Iconic scenes ruined by the dub?

[fadeddreams5]

Most of the Faulconer tracks have an apocalyptic tone, and I find that depressing. Maybe not every single one, but most of them do. That's just my personal opinion, though. I'm sure that if I grew up on the Faulconer score I would love it too. It just doesn't feel like Dragon Ball to me.

For the record, I was exposed to the Kikuchi and Ocean dub OST before Faulconer. =P

[DoomieDoomie911]

Most of the Faulconer tracks have an apocalyptic tone, and I find that depressing. Maybe not every single one, but most of them do. That's just my personal opinion, though. I'm sure that if I grew up on the Faulconer score I would love it too. It just doesn't feel like Dragon Ball to me.

For the record, I was exposed to the Kikuchi and Ocean dub OST before Faulconer. =P

Well, a lot of people point to nostalgia as one of the reasons they like the score.

[ABED]

They aren't the same, they just sound the same, they're interchangeable

We'll have to disagree on that point. They don't sound the same. It doesn't all bleed together. Faulconer might have more cues, but I can't remember the vast majority of them off the top of my head. They aren't distinct, and don't help the scenes stand out.

That kind of music is very 90's and being a heavy action oriented show it's a better fit. It's also just better music in general anyway because they aren't dreary and depressing. The SSJ3 theme, Ginyu Force theme, Super Saiyan Vegeta theme are far better tracks than anything Kikuchi came out with.

I grew up in the 90s, and music didn't sound like that. Music can be dreary and depressing and still be great, and it's not even true that it's somehow drearier than Faulconer's score. He rarely scored the more fun elements of the show. By making the music of the decade it was produced, it's dating the music. Kikuchi's music fits the aesthetic of the show, which isn't just fighting and ACTION.

[fadeddreams5]

Faulconer may have been "dating" his soundtrack by having it correspond with the era the show was released, but Kikuchi's already felt dated by the time DBZ aired. lol. In 1992, while the Cell saga aired, Yu Yu Hakusho was released. Now there's a show that knows how to place hype music when needed while also staying true to the emotional scenes. Sailor Moon also had an amazing soundtrack, and was released then too. >_>;

DBZ may not be all action and fighting, but that's why people watch it. It's THE most over-the-top series of its kind in the world. It requires intensity and hype in its tunes. Kikuchi's track lacks that, and makes some of the most exciting moments a drag. The times it doesn't, it just so happens he didn't make the themes (e.g. Bardock's theme, Gohan's SSJ2 transformation theme, Battle Point Unlimited). Faulconer, meanwhile, has a plethora of other flaws, but delivers during the moments most important to me as a viewer. DB has never had an optimal OST, imo.

[VegettoEX]

I never once feel this "drag" that you people keep mentioning in Kikuchi's score. I don't get it. I just don't get it.

It's curious to me that you praise the Sailormoon score, especially because I hear so many parallels in terms of composition and tone between it and Kikuchi's overall DB/DBZ score. Each show has similar ups-and-downs of thematic and visual content, and each score hits all of those points with a wide range of tunes.

[Akumaito Beam]

Calling the original score "monotonous" is humorous to me because that's the first word I think of when I hear the dub OST. It's this wall to wall gnashing cheap sounding synth that all blends together. There are some nice compositions but for the most part it's all very samey in tone. I also feel like there's a lot of filler in the music, tracks that drone on in the background because there's nothing really to put music to yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m17qjNtTqAk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VONlxrs0qk

Mix that with the endless Mickey Mousing constantly interrupting the few decent pieces of music and it really isn't my bag.

[fadeddreams5]

Well, in the end of the day, it's just a matter of opinion. In the Sailor Moon OST, I happen to like a lot of themes. A lot are close to Kikuchi's "Believe in Tomorrow," which I really like. The show is much more emotional and less over-the-top than DBZ, so there's that too. The moments there's action, some kickass themes play (see: uranus theme, battle theme #6, verwandlung #1, ai no senshi, la soldier, etc.). Perhaps several have similar compositions to Kikuchi, but they just sound that much better to me. Idk.

As for the "drag" thing...

The most popular example is probably the one Bullza mentioned. All of this made the scene for me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7zKh0ffGiI

It. Was. Awesome.

After seeing that, I can't watch the Japanese version and attain anywhere near the level of excitement. So maybe, there, it's not a general Kikuchi issue, but the inevitable comparison I make in my mind. Same thing when I watch something like Vegeta's SSJ transformation in the dub before watching the sub. The one time I can watch a hype moment in the dub version first, but think it's equally or more hype in the Japanese version is Trunks' SSJ transformation. Unfortunately, Yamamoto was the one who provided the track for that scene. Bardock's battle theme in the Japanese version is also more exciting than the dub... but again, not Kikuchi's track.

