku's weakest form...

Freeza would also drop below Vegeta during the Buu arc as well. He's miles below Majin Vegeta. I'd possibly even say Yakon might be too much for Freeza to handle, but that would be close.

Yes of course he is also below Vegeta (buu arc) or Gohan for example (but despite majin vegeta being some sort of an enemy I don't consider Vegeta as such because he did good things afterwards). Yakon was a good deal below 100% Freezer, he probably was between 4th form Freezer (the one with 530.000 units) or 2nd form Freezer at the very best (the alien one).

Of course, at that part of the series there were plenty of characters stronger than Freezer ever was (Vegeta, Goku, Gohan, SP Cell and also Perfect Cell even if in terms of pure strength they were even, Bu, most of the fusions...), but considering how much the SSJ form could amplify one's power I don't think that for base Goku to be below Freezer is "making him look weaker". I mean, without resorting to any special transformation only Bu and Cell would be above Freezer. None of the saiyans reached that level without transforming, and even Dabra needed to be in "majin" form to reach the brute force that both perfect Cell and Freezer had.

[mAcChaos]

I didn't like that comment from Beerus either.
Makes Feeza seem less weak, but at the same time makes Goku pathetic.

Goku improved a lot since Freeza saga. I don't need numbers, just makes sense to me that after all those years of improvement: Base Goku > Freeza.
In GT, Base Goku vs Freeza and Cell made perfect sense o me. Its like I pictured in my mind. They weren't a challenge anymore.

the base state has a limit that can't be surpassed, and that limit has to be reached in order to become a SSJ (except for the ones that can turn SSJ without training, like Goten or Trunks).
By the way, Freezer was in the Top 5 of DB villains in terms of strength:
Bu > Perfect Cell = Majin Dabra = Freezer (pure strength, in an actual fight both Perfect Cell and Majin Dabra would have been above Freezer) > rest of enemies.

That's not making Goku seem weak by any means considering we're speaking of Goku's weakest form...

How do you get Perfect Cell = Freeza in strength?

[rereboy]

How do you get Perfect Cell = Freeza in strength?

You really should not enable him... His Freeza = Cell theory has been sufficiently and adequately criticized in other topics already.

[Hitiro]

Weights were a big deal for training. Never is it stated that they were a big deal for hiding their Ki. That is just an assumption.

We've only ever seen them fight at their best once the weights are removed. That isn't an assumption.

I didn't say that. I'm saying you're assuming that they used them to hide their Ki specifically or that it was Akira Toriyama's intent for it to seem that way initially till he introduced suppressing. But you can't possibly know what he intended.

Well, tell me why it isn't an assumption? Can you prove it is a fact? There is no point in you saying "not really" when you lack the evidence to prove it. And what does him not even being sure if Goku can become SSJGod have anything to do with this? SSJGod Ki is fundamentally different from regular Ki anyway. Can we be sure Beerus can sense God Ki?

It means he'd need to see him in action to get a feel for his power. Goku was shown teleporting in the same vicinity as Beers while fighting, which would only be possible if he could sense him. Beers also says Goku's God power had gotten even more powerful after reverting. So both sensed each other. Unless we're going to say Goku had a better grasp at sensing God Chi than Beers.

And Goku having Godly Ki sensing means Beerus must have it too? We already know incredibly strong characters can lack sensing abilities. It wouldn't be such an impossible thing for Beerus to not have Godly Ki sensing. Not that I believe Goku was sensing Beerus anyway. I've always been under the assumption that Goku was using one of the other characters as a reference point to teleport. Like Piccolo or Gohan. And actually, Beerus said that when Goku lost his SSJGod he didn't get much weaker. That doesn't necessarily mean that Beerus could sense though. Do you not recall that Goku determined Dabra's level without any sensing? If Goku reverts and is still fighting on par with Beerus then naturally Beerus is going to assume that even though Goku reverted he didn't lose much, if any, power at all.

Except we can only assume things about Beerus wanting to see Goku's power up close. He was going to leave for Earth before Goku asked him to spar. It doesn't seem like Beerus actually considered it in the first place.

Knows Goku can transform, see's Goku fighting in a transformed state. Goku "doesn't appear" to be strong enough to beat Freeza, but he can as a Super Saiyan. Super Saiyan God was obviously the main focus, but he still seemed interested in Super Saiyan.

Where in the movie did Beerus show interest in SSJ? The only thing I saw from him was that he was interested in fighting SSJGod. Can you tell me where in the movie gives you the opinion he was interested in SSJ too? Because as far as I saw it is never even hinted at.

We have an example of Beerus needing to fight Goku when the Ki sensing is completely different for a God. So no. We can't use a statement for God Ki to back up a regular Ki scenario. We already know there is a different way to sense God Ki and as far as we can confirm from the movie only Whis seems to have the ability to distinguish God Ki from regular Ki.

Beers tells us Goku's gotten much more powerful after he reverts from Super Saiyan God, so he did sense him. Or gained that knowledge through fighting him. Even using the Boo saga, we see that Kibito is the only one shown capable of sensing Kaioshin while the others couldn't.

Again, Beerus said that Goku's power hadn't fallen much despite returning to normal. But that means nothing because if someone is still fighting as well as they were when they were under the effect of something it is natural to assume they retained that power. Like if Goku was having a hard time fighting Freeza, turned SSJ and then lost it, then fought him perfectly fine then one would assume that Goku retained whatever power he received by going SSJ. And Kibito being able to sense the Kaioshin really means nothing when you consider every individual is different. Just because one person can do something doesn't mean that another can just as easily.

