How strong is the Fusion Dance?

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Re: How strong is the Fusion Dance?

Post by Speedster » Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:58 pm

Darkprince410 wrote:He explicitly states that he never transformed at all when he attacked planet Vegeta though.
Freeza: “Oh, is that right? Look vee—eery closely then. This isn’t something you get to see very often. Even when I attacked Planet Vegeta, where the Saiyans lived, and fought with the king, I was able to win without any need to transform whatsoever…Vegeta…your father wasn’t anything special.”
So the entire time he attacked the planet, even when taking on Vegeta's father, he didn't transform.
This is not explicit really. It doesn’t say explicitly that he blew up the planet in his first form. All he said was that he attacked planet Vegeta and killed the king which given the context could more logically be interpreted that he was talking about attacking and killing the people of planet Vegeta. Like Goku Black attacking the Earth - the humans on Earth. Not literally throwing an attack on the planet itself to destroy it. It is entirely possible that after Freeza killed king Vegeta and several Saiyans with his first form he transformed to his final form (while nobody was around to see him) and blew up the planet.
Darkprince410 wrote: No, because with that Gohan example you gave, there's at least evidence shown later to discredit it.
And using your logic in this case there are things shown later that discredit Freeza being able to blow up planet Vegeta in his first form. At least not instantaneously like Roshi/Piccolo did with the moon. We saw 50% Final form Freeza thowing a big blast to destroy planet Namek but the destruction would happen after 5mins. And though it is implied that he held back, it is also implied that destroying Namek instantaneously would be pretty much his top feat. And later King Cold remarked that as Earth is such a small planet they can destroy it in one shot. And when he said so Freeza was in his Mecha form which was stated to be stronger than his final form. Also apparently for other bigger planets than Earth they would need to do more than just firing a single shot. Planet Vegeta has 10x bigger gravity than Earth and as a result it needs 10-100x times more energy to be destroyed than Earth.

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Re: How strong is the Fusion Dance?

Post by dragon boss z » Thu Dec 08, 2016 12:18 am

Darkprince410 wrote: Or it can simply be that Super explained what we were meant to always assume happened in Revival of F. It's similar to Vegeta obtaining Ssj Blue, that Super explained in greater detail what was left generally unexplained in the movie. It's so much simpler to believe that they trained along with Freeza to reach a level where they could match/surpass Piccolo than it is to assume that Toriyama, who had read his manga during the course of writing Revival of F to refresh himself, left Shisami/Tagoma that weak and had Piccolo that weak as a result.
If they wanted to explain about Shismai getting stronger with Frieza they easily could have. Frieza wasn't even surprised when Shismai got one shotted. Not only did it explain that Tagoma trained with Frieza, it also mentioned multiple times how he got stronger. He then stomped the z fighters. All Shisami did was hold Piccolo for 10 seconds and then get one shotted by Gohan.

Also Frieza soldiers who could get eaten by a giant fish pushing some of the Z fighters makes just as little sense.
They never "fought" the Cell Jrs though. Given what's shown in the manga, they weren't able to put up any kind of fight against them and were thrown around and beat up effortlessly. The only reason that they weren't outright killed was because Cell had wanted them to prolong the Z Senshi's torture to further anger Gohan. Likewise, the Shin Ki Kou Hou is a massively powerful technique, stated to make the Kamehameha look like nothing in comparison, so it makes some sense that, using the technique at the cost of massive amounts of his ki, he could temporarily hold Cell back.

No, because with that Gohan example you gave, there's at least evidence shown later to discredit it. There is, however, nothing within Toriyama's original work that discredits the boys being of comparable strength to Gohan and their fathers. We have the Daizenshuu entry for Goten, we have Gohan's statement about the boys in relation to him, we have Vegeta's difficulty in defending and evading Trunks' attacks, we have #18 panicking over a suppressed ki blast fired by Trunks, we have Piccolo's comment about the boys being their only hope in a very short period of time, etc.

