How exactly Gohan could have been better in the Boo arc

[LuckyCat]

Cell Games Gohan is almost like a completely different character. He's so unsure of what he is, what he wants to do and what he has to do, similar to Saiyan arc Gohan.

I'm not sure why people in this thread are saying this. Is it because of the him saying he doesn't want to fight or kill Cell? If so, remember Gohan has studied and matured since Namek, so it wouldn't be too hard to believe that he developed some sort of respect for living things (both as a human and as a scholar). Then there's the fact that the other Androids turned out to be not so bad when given a chance. Gohan was just trying to offer Cell that last chance.

Obviously, Gohan's humanistic ideas didn't work out in Cell saga, so it would be natural for him to be more pragmatic in Buu saga.

[rereboy]

Cell Games Gohan is almost like a completely different character. He's so unsure of what he is, what he wants to do and what he has to do, similar to Saiyan arc Gohan.

I'm not sure why people in this thread are saying this. Is it because of the him saying he doesn't want to fight or kill Cell? If so, remember Gohan has studied and matured since Namek, so it wouldn't be too hard to believe that he developed some sort of respect for living things (both as a human and as a scholar). Then there's the fact that the other Androids turned out to be not so bad when given a chance. Gohan was just trying to offer Cell that last chance.

Obviously, Gohan's humanistic ideas didn't work out in Cell saga, so it would be natural for him to be more pragmatic in Buu saga.

That would be all fine if Gohan got serious after Cell answered his question about standing down. Instead, Gohan only tried to attack twice with two basic attacks and was just watching his friends and family get killed by the Cells Jrs without moving or trying anything. He never acted that way, not even in the saiyan arc. When people were in danger, Gohan ALWAYS answered the call, even if it was a stupid idea. Where was the Gohan that kicked Dodoria in front of Freeza to save Dende?

[LuckyCat]

That's true, but also remember he can't call forth the strength he needs at will. He couldn't always help his friends when he wanted in earlier arcs either, which led to Piccolo's death.

Also, there's at least one line in Cell saga where he says he wants to call out his power and help, but he didn't know how.

[rereboy]

That's true, but also remember he can't call forth the strength he needs at will. He couldn't always help his friends when he wanted in earlier arcs either, which led to Piccolo's death.

Also, there's at least one line in Cell saga where he says he wants to call out his power and help, but he didn't know how.

That never stopped him from trying his all. Dodoria was stronger than Vegeta and Freeza was WAY stronger than Dodoria. Did Gohan care? No. That Gohan was nowhere to be found in the Cell games when people were in danger.

[fadeddreams5]

I admit, the scene would have been way more powerful if Gohan charged in to save his friends, but Cell blocked him every single time, forcing him to eat the dirt on the ground and watch further. 16's death would be the final straw before he lets go and snaps.

Furthermore, there should have been some sort of connection established between Gohan and Cell before that arc to create some build up. And lastly, Gohan's character should have been developed a bit better to reflect his sudden change of heart over certain things. His change makes sense, given that he's grown since his previous journeys. Unfortunately, it's not something explored through writing before it's thrown in our faces.

But it is what it is. I like all forms of Kid Gohan. <3

[Doctor.]

Cell Games Gohan is almost like a completely different character. He's so unsure of what he is, what he wants to do and what he has to do, similar to Saiyan arc Gohan.

I'm not sure why people in this thread are saying this. Is it because of the him saying he doesn't want to fight or kill Cell? If so, remember Gohan has studied and matured since Namek, so it wouldn't be too hard to believe that he developed some sort of respect for living things (both as a human and as a scholar). Then there's the fact that the other Androids turned out to be not so bad when given a chance. Gohan was just trying to offer Cell that last chance.

Obviously, Gohan's humanistic ideas didn't work out in Cell saga, so it would be natural for him to be more pragmatic in Buu saga.

I'm not sure why you're interpreting this as a bad thing. Him being so doubtful is good and in a better series, it would have been developed better. But there's no doubt that it's a trait that his past (Namek) and future iterations do not possess.

[ABED]

so it wouldn't be too hard to believe that he developed some sort of respect for living things

So you leave the development off screen? I also find it odd that you are implying he didn't respect living things before or fighting Cell without trepidation would've shown a lack of respect. In fact, I would argue that seeing Cell for what he is and fighting without hesitation or regret would be the proper or healthy thing.

[LuckyCat]

That never stopped him from trying his all. Dodoria was stronger than Vegeta and Freeza was WAY stronger than Dodoria. Did Gohan care? No. That Gohan was nowhere to be found in the Cell games when people were in danger.