And with the "considering he was on his best behaviour" is a poor excuse really.

No, it really isn't. He's constantly watching what he says to Beers. That certainly isn't the behavior of someone who'd be willing to correct someone they consider above them in status.

Goku in no way considered Beerus above him. He was only being polite because Kaio made him. But that doesn't really mean much. He can still correct him in a polite way.

He can still correct Beerus, it isn't going to cause a problem.

No way of knowing that. Goku watches what he says to Beers, so I see no reason why he'd be quick to correct him.

Considering it is misleading I'd see a reason to correct him. Goku had already stumbled a lot trying to speak politely. No reason for him to not do it again. Even when he was asking to spar.

I mean if he is going to ask for a sparring match then telling Beerus that he is actually suppressing wouldn't be a problem at all.

Even though carefully worded how he asked for said spar?

And he can't word his correction of Beerus statement correctly? Even if you assume that wouldn't be the case. Before he worded it correctly he already stumbled I don't see why he couldn't have done it with the correcting thing if it was a thing.

And out of universe the creators of the story would not have something stated that isn't true unless they were going to have it discredited later. The fact that the topic is never re-visited or corrected in the whole movie is proof that the statement isn't wrong.

No. It shows that the statement doesn't matter in the big picture because Goku did beat Freeza as a Super Saiyan. Keeping it in-universe, Beers likely wouldn't even be comparing him to 100% Freeza in the first place. The only thing we know for sure is that he's referring to Freeza's power in general.

It doesn't matter in the big picture. Any literature, unless it is deliberately trying to screw with you like something like LOST, goes through pain-staking effort to convey the correct information. Even if a character who assumes something is later proven wrong or admits to being wrong later. That's just how it works. You can't honestly tell me that Battle of Gods is the exception to the rule because of the "bigger picture." In-Universe why would Beerus not be comparing him to 100% Freeza for? Freeza had to be in his original form at some point in the timeline before he had his power concealed through transformations.

I mean name a point in any of the original story where a claim is made that is not discredited later? Goku says he couldn't beat Fat Boo yet later he says he could have if he really tried for instance. It's story-telling 101. You don't feed the audience misinformation without the intent of correcting it lately.

Kibito never had a chance to see that Gohan's power was "far beyond" their imagination. So Kaioshin's basically saying Super Saiyan Gohan was far more powerful than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. Beers quote is as loose as Goku's "probably as strong as Cell" quote on Dabra. None of these things are exact, nor does the story make it clear which is actually being used as the baseline. Goku thinks Dabra's around the level of Cell in general, Beers thinks Goku's Base wouldn't be enough to defeat Freeza in general.

It seems like you misunderstand my point. It's my fault for not explaining things. I mean name a claim that isn't correct not being discredited later. Like the Goku not being able to beat Fat Boo example. That claim was incorrect and before he fights Pure Boo he discredits that claim by saying he could have actually won. There is no claim in the whole manga that isn't rectified by either a character correcting it or a plot proving that it's wrong. Case and point, the whole Goku can't beat Fat Boo. Debunked by Goku himself. I honestly don't see how this whole Kibito never had a chance to see that Gohan's power was "far beyond" their imagination comment means that the Kaioshin is saying SSJ Gohan > SSJ2 Gohan. It's merely saying Kibito ever had a chance to see what Gohan is actually capable of. Which isn't incorrect. It's actually spot on.

How does this prove anything exactly? The Kaioshin has terrible sensing abilities anyway. He restrained SSJ2 Gohan and still thought that all of them needed to gang up on Pui-Pui to beat him. Either base Vegeta > SSJ2 Gohan at the tournament or SSJ2 Gohan suppressed to base level or the Kaioshin believed Pui-Pui was more powerful than a SSJ2 Gohan. None of these points make sense.

No, he didn't. He thought all of them had to attack Yakon. He just wonders why Vegeta is fighting by himself because he's not sure Vegeta can actually win alone. The only power he was aware of was Gohan's. He had a sense about Goku, and Vegeta's power was a total mystery to him. Once Vegeta destroys Pui-Pui, he expresses surprise at his power. Hardly anything to do with terrible sensing abilities. Piccolo actually displays just that in the Boo saga.

The statement itself by the Kaioshin makes it sound like none of them can win by themselves. If he was only aware of Gohan's strength he would have said to let Gohan handle it. And I'm sorry but I can't accept that the Kaioshin was only aware of Gohan's power. Considering he knew what a SSJ is and that Goku beat Freeza. There is no way that he only thought Gohan was capable of what he was.

And what is wrong with that? Should they stand around at full power and draw attention to themselves?

I'm talking about the part after Goku finds an empty wasteland for them to fight. The Androids already knew who they were and what they were doing there. Hiding is no longer apart of the plan. I'm guessing you're confusing the parts. Anyway, Yamcha says they can't sense them because they're "not fighting"--and what do you know, they finally sense them once Goku goes Super Saiyan.

Yamcha: "Damn!! They're not fighting yet, so they're holding their Chi down! We can't tell where they are!!"

Trunks: "Chi!! I feel battle Chi!! Of course!! They must be fighting somewhere else!!"

So fighting or having a noticeable power-up is how they're often shown to bring out their full-power after the Raditz saga.