Gohan showed us that being exceptionally powerful wasn't restricted to age, as when he was only 10/11 years old, he surpassed everyone else and became the strongest fighter within the story. Why then is it that unreasonable that Goten and Trunks, born as tailless hybrids and thus established prodigies (as stated within the Daizenshuu) can reach amazing levels of power at a younger age than Gohan? That's the point that is generally pushed within the manga. Not that they're simply amazingly strong for their age (and not actually strong when compared to any of the heavy hitters), but that they're amazingly strong period even when compared to the strongest fighters around, and it's even more shocking when their age is taken into account.
Gohan trained for years and didn't even surpass Frieza until a year of intense training in the room of spirit and time. Goten and Trunks are a couple years younger than Gohan was then without the long intense training. And like I showed ssj Gohan was cared of a rock base Goten threw. So being afraid of their attack doesn't make you weaker.

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Re: How strong is the Fusion Dance?

Post by Darkprince410 » Thu Dec 08, 2016 2:28 pm

This is not explicit really. It doesn’t say explicitly that he blew up the planet in his first form. All he said was that he attacked planet Vegeta and killed the king which given the context could more logically be interpreted that he was talking about attacking and killing the people of planet Vegeta. Like Goku Black attacking the Earth - the humans on Earth. Not literally throwing an attack on the planet itself to destroy it. It is entirely possible that after Freeza killed king Vegeta and several Saiyans with his first form he transformed to his final form (while nobody was around to see him) and blew up the planet.
I take it as being more simple than that, that the entirety of his time attacking the planet, which included his destroying the planet, was all done in his base form. You say that the panel of the manga showing him killing Bardock with the blast doesn't count, but given that Toriyama based those panels on the anime special, and that Bardock died in the special with the same attack that destroyed planet Vegeta, there's no logical reason to assume that Toriyama aimed for something different in his depiction of the events for that particular scene.
And using your logic in this case there are things shown later that discredit Freeza being able to blow up planet Vegeta in his first form. At least not instantaneously like Roshi/Piccolo did with the moon. We saw 50% Final form Freeza thowing a big blast to destroy planet Namek but the destruction would happen after 5mins. And though it is implied that he held back, it is also implied that destroying Namek instantaneously would be pretty much his top feat. And later King Cold remarked that as Earth is such a small planet they can destroy it in one shot. And when he said so Freeza was in his Mecha form which was stated to be stronger than his final form. Also apparently for other bigger planets than Earth they would need to do more than just firing a single shot. Planet Vegeta has 10x bigger gravity than Earth and as a result it needs 10-100x times more energy to be destroyed than Earth.
If we want to get into mass and density to determine planetary destruction, then even then it'd only take someone in the hundreds of thousands to destroy planet Vegeta. The moon has a mass of 1.2% that of Earth, and Roshi destroyed it with a battle power of 137 (perhaps greater, but this is a baseline battle power we know for him). Earth then would require a battle power of ~11,000 to destroy it, fitting with Vegeta being able to destroy it with a battle power of 18,000. 10x that of the power needed to destroy the Earth and you get ~110,000, which means that Freeza, in his first form, could casually destroy it with his battle power of 530,000.

Density wise it gets even smaller. The moon's density is 60% that of Earth's, so if it takes 137 to destroy the moon easily, then it'd only take ~228 to destroy the Earth, and thus only 2,228 to destroy planet Vegeta.

Additionally, I fail to see how it's implied that destroying Namek instantly would have been his best feat. All that's indicated is that he held back a good deal of his remaining power (he was already weakened from the Genki Dama and his damage from Ssj Goku) and still had enough power there to damage the planet to the point of it blowing up in 5 minutes. Nothing about him destroying it instantly being the best he could do.
If they wanted to explain about Shismai getting stronger with Frieza they easily could have. Frieza wasn't even surprised when Shismai got one shotted. Not only did it explain that Tagoma trained with Frieza, it also mentioned multiple times how he got stronger. He then stomped the z fighters. All Shisami did was hold Piccolo for 10 seconds and then get one shotted by Gohan.
Again, you're overanalyzing things. Which is the simpler to accept, that Shisami trained during the same length of time that Freeza did and grew strong enough to give Piccolo a hard time? Or that Toriyama somehow believed that Piccolo was so low strength wise that an individual around the 20,000 range could give Piccolo trouble and that Gohan would need Ssj to beat? Even without knowing the whole Tagoma/Shisami situation behind the scenes, it's far easier to just extrapolate that as the likely scenario, that Shisami trained.