So basically, Kikuchi's themes are a "drag" during the moments I want the intensity to increase (mostly in battles, beam struggles, and transformations).

[ABED]

It's not dated, it fits the feeling of the show. Sure, people watch DBZ for the action, but it's more than that. There's a humor, tone, and feel of the show that painting it purely as an action show misses the point.

YYH... there's a show that knows how to place hype music when needed while also staying true to the emotional scenes.

It also knew when to use silence and the tone of the show it was acompanying.

Yes, there are a few bits of score from the dub that are good, but I don't know how the overwhelming majority of the dub's negatives doesn't swamp whatever thing they did that were as good or better than the original or Kai.

You might see the SS3 theme as hyping, but i think it misses the point and gilds the lily at best.

[Doctor.]

I don't think the SS3 theme misses the point. The (Goku) SS theme misses the point. The SS3 transformation was to show this incredible level of power nobody has seen before, the animation just screams that, the dialogue between the characters prior to the transformation screams that. Faulconer's SS3 theme just emits 'power'. The japanese score was also well placed, but I feel that Faulconer's score was one of the only scenes (probably the only one) the dub managed to improve over the japanese, imo.

[Caulifor]

Well, first of all I want to say that I grew up with the Brazilian dub and after that I only watched the original Japanese version, so I don't have much knowledge about the American dub (especially since there seems to be several of them? This has always been really confusing to me, but anyway...). I'm not trying to convince anyone that I'm right or anything, I'm just bringing an "outsider" viewpoint.

What I know about the American dub came from the video games, so at least I'm familiar with a few voices and terms. And though I do find a lot of voices fitting, there are a few things I really dislike about them. The biggest of all is Goku's voice, which has nothing to do with his character. It reminds me of Superman, actually, and not in a good way. I have this impression that the American dub tried to change Goku's personality to make him more similar to what Americans are used to when it comes to main heroes, but I could be wrong.

Another thing I dislike is the changing of several names, especially attack names. "Special Beam Cannon" is one of the worst examples. I understand why it was done, and I'm not sure using the original names is a better option, but I do believe it could've been done better. Now, when it comes to character names, I believe most of them should've remained the same. When I first played a DBZ game I thought it was really weird how Kaio was called "King Kai", or Mr. Satan was "Hercule" (okay, this one I know why was changed).

As for the Faulconer score... I really don't see how someone could prefer it over the original, if not because of pure nostalgia. Everytime I listen to one of the tracks or watch a scene from the American dub with the Faulconer score, I find it so... not-Dragon Ball. I get that it tries to be more epic and hype up scenes, but honestly to me it makes everything feel more like a generic action cartoon. And we all know that is just not what Dragon Ball is. It has action, yes, but it also has humour, fantasy, mystery, adventure, silliness, and much more.

I'm not saying Kikuchi score is better than Faulconer. Though I certainly believe it is, I think music taste is something very personal and it's impossible for everyone to agree on which one is the best. However, I do think Kikuchi's score fits the show perfectly, while Faulconer feels like it is trying to turn Dragon Ball into something else, something it is not, something that would appeal more to the 'average American young boy', whatever that was back in the 90s.

[fadeddreams5]

You might see the SS3 theme as hyping, but i think it misses the point and gilds the lily at best.

I think the SSJ3 theme is fitting in all three versions (Original, Funi, and Kai). In the original, the music emphasizes on the mystery and intimidation of what is coming ahead, as nobody knows what the heck a SSJ3 even is. The Funi version emphasizes on the ascension itself, as our hero is attaining a new power, which he himself states before doing so. The Kai version focuses on the chaos occurring around the world as Goku transforms. It all works, imo.

The (Goku) SS theme misses the point.

I find that to be fitting too. In fact, it made the scene more for me than the SSJ3 theme did. I couldn't stop replaying that scene when I was a kid. Mostly cause of that theme. lol.

What I know about the American dub came from the video games, so at least I'm familiar with a few voices and terms. And though I do find a lot of voices fitting, there are a few things I really dislike about them. The biggest of all is Goku's voice, which has nothing to do with his character. It reminds me of Superman, actually, and not in a good way. I have this impression that the American dub tried to change Goku's personality to make him more similar to what Americans are used to when it comes to main heroes, but I could be wrong.

Was Goku's voice high-pitched like the Japanese one in the Brazilian dub? I've never watched that version.

[Doctor.]

You can think it made it more epic and 'badass', sure, you can replay it hundreds of times over, but that's why it misses the point and why it doesn't make the score any less fitting. The scene is supposed to be a departure from the Goku we once knew, who's turning into a monster due to the rage that he's experiencing at that moment. The Kikuchi score gives us that feeling, it's an ominous track, not a 'badass' one. It's supposed to make us think "holy shit, this isn't Goku...!", not "holy shit, this is awesome!!".