If you're on about them standing there with the androids, as I pointed out before, it is strategic to suppress when you're just about to fight. To deceive the opponent. Of course what Yamcha says makes sense. Goku and the others are deliberately suppressing their Ki before battle to give them the element of surprise. It's a strategic thing. If it weren't for the fact that it was a life or death battle then Goku wouldn't need to suppress before the fight. Now would he?

The Androids would know that they are coming if they had a sensing feature like #16. Even when the opponent is right in front of them they should feign a lower level of ability as it gives them the element of surprise allowing them to finish the battle easier if they catch the opponent off-guard.

But considering Goku goes Super Saiyan and launches an all-out direct attack, that "element of surprise" example goes right out the window. They'd also have no way of knowing the Androids could even sense their presence.

Well, the fact that Piccolo says Goku is rushing the battle for some reason is why that element of surprise is gone. That is the only reason the element of surprise is gone in this example. Because Goku had a reason for rushing the battle. Yes, they have no way of knowing the Androids could even sense their presence. But why would they not assume it? They've dealt with scouters before. It is a safe bet that they would deliberately hold back because this could be a possibility.

I see powering up as them pushing themselves to their maximum as quick as possible rather than let it get back to full at a casual rate. Powering up seems to be an instantaneous thing.

It's usually through a drawn out power-up or fighting when the depth of their power is sensed.

Only transformation power-ups, like Goku going SSJ3 or Trunks going SSJG3, and attack charging are needlessly drawn-out. If you check the power-ups that aren't transformations in the manga then they're usually[/i] pretty quick, actually. Goku going at full power against Cell. Cell going at full power against Gohan. SSJ2 Vegeta going full power against Goku. The only time it can possibly be said that a power-up was long is against Ginyu. But Goku hit 90,000 pretty much instantly and anything after that is just his Kaioken battle power. Even that, while being the slowest, is still pretty fast.

Exactly why suppressing Ki is important. Do you really think Cell would have stuck around had he known how strong Piccolo truly was? Suppressing Ki only serves as an advantage. In any case. I really don't see why this point is still in debate.

That's still an assumption. Piccolo isn't even sure Cell can understand his language, much less the ability to completely suppress Chi. With that, it can easily be deduced that Piccolo believed Cell was incapable of sensing Chi. It also goes along with the logic that they don't walk around at full-power, as it'd be pretty pointless.

Piccolo only determined that Cell possibly couldn't speak after he saw him. Prior that he just assumed something powerful was going around wiping out cities. So why wouldn't Piccolo suppress just in case it was a being with the ability to sense. It is clear that the fighters, in the face of uncertainty, would approach a problem like this with caution.

When has large stature meant anything in Dragon Ball? Goku, Piccolo, Vegeta and Gohan all thought the Kaioshin was something. Only Kuririn judges the Kaioshin by looks.

Yeah. A mysterious feeling because they couldn't be sensed otherwise.

The main characters understand that these two are powerful. That is obvious. It has nothing to do with size or stature.

That is just an example. I'm just saying their lifting abilities means nothing unless they're fighting in a competition of lifting stuff. A normal guy could probably beat a weight lifter in a fight too if he's done a bit of fighting.

And I'm saying it means everything here because there's literally nothing else to judge Kibito on.

You honestly can't say it means everything because there's nothing else to judge Kibito on. Because we don't know whether Kibito beats Gohan in other areas. It is really just a possibility. Gohan seems to think he'd struggle and as far as I'm aware the main characters have been pretty spot on in their beliefs throughout this arc. Unless Kibito or Gohan rectified this then there is no way to say for certain even if Kibito can't lift as much as Gohan. I mean you wouldn't just assume that Teen Goku and Roshi are equals just because they can both bust a moon. Now would you? If Kibito could lift the sword it doesn't mean that Gohan couldn't easily beat him in his regular form.

Lack of evidence is not evidence. It's like saying Kuririn could beat Kibitio because Kibito has not shown anything besides healing and both of them have never fought each other.

Krillin's not in this comparison. It's about Gohan and Kibito.

That's the point. Unless Gohan and Kibito fight or there is a statement admitting Kibito couldn't fight Gohan then it's up in the air. You can't just state that Kibito has no chance against Gohan simply because he doesn't have lifting strength on par with Gohan. If they were fighting a Sumo match I guess lifting strength would be more relevant. But they aren't Sumo's.

Akira Toriyama says that their are limits to physical strength and the only way to overcome that is through Ki. But if you're physical strength limit is higher than another individual obviously you're going to have a higher physical strength with the same amount of Ki. This is why characters like Burta, despite being as powerful as the other Ginyu force members, is faster. Because he has a higher speed limit than the others which is further amplified by his Ki.

Even with that, there's still no mention of Reacoom's strength limit and how it compares to Butta and Jheese. All we know is Butta's faster than them, nothing more. How their strength compares is totally debatable. I think Butta's speed is just a natural part of his mutation. Like how Gurd's able to use psychic powers and stop time.

Why exactly would they have the same strength limit? Even assuming that Recoom isn't a character that has a higher strength limit than the others. There are doing to be numerous people at similar levels who have different physical limits. Are you going to tell me that someone with a battle power of 10 because they've trained themselves to the very limit in lifting strength is going to just be equal to a martial artist with a battle power of 10 that has trained their speed and strength equally?

So you're saying that every person has the same physical strength limit? We know that isn't true. Everyone in the world have traits specific to them that are better than others. If I train my lifting strength to my limit and you train your physical strength to the limit you may have a better limit than me. Or I may have a better limit than you. Goku also outspeeds Ginyu despite being weaker.