As for the whole Z Senshi thing, as said, the Z Senshi were clearly suppressing themselves to buy time for Goku and Vegeta to show. Any "difficulty" they had is attributed to them holding back, not legitimate weakness.
Gohan trained for years and didn't even surpass Frieza until a year of intense training in the room of spirit and time. Goten and Trunks are a couple years younger than Gohan was then without the long intense training. And like I showed ssj Gohan was cared of a rock base Goten threw. So being afraid of their attack doesn't make you weaker.
He was easily well above where you are putting the boys base battle power wise before he entered the Room of Spirit and Time. The only reason he didn't surpass Freeza at the time is because he hadn't transformed.

And, as said, the manga and Daizenshuu readily point to Goten and Trunks being prodigies even in comparison to Gohan, so what might have been difficult for him came easier to them, including the quickness that they grew strengthwise.

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Re: How strong is the Fusion Dance?

Post by dragon boss z » Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:07 am

Darkprince410 wrote:
Again, you're overanalyzing things. Which is the simpler to accept, that Shisami trained during the same length of time that Freeza did and grew strong enough to give Piccolo a hard time? Or that Toriyama somehow believed that Piccolo was so low strength wise that an individual around the 20,000 range could give Piccolo trouble and that Gohan would need Ssj to beat? Even without knowing the whole Tagoma/Shisami situation behind the scenes, it's far easier to just extrapolate that as the likely scenario, that Shisami trained.
Toriyama's script is very minimal. Here are Toriyama's words

"It’s really embarrassing to have this called a “screenplay”. It’d probably be more accurate to say it’s just a memo. It’s simply something I idly dashed off for the staff, just to help explain the flow of the story and the dialogue!"

Also it's worth mentioning the RoF manga left out Shisami giving Piccolo trouble which may mean Toyotaro felt like it didn't make sense.

Also ya I don't have a problem with saying Shisami trained and got stronger but it's almost certain he wasn't meant to be stronger than final form Frieza.

and would you really be surprised with them having Piccolo have trouble with a guy who has a power level of 20,000 when they have Frieza say he will get a power level of 1.3 million? They clearly don't know what they are doing with power scaling. Just watch dragon ball super, lol. Super has the worst power scaling I have ever seen.

And power levels are basically thrown out at this point. Shisami is just a guy who "gives Piccolo some trouble before being one shotted by a rusty ssj Gohan."

Also Gohan even implies Namek Goku may be stronger than he is now or at least close in strength. Gohan says, "this is serious Bulma, I don't think you understand what kind of opponent Frieza is. It took my dad everything he had to win their battle last time and Frieza has powered up to a totally different level."
As for the whole Z Senshi thing, as said, the Z Senshi were clearly suppressing themselves to buy time for Goku and Vegeta to show. Any "difficulty" they had is attributed to them holding back, not legitimate weakness.
That was actually one of my theories. Piccolo wanted his battle to last a while because after beating Shisami Frieza would be next. This could also be why he said "I had him Gohan" but he can't outright say "I'm stalling" or Frieza would get mad.

He was easily well above where you are putting the boys base battle power wise before he entered the Room of Spirit and Time. The only reason he didn't surpass Freeza at the time is because he hadn't transformed.
Do you have any evidence Gohan's base power level was above 3 million before going into the ROSAT. I would argue their is absolutely no evidence of that, and that he wasn't even close to that level. Before going into the ROSAT Gohan (without anger boost) is featless.
And, as said, the manga and Daizenshuu readily point to Goten and Trunks being prodigies even in comparison to Gohan, so what might have been difficult for him came easier to them, including the quickness that they grew strengthwise.
I agree their prodigies. However you have to realize Raditz was about your average saiyan warrior, maybe a bit above, and his power level was only about 1,500. He was a battle hardened saiyan that probably killed millions and had hundreds of fights. Yet base Goten and Trunks with barely any training have power levels of at least 100,000 lol.
Even Gohan had to have intense training with Piccolo to even reach a power level of over 1,000 and his power level din't even surpass 10,000 until Guru unlocked his power level.

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