Should Goku stop being irresponsible jerk?

[TheMikado]

This whole "Vegeta would have fallen deeper into the emotional abyss if Goku used SSJ3 against him" angle is quite frankly absurd. Vegeta was angry at Goku for not going all out in their battle. That was biggest insult to Vegeta. Not that idea he would have been easily defeat by SSJ3 Goku. I don know why people keep ignoring what's stated in the manga for for sake of perpetuating this whole theory that Vegeta would have been emotionally broken over Goku using when it is directly contracted by what's stated in the original story.

Vegeta was clearly been desperate for more power to close gap in strength between him and Goku, but as we later found out, what was Vegeta was far upset over more was Goku not using SSJ3. Vegeta made it very clear that he prioritises losing with dignity in the fact of his opponent fighting with all they have rather than trying the close the gap in power. He was lead to believe to he was facing Goku at his full power but he wasn't. That is what angered Vegeta the most. He was more than willing to essentially make a deal with the devil to catch up with Goku but the fact that Goku did not essentially fight with everything he had, made Vegeta feel as though Goku was mocking him and made his deal with the devil meaningless. Vegeta may have some fucked up priorities, but that's how he view them.

Vegeta may be/may have been somewhat immature in his manor of reacting to those who are stronger to him, but he's not some emotional basket where people need to walk on eggshells to ensure he doesn't the handle with the slightest direct on indirect provocation. If Goku defeats Vegeta, kills Majin Boo and returns the afterlife, nothing would really happen after that. Vegeta take pride in that he lost to Goku at his absolute best, the wish back all the people killed by Vegeta, he's easily forgiven again for his actions, and then he just goes back to training in hopes of becoming a SSJ3 like Goku, with no a new goal to reach his life. And what's to say that Goku can pull in another favour with the Gods in the other-realm and the afterlife, considering how much leverage he seems to have with them, and have Vegeta train with him?

There was no excuse for Goku not to use SSJ3, and even Vegeta acknowledges that in-universe. On top of that, the excuse that Goku gives for not using SSJ3 is incredibly lousy. There was no reason at all for him to keep SSJ3 in his back pocket that time. What was Goku saving it for? The current threat that was endangering the planet was right there and then, and he could have prevented it, and he chose not to. And it leads to billions of people dying and Earth being destroyed.

At the end of the day, this notion that if Vegeta saw Goku go SSJ3 that it would have thrown him way more into the deep end is bullshit. Vegeta wouldn't have cared. Hell, he would have welcomed it. Remember when Vegeta pulled out all the stops to make Cell perfect so that his battle against would be more of a challenge and interesting? That's the same Vegeta we see during his Majin phase. If Goku really understood Vegeta in that scenario, he would have turned SSJ3 in his fight against Vegeta. But he didn't. And Vegeta hated him for that. What Goku did was selfish and reckless. And it also goes to show he's can be a really bad judge of character.

But that makes no sense, the ENTIRE reason Vegeta went to these extremes was to surpass Goku. Realistically, after coming this far do you really think Vegeta was going to say "oh well, I guess you really are better than me?" after waking up from being KO'ed and still Majin possessed? Of course h could have just out right killed Vegeta but it seemed like he was trying to get Vegeta to work together with him so I'm not too sure that's what he wanted. So the question is Goku goes SSJ3 and then what? What is the realistic aftermath of this scenario you are proposing?

He kicks Vegeta's ass, then Kick Dabra's ass, prevents Majin Buu..........
Vegeta starts training again to surpass Goku, the end.

That's a lot for a guy who uses up his time on earth going SSJ3 to do... just saying.... you're saying it like it's that easy and Babidi won't just run off now with a Really Pissed Majin Possesed Vegeta as his slave. Remember the WHOLE reason they are even in that scenario is that Goku is surpasses Vegeta. There's no way in Gods green earth he's going to take that lying down. He will start training and killing people to get him to come back from other world. It doesn't end with Vegeta going back to a normal life. Vegeta literally sold his freedom for the opportunity to be stronger than Goku. At that point he is Majin Vegeta he will kill every last person in the universe just to get stronger and force a rematch with Goku. He doesn't just stop being Majin Vegeta because Goku roughed him up a bit. Narratively Vegeta shows the lengths hes willing to go to, the idea that he's just going to be "ok" with it after that is silly.

[dbs fanboy]

But that makes no sense, the ENTIRE reason Vegeta went to these extremes was to surpass Goku. Realistically, after coming this far do you really think Vegeta was going to say "oh well, I guess you really are better than me?" after waking up from being KO'ed and still Majin possessed? Of course h could have just out right killed Vegeta but it seemed like he was trying to get Vegeta to work together with him so I'm not too sure that's what he wanted. So the question is Goku goes SSJ3 and then what? What is the realistic aftermath of this scenario you are proposing?

He kicks Vegeta's ass, then Kick Dabra's ass, prevents Majin Buu..........
Vegeta starts training again to surpass Goku, the end.