No, I'm saying we have nothing indicating what Reacoom's strength level is, how it compares to Butta and Jhese, or what that limit is. For all we know, they could all have the same strength level, with Butta being the only one with far greater speed because it's natural to him.

Recoom may not have a strength level exceeding Burta or Jheese. But that doesn't mean he can't. As I've pointed out many times there are people who are just better at people than others. Goku is a prime example of a character with superior speed to someone stronger than him. Can't really blame his superior speed on mutation because he isn't actually a mutant.

So does that mean speed is a special ability for Goku?

Pretty much. Not in the same way it is for Butta, though. Goku acquired the speed from his gravity training:

Then I guess characters can gain lifting strength from certain training as well? So are you admitting that people of the same battle power can have varying stats or are you just saying they can only be faster than each other? Seems a bit weird that only speed is a factor if you're saying the latter.

Context: after Ginyu steals Goku’s body
Ginyu: “Fuhahahaha…! This body’s even faster!”

Goku's naturally faster than Ginyu.

Then there can be characters that are naturally better at lifting than others? Case and point Kibito can't lift as naturally as Gohan can but that doesn't necessarily mean he is weakling.

Why can there only be individuals that have a special ability in speed?

Ginyu says Butta's speed is #1, as if the ability is totally unique to him. Of course we know Butta likely wouldn't be faster than someone like Freeza, but Ginyu boasted about it as if it was his specialty.

This didn't really answer what I was asking. Obviously Burta is a fast character. But Goku is also faster than Ginyu who is actually more powerful than him in battle power. But the point you seemed to be making before was that speed can change from individual to individual but as far as strength is concerned it is completely tied to battle power so characters of a same battle power level will be the same strength physically. You can't really agree that characters can be better than others in other things without proving the point that just because Gohan is better at lifting doesn't necessarily make Kibito a weakling.

We also have Gohan later in the manga claim that even if his strength isn't enough against Boo that he is still confident in his speed as he tries to run away. I guess Gohan has a special ability for speed too?

It just means he was confident in his speed. We don't know why Gohan thought he was faster. Maybe he thought Fat Boo's size would make him too slow? Piccolo thought the same about 3rd form Freeza being too slow to catch him. Maybe he thought Freeza's power increased with his transformation while his speed stayed the same? Doesn't really matter, though. Both Gohan and Piccolo were way off.

Gohan also apparently increased his arm strength after swinging around the Z sword. His Ki is never mentioned to increase. Goku questions whether his physical increase will allow him to beat Boo.

Except Kaioshin says "If he’s acquired that much power in his regular state, then if he becomes a Super Saiyan it will become an even more substantial power-up!" So his overall power increased from the Z-Sword training.

Well yeah, obviously Gohan is going to be stronger in SSJ. His Ki would have increased and affected the strength he gained from swining the Z-Sword. We also don't know what kind of increases SSJ has on strength as well as Ki.

We also have things like the SEG which tell us what the training affects. If strength is just based on Ki then why are their strength increases along with Ki in the SEG too?

I think Chi is a consistent placement of ones strength. More often than not, I feel like more Chi gives you more strength, speed, durability.

The statement by Akira Toriyama in the SEG guide says that there are physical limits and that to surpass them you must increase your Ki. Given this statement how would a character who hasn't reached their physical limits fair against a character who has reached their physical limits even though they have the same Ki? Oob is a scrawny kid without muscle. Do you think he'd be at the same strength if he increased his muscle mass but his Ki stayed the same? There is clearly going to be a strength difference between himself that is lower than his physical limits and himself that has reached his physical limits.

Piccolo: “The way the big one cowered…that must mean that the little one is even more powerful. It’s hopeless!”

Piccolo assumes Nappa is more powerful based on the fact that he's bigger. Goku also assumes Yakon is slower because of his size. So yeah.

Well, this line by Piccolo doesn't necessarily mean Piccolo assumed that Nappa was more powerful. It could mean that Piccolo assumed that Vegeta was just as powerful as Nappa. But having seen how Nappa cowered he realised Vegeta was stronger. I mean despite Recoom's size you would imagine that him, Burta and Jheese are all as strong as each other. As for Goku I can't explain this. He is usually the least likely character to judge on appearances given the opponents he's faced with huge sizes.

I guess according to your opinion Gohan would also think Spopovich would be tough as well.

Considering he saw that Videl's attacks were knocking him around....I wouldn't think that. More than anything shown about Kibito.

Well I meant before that. Gohan didn't think Videl would lose to him. He never considered their difference in size as a problem.

All 4 of them clearly noticed something about both the Kaioshin and Kibito. So I'm sorry but it's ludicrous to think that size has anything to do with Gohan's assumptions.

A feeling. We know none of them were going by power. Vegeta later says Kaioshin's power was overrated, so I'm inclined to believe that's all it was.

Well, Vegeta asks Goku if he thought at any point did the Kaioshin seem impressive. That tells me that they never thought the Kaioshin was impressive. Maybe in terms of base Saiyan's they are but as SSJ's the Kaioshin is really nothing. They still thought that both Kibito and Kaioshin were different from the others and were not to be taken lightly. Even if they aren't impressive.

Never established anywhere? Have you been reading my comments or just glancing at them? You're just ignoring two points that are pretty glaring. Are you saying that Burta isn't faster than Recoom despite having similar battle powers? Are you saying that Goku isn't faster than Ginyu despite Ginyu having a superior battle power? Are you saying that a character who is SSJG3 vs a SSJ2 with the exact same battle power would both have the same stats?