Those were rage boost fights, which is what Gohan was struggling to get during Cell Games. And like fadeddreams5 pointed out, Gohan's normal efforts were locked down by Cell, because Cell was just that damn strong.

But there's no doubt that it's a trait that his past (Namek) and future iterations do not possess.

So you leave the development off screen?

Fair points, I'd have to chock those developments up to Rule of Drama. Trying to get back on topic, do you think Super should bring back Gohan's pacifism again or explore it? Or is Buu Saga Gohan's best persona?

[rereboy]

Those were rage boost fights, which is what Gohan was struggling to get during Cell Games. And like fadeddreams5 pointed out, Gohan's normal efforts were locked down by Cell, because Cell was just that damn strong.

The difference is that Gohan didn't care at all if he had rage boosts or not. He acted and, while he acted, unconsciously, he got rage boosts. And even with his rage boosts, he was no match at all for the enemies he was pissing off. No matter how enraged Gohan got, he didn't stand a chance against Dodoria, for example, let alone Freeza. Did that stop him? No.

So, why does the possibility of Cell being stronger stop Gohan in the Cell games? There's no real reason... Gohan simply, contrary to everything he has ever done, doesn't act because Cell might be stronger and only gets serious once he feels that he is definitely much superior to Cell after turning SSJ2. Everything about Gohan's attitude was way worse in the Cell games than ever before and clearly that change seems to have existed only to add artificial drama to the fight. It's funny because a lot of fans consider Gohan during that period to be the most badass he ever was, but, honestly, it's quite the contrary.

[fadeddreams5]

Oh, I still find Gohan to be the most badass he's ever been there. I'll take the artificial drama. lol.

Spoiler:

That design... *drools*

[rereboy]

Oh, I still find Gohan to be the most badass he's ever been there. I'll take the artificial drama. lol.

Spoiler:

That design... *drools*

Badass Gohan is Gohan breaking Radditz's pod to protect his dad. Badass Gohan is Gohan attacking Nappa, after confronting his fear of him and sending him flying. Badass Gohan is Gohan trying to avenge Piccolo with all he had. Badass Gohan is Gohan refusing to follow Goku's order to go away and convincing Krillin to go join the fight against Vegeta. Badass Gohan is Gohan telling his mom that he wants to go to Namek for the sake of his friends and everybody else, to protect everyone when Vegeta returns, and that he also can fight, wants to fight and should fight. Badass Gohan is Gohan attacking Dodoria in front of Freeza and Zarbon to save some random Namek Kid. Badass Gohan is Gohan keeping his cool in front of Vegeta to keep his Namekian Dragon Ball from him. Badass Gohan is Gohan fighting and giving his all, never giving up, against Reccome. Badass Gohan is Gohan charging at Freeza's third form to save Piccolo, even though he knew how much stronger Freeza was compared to him.

The Gohan you just posted? That's just an overconfident kid who got overconfident because he realized he was much stronger than the enemy and, despite this, still managed to allow the enemy to get the upper hand and doom his father... And when the enemy returns, he still needs his father's hand to give his all in the fight. And the worst? A kid that didn't even try his all before transforming simply because the enemy could be stronger. There's nothing badass about that.

[fadeddreams5]

I found all those examples you listed badass too.

But SSJ2 Gohan was uncompromising, intimidating, mean-tempered, and just awesome. Did you not see what he did to those Cell Jrs?! And that punch to the gut against Cell. He was hands down the most brutal fighter ever in this entire series during those few minutes. And that 180 he pulled. Sure, it was all artificial drama, but boy was it entertaining. It's never bothered me that he had his hands held at the very end, given everything that happened in a span of like... 5 minutes. I'd be in a state of shock too. lol.

[ABED]

Fair points, I'd have to chock those developments up to Rule of Drama.

I don't care for the idea that this is a "trope", it's story. Without conflict, there's no story.

Did you not see what he did to those Cell Jrs?!

Certainly a badass moment, but overall, him as SS2 wasn't all that badass.

I'd be in a state of shock too.

Shock is fine, but that can't overwhelm the hero so much that he chooses inaction and only does anything when someone tells him/her to. That's not badass or heroic.

[fadeddreams5]

Gohan's feeling of hopelessness is understandable, but I do agree that Gohan should have pushed through instead of giving up; I didn't like him about to let Cell blow up the world and kill everyone just like that. Even a half-assed beam would have sufficed. But meh, the beam struggle that followed is probably my favorite moment in all of DBZ. =P

[Doctor.]

