Do the Saiyan base forms ever surpass Freeza's strength?

[Dayspring]

Title says it all. Obviously, Gohan does after his Boo saga power boost, but what about Goku and Vegeta?

BPs over 1,000,000 against Freeza, about a year of training, then three years of intensive training for the androids. Intense combat experience (androids), followed by roughly two years in ROSAT. Next, six (or seven?) years of training. Now another seven years of training takes us to the new movie. Think all that time is enough to go from over 1,000,000 to over 120,000,000?

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Battle of Gods basically says no when Beerus says Goku doesn't seem capable of defeating Freeza without transforming, and I'm inclined to agree.

[KentalSSJ6]

Title says it all. Obviously, Gohan does after his Boo saga power boost, but what about Goku and Vegeta?

BPs over 1,000,000 against Freeza, about a year of training, then three years of intensive training for the androids. Intense combat experience (androids), followed by roughly two years in ROSAT. Next, six (or seven?) years of training. Now another seven years of training takes us to the new movie. Think all that time is enough to go from over 1,000,000 to over 120,000,000?

Well Goku can now since he absorbed SSJG into his base but before that, none of the Saiyans ever surpassed 120 million in Base.

I would say Gohan but Mystic seems to be a full on transformation instead of his base since a Daizenshuu entry says Gohan can still go SSJ if he chooses.

[Kaboom]

Aside from Gohan getting his dormant power boost and Goku becoming godly, the official word seems to be "no," according to Beerus' already-mentioned line in Battle of Gods. There's some stuff in the Boo arc which would indirectly imply otherwise, but in light of the rather direct BoG assertion, they can be easily explained in other ways.

They probably got close though. Compared to Freeza's full 120 million, I'd bet at least Goku and Vegeta reached something like 80 or 90 million by the time of Battle of Gods.

[GokuRules987]

Frieza full power level is 120,000,000

Goku Base form (During frieza fight) 3,000,000

Goku would have to become 40 times stronger in his base form in order to reach final form frieza power level

Goku trained at yardrat

Goku trained post android saga

Goku trained in hyperbolic time chamber

Goku trained 7 years in after life

Goku trained pre battle of gods

All these training's should have definetly increased Goku's base form by atleast 40 times after frieza saga but whatever implications the manga may have made 15 years ago are no longer valid sadly.

wonna know what are those impications are?

when goku went from 90,000 to 3,000,000 after healing alone (THATS 30X POWER INCREASE ALREADY)

what about when he landed on yardrat? he would mostly likely gotten another huge power boost from recovery of frieza battle and then when he mastered his super saiyan state in hyperbolic time chamber he should have already surpassed frieza in his base form.

[KentalSSJ6]

Zenkai stop or become so small they aren't even noticeable after Super Saiyan is achieved.

[rereboy]

I don't see why he would have.

Let's imagine that Goku managed to reach 100.000.000 in power level in base alone. Still not enough to defeat Freeza. However, with that power level, his SSJ1 is 5.000.000.000, his SSJ2 is 10.000.000.000 and his SSJ3 is 40.000.000.000.

That's more than enough power to cover up the rest of the manga. In the Cell arc Goku's improvements are regarding his base power and the efficiency of use of his SSj1, and in the Buu arc they amount to the discovery of SSJ2 and SSJ3.

There's simply no need for Goku to be stronger than Freeza in his base, and there's really nothing stating that.

[Hitiro]

I've always been under the impression that Goku was, at most, around 50% Freeza. The reason for this is because the Genki Dama which is drawing on only the Genki portion of Ki from the Earthlings that, at best, number in the 8 billion range would barely be able to kill Pure Boo with the Z-senshi also contributing.

[Regarder]

There's some stuff in the Boo arc which would indirectly imply otherwise, but in light of the rather direct BoG assertion, they can be easily explained in other ways.

I think it's three main things.

Vegeta claiming he would win in base in a tournament where Piccolo was competing - He was just full of bluster as usual?

Piccolo being eliminated by Dabura after he was told to kill the weak ones - The whole thing is just confusing because later they can't measure power properly without a machine, and here it could just be because everyone was suppressed to different levels... even though he mysteriously got it right in terms of full power? I don't know. I just don't know. That whole scene just becomes iffy in light of later things. Dabura is precise enough to measure true power even though they need a meter? The whole scene becomes so much easier if you just imagine that Dabura winged it and guessed right.

Base Goku matching a character his SS form is only 3.75 times stronger than - Goku learned to use his SS without the restlessness, so perhaps he can dial his power down without needing to stay above the transformation energy level? Another explanation is that Goku can use KK without having us see it because he's got so good.