Was actually talking about Reacoom having greater strength than Butta not being established anywhere.........

Even if Recoom isn't superior in strength that doesn't change the fact that characters have varying stats despite having similar battle powers. I find it hard to believe that only speed is a stat that can be different from others while being at the same level. I mean up above you say that because Gohan increased in strength his SSJ form will increase his strength purely because of Ki. But speed also increases with Ki yet it is the only stat can be varied? Both speed and strength are increased when Ki is increased yet why is it that only speed can be different when two characters are the same level? Why is it that only strength is tied down to increasing when Ki is increased?

People don't have different physiques, muscles and limits on their bodies. Do you honestly think if Master Roshi had the same Ki as Recoom he would have the same physical strength as him despite having hardly any muscles?

Reacoom should be stronger, but we'd have no way of knowing that without a comparison of some sort. Same with Jheese. Based on what you're saying, Reacoom should have much greater strength than Jheese because he has bigger muscles, but there's no way to tell without seeing a display of their strength.

Well, if you take away Ki all you have are physical stats. And if one character has reached their physical limits in strength and another character hasn't there is obviously going to be a disparity between the two individuals. If the two individuals have the same Ki it should be no different.

What about someone like Oob who has the Ki of Pure Boo but lacks any muscles. I guess he still has the strength of Boo?

There's no way to tell. Not like Kid Boo had a lot of muscle himself. We also see Oob fight on-par with God Goku when he was enraged, so I'd say he does have Kid Boo's strength.

Pure Boo actually had muscle if you were to check. When he is pushing the Genki Dama back they're clearly visible. You can also see from his chest and back definition that he has muscle. Oob however is from a third world village. You can see his rib cage.

Ki does increase strength but if you don't have less muscles or you have different strength limits, because that is a thing, then how can you possibly be on par with someone who has muscles and has trained their body to their physical limits which may be superior to yours? We know your physical stats are affected by your physique because SSJG3 shows you can lose speed from bulking up which would give you strength.

That has more to do with the nature of the transformation than physical stats alone. Yakon is big and bulky, but has enough speed to keep up with Goku. The physique isn't everything.

Perhaps because Yakon had made sure to keep his speed up? Yes, physique isn't everything because as long as you train your stats to the limit you'll be comparable to others of a similar Ki level. But saying that individuals can't have more strength than others at a similar Ki level is like saying individuals can't have more speed than others at a similar Ki level. Because they are both stats synonymous with increasing your Ki.

Ginyu believes Goku's speed may be greater than his despite estimating Goku's battle power at 85,000. And he says that Goku is probably at 85,000 after he see's Goku's speed. So I'm sorry but that just isn't the case. There would be no need for the comment if Ginyu didn't honestly believe it. And he certainly wouldn't have said it if he was just not fighting at his maximum. Because if Goku was faster than him while he wasn't trying then why even bring it up if you can still go faster?

Yeah. If Ginyu thinks Goku is holding-back, how does it make sense to assume Ginyu is fighting all-out? He says he can "freely alter" his Battle Power, so I see no reason why that'd be mentioned unless he was doing that in battle. Goku's naturally faster than Ginyu. Maybe the gravity training is why he had gotten so fast.

There have been many statements through the manga commenting on speed, at least. Are these characters all naturally fast? Or did they train to get that speed like runner would? Cell says in the fight against Gohan that he'd go all-out in speed, at least. So even if Ginyu is holding back battle power, given what Cell says, he should still be able to go all-out in speed and be slower than Goku.

You misunderstand. I'm saying he is gauging his physical traits to see if they're the cause for Goku being able to beat Freeza as Goku's Ki isn't enough to beat Freeza unless Goku has some sort of physical trait that greatly exceeds what his Ki indicates. Like Goku being faster than Ginyu above.

And I'm saying he's gauging Goku's physical traits to see if Goku is all that he'd made out to be. How would Beers estimate Goku's speed by looking?

Their is an ideal muscle ratio for runners to run fast. That is why you don't see people that look like weight lifters running in marathons or in the 100m sprint. I don't see why Beerus couldn't see if Goku has specific traits like speed or muscles that indicate the most efficient punching power.

Goku wasn't being respectful when he asked to spar. Now was he? There is no reason why telling Beerus he isn't at full power would be disrespectful.

Goku respectfully asked for the spar. He was even careful in how he phrased that.

Not at the start of asking him. And he can always carefully phrase that he is currently suppressing his battle power. I really don't see why he can ask for a sparring match and it not be a problem but then he is not allowed to comment on something.

I honestly don't see why you can say that. There is also the fact that there would be no out of universe reason to maintain the claim that Base Goku is weaker than Freeza if it wasn't true. Because as I said in a comment above that is disinformation which is never done in story telling unless they are going to correct it later. Like Goku apparently not being able to beat Fat Boo. And have they corrected it in the movie? No. So therefore we must assume it is correct as nothing disagree's with the information.

The movie just tells us that a relaxed Goku doesn't appear to be capable of beating Freeza. It's actually correct. You have to look at the situation. Goku isn't powered-up or fighting, merely relaxed and talking. Beers doesn't need to know the full-extent of his power to make that statement.

The movie tells us that Goku doesn't appear to be capable of beating Freeza. You're really reading too much into it. Even assuming Goku isn't powered up, there have been numerous occasions in the manga where characters have judged accurately the strength of characters that haven't been at full power or suppressed. Why would, or should, this be any different?