[fadeddreams5]

You can think it made it more epic and 'badass', sure, you can replay it hundreds of times over, but that's why it misses the point and why it doesn't make the score any less fitting. The scene is supposed to be a departure from the Goku we once knew, who's turning into a monster due to the rage that he's experiencing at that moment. The Kikuchi score gives us that feeling, it's an ominous track, not a 'badass' one. It's supposed to make us think "holy shit, this isn't Goku...!", not "holy shit, this is awesome!!".

But the SSJ theme doesn't just convey hype to me. It has this majestic air of mystery. I hear something more akin to "holy shit, the SSJ legend is coming to fruition!" I find that fitting. Kikuchi's also is. Kikuchi's music is almost always fitting, in fact. I just find it boring a lot of times too. The scene seems a bit underwhelming to me, despite conveying what you mentioned.

[Dbzfan94]

You can think it made it more epic and 'badass', sure, you can replay it hundreds of times over, but that's why it misses the point and why it doesn't make the score any less fitting. The scene is supposed to be a departure from the Goku we once knew, who's turning into a monster due to the rage that he's experiencing at that moment. The Kikuchi score gives us that feeling, it's an ominous track, not a 'badass' one. It's supposed to make us think "holy shit, this isn't Goku...!", not "holy shit, this is awesome!!".

But the SSJ theme doesn't just convey hype to me. It has this majestic air of mystery. I hear something more akin to "holy shit, the SSJ legend is coming to fruition!" I find that fitting. Kikuchi's also is. Kikuchi's music is almost always fitting, in fact. I just find it boring a lot of times too. The scene seems a bit underwhelming to me, despite conveying what you mentioned.

I gotta agree with you, fadeddreams5. The Faulconer score may not always fit perfectly, but when it does it nails it. But Kikuchi does too. There's not one definitive way for a DB soundtrack to sound. Two different tracks for Goku turning SSJ1 (Faulconer and Kikuchi in this case) can both fit in different ways.

[Ajay]

Much like Sumitomo's work (or the placement it was given) in Kai 2.0, Faulconer's soundtrack occasionally works on a sentimental level, rather than the intended tone of the scene. In the case of the Super Saiyan transformation, Kikuchi's music invokes a sense of horror, fear, and aggression. At this point in the story, we don't really know much about the Super Saiyan, other than that it's a very powerful warrior. We've got Goku telling Gohan to run away, there's lightning flashing through the skies, rubble exploding them, and waves crashing against the shore. It's an incredibly dark and scary scene, and Kikuchi's music nails that. Faulconer looks at this scene from the point of view of the fandom; Goku is finally achieving the super awesome, cool-looking form that will come to define the image of the series. It's got punchy guitars, pounding drums, and just about everything you want to give the scene an 'epic' feeling. But that's inappropriate, unfitting, and shouldn't be used in anything but AMVs.

Tonally, his music is always going to be off for me, but his work on the Super Saiyan 3 scene is reasonably appropriate for the scene. There's nothing emotional going on there, there's no real surprise other than the visuals, it's just Goku working his way through his forms and bigging up his new transformation. That's the kind of scene you can get away with when you want fans to go "Whoah, that was epic, bruh!". Yes, there are some dramatic undertones about delaying Boo, but it's pretty much pure spectacle. I have no issues with that scene in both Kai 2.0 and the dub.

Outside of that, most of the iconic scenes from the series were absolutely butchered by the dub. I didn't want to be that guy, so tried my best to stay away from this thread, but hopefully the first part makes up for it... at least a little.

[Caulifor]

What I know about the American dub came from the video games, so at least I'm familiar with a few voices and terms. And though I do find a lot of voices fitting, there are a few things I really dislike about them. The biggest of all is Goku's voice, which has nothing to do with his character. It reminds me of Superman, actually, and not in a good way. I have this impression that the American dub tried to change Goku's personality to make him more similar to what Americans are used to when it comes to main heroes, but I could be wrong.

Was Goku's voice high-pitched like the Japanese one in the Brazilian dub? I've never watched that version.

Not at all, actually. Here's a scene with him (at 1:50 if the link doesn't work properly):
https://youtu.be/CiGV6S-oWQ0?t=110

I think Wendel Bezerra (Brazilian voice of Goku) does manage to act very similar to the relaxed and silly Goku we all know and love, while at the same time becoming serious when the story needed it. Of course, I'm not saying he is perfect at all - I like it because of nostalgia, and maybe if I heard him nowadays for the first time I would only find it a decent dub, but nothing exceptional. (Funny tidbit: in this dub, kid Goku was actually voiced by Wendel Bezerra's sister, Ursula Bezerra. It's kind of nice, because the voice she uses does seem like a "child" version of Wendel's a bit. The very first scene in the video I posted has a scene with her as kid Goku).