[Dayspring]

There's some stuff in the Boo arc which would indirectly imply otherwise, but in light of the rather direct BoG assertion, they can be easily explained in other ways.

I think it's three main things.

Vegeta claiming he would win in base in a tournament where Piccolo was competing - He was just full of bluster as usual?

Piccolo being eliminated by Dabura after he was told to kill the weak ones - The whole thing is just confusing because later they can't measure power properly without a machine, and here it could just be because everyone was suppressed to different levels... even though he mysteriously got it right in terms of full power? I don't know. I just don't know. That whole scene just becomes iffy in light of later things. Dabura is precise enough to measure true power even though they need a meter? The whole scene becomes so much easier if you just imagine that Dabura winged it and guessed right.

Needing the machine to get a precise reading on the energy level means nothing, though. I can very easily tell the difference between a pond and an ocean, but I haven't the slightest idea as to what the exact amount of water is in either of them. Dabura did the same thing, only swap water for strength levels.

In other words, he looked at Piccolo and a Saiyan, then determined that A < B. He has no idea what A or B is equal to, though. The Saiyans are also in their base forms, so what he would estimate is much, much lower than what the machine told him (since the machine based it on SSJ strength).

Base Goku matching a character his SS form is only 3.75 times stronger than - Goku learned to use his SS without the restlessness, so perhaps he can dial his power down without needing to stay above the transformation energy level? Another explanation is that Goku can use KK without having us see it because he's got so good.

You lost me.

[Kamiccolo9]

Base Goku matching a character his SS form is only 3.75 times stronger than - Goku learned to use his SS without the restlessness, so perhaps he can dial his power down without needing to stay above the transformation energy level? Another explanation is that Goku can use KK without having us see it because he's got so good.

You lost me.

I believe he's talking about Yakon and their respect Kiri measurements.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Well... BoG isn't part of my personal canon... and I do believe base Saiyans > Freeza.

[KentalSSJ6]

Well... BoG isn't part of my personal canon... and I do believe base Saiyans > Freeza.

Your personal "canon" < official continuity.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Your personal "canon" < official continuity.

Okay? Did I say it was fact? No, that's why I said my personal canon.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I can see why people don't use BoG to confirm Freeza>Base Saiyans. Goku was told to hide, so there's no reason why his power wouldn't be suppressed when Beers makes his assessment. It also seems like he was just eager to see Goku transform. Having said that, I personally don't think the Base Saiyans are anything special, but I could see them being close to Freeza. Main reason why is because I don't think Yakon is much weaker than Freeza, and Goku is right around that level.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I just find it very funny that people can completely brush aside Goku saying SSJ Gotenks will be stronger than Fat Buu aside, or Gohan-Buu saying a fusion of Goku and Vegeta is no match for him aside, but Beerus' line 1000% confirms Freeza >>>>> base saiyans no question at all...

[rereboy]

I just find it very funny that people can completely brush aside Goku saying SSJ Gotenks will be stronger than Fat Buu aside, or Gohan-Buu saying a fusion of Goku and Vegeta is no match for him aside, but Beerus' line 1000% confirms Freeza >>>>> base saiyans no question at all...

Well, a lot of people already thought that it was probable that they didn't surpass Freeza in their base state, and there's really no clear/strong implication in the manga that they did, so its easy to accept what Beerus says and the movie say. The examples you've mentioned are more convoluted, I think, not to mention that they are predictions, not just a measurement of a character's power.

[singsing]

I can see why people don't use BoG to confirm Freeza>Base Saiyans. Goku was told to hide, so there's no reason why his power wouldn't be suppressed when Beers makes his assessment. It also seems like he was just eager to see Goku transform. Having said that, I personally don't think the Base Saiyans are anything special, but I could see them being close to Freeza. Main reason why is because I don't think Yakon is much weaker than Freeza, and Goku is right around that level.

If Ginyu can judge with near perfect accuracy a suppressed person's true battle power, I think Beerus would be even more accurate. There was also Goku and Kaio accepting that statement and not bothering to try to correct it. Something like that sounds especially like something Goku would reply "naw dude i can easily kick that guys butt in base!"

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Ginyu only came to the conclusion based on his battle. He originally thought Goku's true power was 60,000 and later changed that once they fought. We've also seen plenty of examples of guys being horribly wrong when it comes to assessing power well after the Ginyu battle, anyway. Beers never saw Base Goku display anything, so he'd have no way of knowing his power. Both Goku and Kaio were trying extra hard to be respectful to Beers at that point, so I don't think they'd need to correct him. The quote just seems like it's entirely visual, if anything. Goku didn't look that tough without Super Saiyan, so Beers assumed he'd be too weak to beat Freeza without it.

[FoolsGil]

With Kaioken sure.