My point still stands either way. The only way for Vegeta to determine if Gohan had gotten weaker was by him going SSJ because he never sensed base Gohan 7 years ago. So it doesn't matter if Vegeta was right. Your point was that Vegeta couldn't discern Gohan had gotten weaker by his Ki until he turned SSJ. Which is understandable because Vegeta never know what Gohan's base Ki was 7 years ago. All he can do is speculate until Gohan turns SSJ.

My main point in even bringing Vegeta up was that he was judging Gohan superficially. That's what I think Beers is doing.

Not really. Vegeta's judgement was based on an observation of Gohan. Both the fact that he thinks he hasn't been training and the way he looks physically. Whereas Beerus checks Goku's muscles and more than likely could sense Goku's Ki even with it possibly being suppressed he could still easily discern that Goku wouldn't have a chance at full power in base form. Kuririn also made an observation of Cell's real power when he was kicked. It only took him feeling Cell's leg across his head to know his incredible power.

I've basically proved above that Goku out-sped Ginyu. Are you saying Goku couldn't be faster than Freeza giving him the advantage?

Where's the advantage? The master of speed, Butta, even tells us that speed isn't enough to win the battle. If Goku was faster than Freeza, he'd still eventually lose because of the power difference and tiring himself out.

Well if we're talking about a stark difference in power then of course speed isn't going to be enough. But Ginyu thought that Goku with an assumed battle power of 85,000 would be a good fight for his 120,000 after seeing Goku's speed. If this stands to reason then if base Goku is at 85 million he should still put up a decent fight against Freeza's 120 million battle power.

How do you know the previous special establishes this? Where?

Tarble thinks Goku's Battle Power is quite low when he reads his relaxed power. Once Goku actually starts to power-up, Tarble is able to see how strong he really is.

Goku is going SSJ when Tarble reads Goku's battle power the second time. So I don't think this is reliable evidence. For all we know Tarble was basing Goku's battle power against Freeza's. Because the line I saw said "Excuse me, but I don't think you have the combat strength." Abo and Kado are both far an above Freeza according to Tarble's statement. Though whether this was about first form Freeza or not is debatable. So yes. Goku's battle power is quite low in comparison to Freeza.

Beers can sense regular Ki. When is it ever proven he can sense Godly Ki?

Already said why above. Unless you think Goku somehow became more advanced at sensing Godly Chi than Beers in such a short amount of time?

I've always assumed Goku was using someone else to teleport around Beerus.

As I pointed out above it's been proving that sensing regular Ki and Godly Ki are completely different kettles of fish. So you can't use that as a point really. Is it that odd that he doesn't need to see someone power-up or fight to get a better assessment?

Yes, I can. I think it's odd. Especially when he knows nothing of Goku's ability outside of secondhand information and recorded footage of Super Saiyan Goku's fight.

Then I guess all the other times the Z-Senshi have accurately judged their opponents are odd then?

Freeza estimated that he'd only need 50% of his power to beat Goku, not only was he right he is a character that has no sensing ability whatsoever. Ginyu also estimated Goku's battle power at 85,000 without any Ki sensing ability. Even if you're assumption that Goku's not at full strength was correct. Why can't Beerus estimate Goku's true battle power? Even Karin could more or less estimate Cell's battle power and judged him as stronger than Goku.

Ginyu not only fought Goku, but knew what he did to the Ginyu Force. That's enough for an estimation of Goku's ability. Freeza fought with Goku for a good while and saw what he was capable of. Freeza had no way of sensing his Kaioken x10, but he was confident that his extreme power-up would be far more powerful than anything Goku could do. It's just a matter of Freeza being overly confident in his power.

My point is that characters without the ability to sense Ki have been shown to accurately determine their opponents strength, even if it is mid-way through battle. So I would assume a character that can actually sense Ki would have a better grasp of someones strength than one without the ability.

Karin had a sense. He knew what was going on, so he most likely saw Cell easily defeat Vegeta. That would mean Karin had already seen Cell in action to have an understanding of his capabilities. Goku even thought Cell was stronger, even though he admits there's no way to know until Cell starts to fight seriously. Beers isn't comparable one bit. Karin not only saw Cell's power in action, but he also saw Goku show about 50% of his power for him to even compare the two. Therefore, Karin at least has information to make an assessment. Beers has none.

Karin saw a highly suppressed Cell in action. That really means nothing. Karin's feat of gauging Cell is still impressive and very accurate given the circumstances. Even Kuririn managed to determine Cell's power from receiving one single kick.

No, it is your opinion that Goku and the others went about controlling their powers differently. You can't just state it as fact without any legitimate evidence. It's not like we have Goku saying that they don't need to use weighted clothing to hide their battle powers any more or something. Just because Goku and the others use these other elements now doesn't neglect from the fact that Goku and Piccolo demonstrated their full battle powers while doing nothing. Just because they don't go around wearing weighted clothing any more doesn't make it any more or less legit.

How is it my opinion when it's shown? Everything doesn't need to be stated. We don't see anyone fight at their best without removing their weights in Dragon Ball. That weighted robe Old Daimao removed clearly allowed him to demonstrate power and speed way beyond Goku's. Same with Goku against Tenshinhan in the 23rd Budokai. Weights are great for training, but since they can't fight all-out with them, it's a limiter to an extent. Can they fight at their best with weights on?