But I don't think Goku's voice has to be high-pitched. I'm talking more about the "acting" part of the "voice acting" here. American dub Goku (the one in most video games and, I assume, most media nowadays) is too... heroic, or something, all the time. As I said, he sounds a lot like Superman to me.

[fadeddreams5]

Much like Sumitomo's work (or the placement it was given) in Kai 2.0, Faulconer's soundtrack occasionally works on a sentimental level, rather than the intended tone of the scene. . .Faulconer looks at this scene from the point of view of the fandom; Goku is finally achieving the super awesome, cool-looking form that will come to define the image of the series. It's got punchy guitars, pounding drums, and just about everything you want to give the scene an 'epic' feeling. But that's inappropriate, unfitting, and shouldn't be used in anything but AMVs.

I feel the first part of the theme that plays while Goku is transforming fits the scene really well. It's the part that plays after he's already transformed that feels a bit out of place and purely hyping up the transformation.

Optimally, that scene would be perfect if there was no music until after Goku transforms. Hearing his grunts and the sound effects of the lightning, wind, and ground alone gives it the perfect tone. You can hear this in the beginning of original Japanese and English Kai versions. The former ruins it with a pretty dull '60s-esque theme. And the latter ruins it with a generic theme that plays in many other scenes. The Funi SSJ track may not be completely fitting, but at least it's exciting and saved exclusively for that moment. =P

But I don't think Goku's voice has to be high-pitched. I'm talking more about the "acting" part of the "voice acting" here. American dub Goku (the one in most video games and, I assume, most media nowadays) is too... heroic, or something, all the time. As I said, he sounds a lot like Superman to me.

Yeah, I hear the Superman complaint a lot. I'm so used to this Goku, though, that I couldn't un-hear it in my mind. Can't imagine another one for the English dub.

Brazilian Goku doesn't sound bad at all, honestly. But I don't know the language, so I guess I'm not the best judge.

[Caulifor]

Yeah, I hear the Superman complaint a lot. I'm so used to this Goku, though, that I couldn't un-hear it in my mind. Can't imagine another one for the English dub.

I guess he's not exactly bad, he's just different. American Goku seems more like a traditional Western hero that sometimes does jokes (which in my opinion sound kinda forced with his acting, but maybe it works for someone who's used to him), as opposed to the more silly character from the original Japanese.

Brazilian Goku doesn't sound bad at all, honestly. But I don't know the language, so I guess I'm not the best judge.

Oh, people around here love him. I think it would be really hard for any Western dub to have a high-pitched voice Goku, because that's just not something we're used to. Unless there is one that I just don't know about

[Kakacarrottop]

American dub Goku (the one in most video games and, I assume, most media nowadays) is too... heroic, or something, all the time. As I said, he sounds a lot like Superman to me.

"American Goku" sounds nothing like Superman/He-Man/Captain America or any typical deep voiced manly hero. Sean Schemmel (and to an extent Ian Corlett) just sound like regular 20 something guys with a nasally voice. The bad script is the main reason American Goku comes off as heroic. People always claim the English dubs made him sound like Superman, when in reality, other dubs (such as the Spanish version) have Gokus with much deeper, more masculine voices.

Tien in the Ocean dub and Turles in the FUNimation dub are what i would classify as "Superman" voices in the English version.

I think it would be really hard for any Western dub to have a high-pitched voice Goku, because that's just not something we're used to. Unless there is one that I just don't know about

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuViG2-w_To
Peter Kelamis says hi

[Caulifor]

American dub Goku (the one in most video games and, I assume, most media nowadays) is too... heroic, or something, all the time. As I said, he sounds a lot like Superman to me.

The bad script is the main reason American Goku comes off as heroic. People always claim the English dubs made him sound like Superman, when in reality, other dubs (such as the Spanish version) have Gokus with much deeper, more masculine voices.

I would say not only the script, but his delivery too (which is probably dictated somewhat by the script, but still).

I think it would be really hard for any Western dub to have a high-pitched voice Goku, because that's just not something we're used to. Unless there is one that I just don't know about

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuViG2-w_To
Peter Kelamis says hi

Well, I was talking about Masako Nozawa level of high-pitch Even though this one is higher than others, it's still a "normal" voice.

Nevertheless, to me this Peter Kelamis does a much more interesting Goku. Sadly, he is probably unknown to most non-American fans (I have never head him before). Sean Schemmel is the one in most video games (or the most recent, at least), and he certainly reminds me A LOT of Superman. I'm not saying it's exactly the same voice, but it has something that brings the same kind of feel. As you said, the script has a lot to do with this, but I think both his voice and his delivery also have an impact.

And once again I must say that Goku sounding more heroic doesn't mean it's bad, but it's different from what one would expect after having known the original Goku from the Japanese version.