He was hands down the most brutal fighter ever in this entire series during those few minutes.

Kind of an overstatement here...

I'm sure you're not remembering Namek arc Vegeta correctly.

[rereboy]

I found all those examples you listed badass too.

But SSJ2 Gohan was uncompromising, intimidating, mean-tempered, and just awesome. Did you not see what he did to those Cell Jrs?! And that punch to the gut against Cell. He was hands down the most brutal fighter ever in this entire series during those few minutes. And that 180 he pulled. Sure, it was all artificial drama, but boy was it entertaining. It's never bothered me that he had his hands held at the very end, given everything that happened in a span of like... 5 minutes. I'd be in a state of shock too. lol.

The cell jrs were very weak compared to him and Cell wasn't much better. His relative poder compared to them was badass, just like mine is badass compared to a rat, but that's about it.

[fadeddreams5]

He was hands down the most brutal fighter ever in this entire series during those few minutes.

Kind of an overstatement here...

I'm sure you're not remembering Namek arc Vegeta correctly.

Oh, well... yeah.

What I mean is, SSJ2 Gohan's physical blows looked really painful. Really, really painful. First time, I believe a character was left in the state Cell was in. It was sick. And then he wanted to continue torturing him...

I found all those examples you listed badass too.

But SSJ2 Gohan was uncompromising, intimidating, mean-tempered, and just awesome. Did you not see what he did to those Cell Jrs?! And that punch to the gut against Cell. He was hands down the most brutal fighter ever in this entire series during those few minutes. And that 180 he pulled. Sure, it was all artificial drama, but boy was it entertaining. It's never bothered me that he had his hands held at the very end, given everything that happened in a span of like... 5 minutes. I'd be in a state of shock too. lol.

The cell jrs were very weak compared to him and Cell wasn't much better. His relative poder compared to them was badass, just like mine is badass compared to a rat, but that's about it.

That in itself is badass. Those Cell Jrs. were whupping everyone, including Vegeta and Trunks. Then comes this kid and one-shots them... quite literally. One punch and kick blows them all up. That was insane.

[Doctor.]

What I'd class as badass in the series proper would be something like Majin Vegeta standing up to Fat Boo, Goku using the 20x Kaioken Kamehameha against Freeza or Vegeta putting up a decent fight against Recoome. Basically any time the underdog gets a good shot in or proves he's more than canon fodder.

Someone pummeling a weak being isn't badass. Just like that moment at the end of F with Vegeta isn't badass despite his fans thinking so for some reason, neither is Gohan destroying the Cell Jrs, to me. I feel like they're both entirely comparable situations where the manga/movie makes the scene out to be something bigger than it is.

First time, I believe a character was left in the state Cell was in. It was sick. And then he wanted to continue torturing him...

Aaaaaaand Freeza with Vegeta.

[Avery]

Gohan in the boo arc...


Urgh...
But seriously, Toriyama made him so weak just to make Goku shine once more then comes up with that mystic ass-pull to make him relevant again then...er...makes him irrelevant again. -__-
The Boo arc was really weird.

[fadeddreams5]

What I'd class as badass in the series proper would be something like Majin Vegeta standing up to Fat Boo, Goku using the 20x Kaioken Kamehameha against Freeza or Vegeta putting up a decent fight against Recoome. Basically any time the underdog gets a good shot in or proves he's more than canon fodder.

Someone pummeling a weak being isn't badass. Just like that moment at the end of F with Vegeta isn't badass despite his fans thinking so for some reason, neither is Gohan destroying the Cell Jrs, to me. I feel like they're both entirely comparable situations where the manga/movie makes the scene out to be something bigger than it is.

I find those scenes badass too, but I also find Vegeta whupping Frieza in F cool too. Gohan wasn't pummeling someone weak... by a long shot. I always find one-sided battles awesome when the person getting his ass handed to him had never experienced a challenge before, let alone lost to anyone, or the audience simply does not expect the character to lose in such a matter (I'm a huge fan of all the "Goku has finally arrived!" moments). It's shocking and creates impact.

Aaaaaaand Freeza with Vegeta.

One punch to the gut and he made Cell throw up. One punch and he blows up the Cell Jrs. Seeing that made SSJ2 Gohan seem downright scary, especially given who he did all this to. That's what I meant by brutal. Maybe "frighteningly strong" would be a better phrase.

But by definition, you're right though. Those scenes with Frieza...