You're making the assumption that Goku is using his weights to control his battle power when there is no legitimate evidence. I have no problem with you being of the opinion that, that is the case. But don't make it out as if it was intended by Akira Toriyama as if you know how the man's mind works. All we know from the manga is Goku and the characters use weighted clothes to train. And I suggest you check the manga because Old Daimao removed his robe and it was never indicated to be weighted. Maybe it was in the anime but in the manga he just removes it to fight without any hindrances. You don't see a dent in the ground or anything. I'm not sure where you got that it was weighted from though.

Which means what? I've proven that Goku was at full power at a point in the series while doing nothing. That's all that matters. So you can't say it isn't a thing or say "it's a thing of the past." It wouldn't do him any good to do this later in the manga anyway because suppressing is actually a strategic advantage in fights. And seeing as we only see them in fights then their battle powers being less than full makes perfect sense for the rest of the series.

Which means that method is no longer comparable to what's shown later.

There is no proof of that because we never get any battle power statements outside of fights which it would be key to suppress your Ki in for strategic value.

The only time I see why they would use this other than not fighting is when they need to restrain to prevent breaking things. Like with the slapping Chi Chi through a wall. Other than that if they're standing about on a planet, like Kaio's, there is no need to restrain yourself.

Why can't Goku casually walk around Kaio's planet without restraining himself? I'm sure Goku's pretty relaxed when he goes to ask Kaio where the new planet Namek is. I don't think being on Kaio's world changes anything.

I think you messed up here. That is exactly my point. Goku can stand on the Kaio planet without restraining himself because he doesn't have to worry about breaking or damaging something. Surely you meant to say why can't he casually walk around while restraining himself?

Even assuming he isn't suppressed there is no reason why Beerus can't determine his battle power with what he is currently sensing. Three characters have already done pretty good estimates of other characters and two of them lacked the ability to sense. And again, disinformation if we aren't given the correct details. It's like the characters saying Kuririn can beat them all in BOG and then we never get anything that disproves that. So we'd have to believe the writers intended use to believe Kuririn was god in BOG.

Ginyu knows Goku decimated the Ginyu Force. He doesn't need to sense to understand he'd have to be a good deal above them to do that. Freeza fought Goku for a good while and knew his reserve power wouldn't have been enough. Freeza still had to fight Goku a good bit to come to that conclusion, though. With how useless Kaioken x10 looked, it's pretty easy to understand why he's that confident. Beers still has little to nothing to go on with Goku.

Both characters determined Goku's strength perfectly while Goku was still holding back. Beerus should only need to feel his muscles and sense his Ki. Kuririn managed to sense the full extent of Cell's power just by being tapped by Cell's leg. And Karin determined that even if Goku was at full power Cell would still beat him despite the fact that Cell was extremely suppressed against Vegeta.

Doesn't mean there isn't another threat on the planet more powerful than him. Enter Ginyu. Enter Freeza. It's best not to show all of your cards. Had Goku not have had the Kaioken then hiding his power is an effective method against a more powerful enemy. Much like how it was very effective for Goku to teleport with his Kamehameha to destroy Cell's body. Because Cell was superior.

I think staying at full-power doing nothing is a waste of energy, which is why I believe Goku was constantly suppressing instead of staying at full-power. It's exerting their powers for essentially no reason at all. The instant Kamehameha was just something Cell wasn't expecting.

Then how do humans get by considering they are constantly at their max Ki output? Ki is really only a persons energy and we walk around with it all day. I don't see how Goku and the rest of the characters would be wasting it unless they were actually using it for attacks.

Possibly because he raised it before slashing Freeza's men? As I said above unless there is proof that attacks are directly linked to power increase then this is up in the air. Because as far as I'm concerned Vegeta makes it sound like Goku was the one who was increasing his power before he attacks. Not that the attacks themselves were the cause.

Goku's power behind the attack were the reason. It's why Vegeta says Goku's elbow on Reacoom wasn't a normal attack.

Of course it wasn't a normal attack. Goku increased his battle power, hit with his elbow and then decreased his battle power after the blow. Doesn't change the assumption that their battle power is increased before the blow. Nothing disagrees with this statement apart from your differing opinion that it was the blow that increased the battle power and not Goku doing it himself.

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say here. Are you saying that Trunks Ki only went up after he finished the attack?

I think Trunks powered-up as he attacked Freeza's henchmen.

But an equally plausible perspective would be that Trunks increased his power before the attacks.

Whether it increased all in one go before attacking them or whether it only increased a bit then increased a lot after the attacking is debatable. There is also the fact that there would be a disconnect if they randomly placed characters sensing Trunks before he attacked. Furthermore, the sensing scene could have happened in conjunction with Trunks attacking. Manga's like any concept of time anyway so it isn't unreasonable that this whole sensing business was happening as the Ki's were getting wiped out. Honestly it would be weird that it took them that long to realise the Ki vanishing anyway.

I believe once they sensed Trunks's huge Chi appear, the others quickly disappeared.

Again, this can equally be seen from the other perspective. We don't have enough to go on to say it for certain.

Missing the point again so I'm not going to bother with this point again. I don't know how I can explain it any better. They'd be at full power end of no power-ups or fighting to reach max.

So can they fight at full-power with weighted clothes?

Did I say that? No. I said that you wouldn't be arguing this point if they hadn't of been wearing weighted clothing. Because the fact of the matter is that they had their full powers on display without any weighted clothing on. Thus it possible for them to be walking about with their full power on display.

Because the scouters give omnipotence now? How is Vegeta supposed to determine what was scouted was blasts and not people.

If Vegeta was listening closely to the battle, he would've heard Raditz say their Battle Powers were increasing in a single point. Or he would've heard him read Gohan's Battle Power.

You realise Gohan's battle power increased to over 1,000 without Raditz saying anything. Right? How is Vegeta supposed to determine this attack was from Gohan? Also. Did Raditz say anything about Ki attacks? No. So would Vegeta know that their battle powers were rising because of Ki attacks? Vegeta heard him say they could increase their battle powers by concentrating their power into a single spot. Does that necessarily indicate a Ki attack? If you believe so. Can you prove it?

As far as we know the scouters only determine battle powers from sources. They don't provide that much information as far as we've seen. Unless these scouters somehow give full battle readouts explaining in detail what was "over 1,000", like attacks, or not. Which I imagine they wouldn't read anyway, then I don't see why Vegeta's statements even matter.

Vegeta heard Raditz's battle on earth and Zarbon knows that Goku and Gohan's Battle Powers are inferior to Vegeta's. Based on what we know, If Vegeta knows that their Battle Powers exceeded 1,000 at some point during the battle, he would've heard what Raditz had to say on the matter.

Well, it is easy for Zarbon to know Goku and Gohan's battle powers. Considering Vegeta verbally said about the two Saiyan's with inferior battle powers. Raditz neglected to mention Gohan as the source of one of the over 1,000 battle powers when he attacked. And we don't even know how much of the information the Saiyan's got or whether the information they obtained was dialogue from the battle or some report.

So for Raditz quotes he could easily be talking about the amount of power the attacks increased. It doesn't have to suggest that he found their power increasing through attacks odd.

Raditz: “He…He can raise his battle power by concentrating it into a single point!!!”

Where specifically in that quote is it focusing on the amount of power? That sounds like he's noting the ability to concentrate it rather than power output. That certainly doesn't sound like a common thing he's seen from other battles.

Seems more like a surprise that they can do it on such an inferior world rather than him never seeing it before.

As for Vegeta his scouter went off before Gohan even initiated an attack. So it could be in regard to his power increase before the subsequent attack.

But Vegeta doesn't say it until after he gathers power for the Masenko.

And? Just because he doesn't say anything straight away must mean that your opinion is correct? I'm not so sure it works that way.

Yet Dabra determined their energy was marvellous despite them being surpressed? Yet Beerus can't determine Goku's level in a "relaxed state" as you say? Okay then.

Well, their methods are different.

If their methods are different then you can't really say that Beerus can't have the ability to gauge Goku's level in a relaxed stated. Because Beerus might have methods different from other people too. Especially with the muscle groping.

He knows about Freeza, he knows Goku beat him. He knew of Goku and his strength. I don't see how he wouldn't know they could go SSJ's.

He only heard stories. That doesn't mean he knows everything about them.

Except Kibito asks Gohan to show him Super Saiyan? He literally knows what it's called. I have a hard time believing that the Kaioshin only knows that Gohan is a Super Saiyan even though he expressly knows that Freeza was defeated by Goku, at least, as he says that he's heard about Son Goku.

They knew Gohan could go SSJ.

Because he turned Super Saiyan while Videl was getting pummeled.

So the fact that Kibito knows what it's called should just be omitted then? They clearly knew nothing about what a SSJ was before hand.

The Kaioshin should not be surprised that Vegeta could destroy Pui-Pui considering Gohan went SSJ and SSJ2.

What does Gohan's ability to transform have to do with Vegeta? He knew the Saiyans were making a game out of it and fighting alone. Kaioshin didn't want Vegeta to give any unnecessary energy to Boo, which is why he was cautious about Vegeta. His reaction alone is enough to show he had no clue how strong Vegeta was.

The fact that they already knew what a SSJ was? It's understandable if they just happened to see it and wondered what the form was but Kibito specifically knows the name of the transformation. Along with the fact that the Kaioshin knows that they dealt with Freeza. The fact that he was so astonished by Vegeta is ridiculous considering the circumstances. If the Kaioshin didn't know Vegeta could have turned SSJ then he could have at least said that they should let Gohan handle things considering he has already seen him transform.

Yet the Kaioshin thought it would be necessary for Vegeta to not fight by himself. Unless Gohan supressed to base level as a SSJ and SSJ2 then it makes no sense. The Kaioshin is just terrible at sensing and we should leave it at that.

Gohan has nothing to do with Vegeta fighting alone. His power is totally seperate from Vegeta. If he knows the Saiyans decided that fighting alone is more fun, he's expecting Vegeta to fight Pui-Pui without help.

Gohan has everything to do with this. Assuming Gohan's strength the Kaioshin should have said something about letting Gohan fight instead of Vegeta. Because if Gohan was as strong as he should be as a SSJ or SSJ2 then the Kaioshin wouldn't have had anything to worry about. I don't think you understand that the fact that the Kaioshin was worried at all is proof that he is terrible at sensing power because otherwise he would have realised that Gohan by himself would have been enough to whitewash Babidi's minions, excluding Dabra of course.

Honestly it just feels like these characters just have good reputations that scare the Kaioshin. Because the Kaioshin thought Pui-Pui would be too tough for the Saiyan's individually too. Yet Vegeta quickly puts him away.

I don't think Kaioshin knows anything about Pui-Pui, other than him being one of Bobbidi's henchmen. We do know Kaioshin felt as though he needed the Z-Warriors help against Bobbidi, though. This was well before he knew Bobbidi had recruited the likes of Dabra and Yakon.

Doesn't really change my point. In the Kaioshin's eyes any henchmen hired by Babidi must be difficult foes. He says so himself.