That's a lot for a guy who uses up his time on earth going SSJ3 to do... just saying.... you're saying it like it's that easy and Babidi won't just run off now with a Really Pissed Majin Possesed Vegeta as his slave. Remember the WHOLE reason they are even in that scenario is that Goku is surpasses Vegeta. There's no way in Gods green earth he's going to take that lying down. He will start training and killing people to get him to come back from other world. It doesn't end with Vegeta going back to a normal life. Vegeta literally sold his freedom for the opportunity to be stronger than Goku. At that point he is Majin Vegeta he will kill every last person in the universe just to get stronger and force a rematch with Goku. He doesn't just stop being Majin Vegeta because Goku roughed him up a bit. Narratively Vegeta shows the lengths hes willing to go to, the idea that he's just going to be "ok" with it after that is silly.

Why would Vegeta go with Babidi? he does whatever he wants, he disobeyed him earlier, he can do it twice, also you're assuming that Babidi would escape from Gohan, Goku, Kaioshin and Piccolo.

[TheMikado]

He kicks Vegeta's ass, then Kick Dabra's ass, prevents Majin Buu..........
Vegeta starts training again to surpass Goku, the end.

That's a lot for a guy who uses up his time on earth going SSJ3 to do... just saying.... you're saying it like it's that easy and Babidi won't just run off now with a Really Pissed Majin Possesed Vegeta as his slave. Remember the WHOLE reason they are even in that scenario is that Goku is surpasses Vegeta. There's no way in Gods green earth he's going to take that lying down. He will start training and killing people to get him to come back from other world. It doesn't end with Vegeta going back to a normal life. Vegeta literally sold his freedom for the opportunity to be stronger than Goku. At that point he is Majin Vegeta he will kill every last person in the universe just to get stronger and force a rematch with Goku. He doesn't just stop being Majin Vegeta because Goku roughed him up a bit. Narratively Vegeta shows the lengths hes willing to go to, the idea that he's just going to be "ok" with it after that is silly.

Why would Vegeta go with Babidi? he does whatever he wants, he disobeyed him earlier, he can do it twice, also you're assuming that Babidi would escape from Gohan, Goku, Kaioshin and Piccolo.

If Babidi promises he can make Vegeta more powerful especially following being defeated by SSJ3 Goku, you're telling me he wouldn't? Dabura is still around and Gohan and Kaioshin by themselves likely aren't taking out those too. You're also assuming Goku is still around long enough although he probably should be. I don't know what Piccolo is supposed to do as a statue. You're basically bankingbthe entire universe on Goku not running out of time to complete everything as SSJ3.

[dbs fanboy]

That's a lot for a guy who uses up his time on earth going SSJ3 to do... just saying.... you're saying it like it's that easy and Babidi won't just run off now with a Really Pissed Majin Possesed Vegeta as his slave. Remember the WHOLE reason they are even in that scenario is that Goku is surpasses Vegeta. There's no way in Gods green earth he's going to take that lying down. He will start training and killing people to get him to come back from other world. It doesn't end with Vegeta going back to a normal life. Vegeta literally sold his freedom for the opportunity to be stronger than Goku. At that point he is Majin Vegeta he will kill every last person in the universe just to get stronger and force a rematch with Goku. He doesn't just stop being Majin Vegeta because Goku roughed him up a bit. Narratively Vegeta shows the lengths hes willing to go to, the idea that he's just going to be "ok" with it after that is silly.

Why would Vegeta go with Babidi? he does whatever he wants, he disobeyed him earlier, he can do it twice, also you're assuming that Babidi would escape from Gohan, Goku, Kaioshin and Piccolo.

If Babidi promises he can make Vegeta more powerful especially following being defeated by SSJ3 Goku, you're telling me he wouldn't? Dabura is still around and Gohan and Kaioshin by themselves likely aren't taking out those too. You're also assuming Goku is still around long enough although he probably should be. I don't know what Piccolo is supposed to do as a statue. You're basically bankingbthe entire universe on Goku not running out of time to complete everything as SSJ3.

Goku as a ssj 3 could easily defeat majin Vegeta and one shot dabura, that's it. As Dabura would be Killed, Piccolo would be able to move, Babidi would not be able to escape, i mean i'm assuming that Goku is around long enough because it wouldn't take him so much time in knocking Vegeta off and Killing Dabura, or just defeating Vegeta and killing Babidi while Gohan fights Dabura. to then Help Gohan defeating Dabura. The point is, realistically after turning ssj 3, Goku could have done a lot of things.

[TheMikado]

Why would Vegeta go with Babidi? he does whatever he wants, he disobeyed him earlier, he can do it twice, also you're assuming that Babidi would escape from Gohan, Goku, Kaioshin and Piccolo.

If Babidi promises he can make Vegeta more powerful especially following being defeated by SSJ3 Goku, you're telling me he wouldn't? Dabura is still around and Gohan and Kaioshin by themselves likely aren't taking out those too. You're also assuming Goku is still around long enough although he probably should be. I don't know what Piccolo is supposed to do as a statue. You're basically bankingbthe entire universe on Goku not running out of time to complete everything as SSJ3.

Goku as a ssj 3 could easily defeat majin Vegeta and one shot dabura, that's it. As Dabura would be Killed, Piccolo would be able to move, Babidi would not be able to escape, i mean i'm assuming that Goku is around long enough because it wouldn't take him so much time in knocking Vegeta off and Killing Dabura, or just defeating Vegeta and killing Babidi while Gohan fights Dabura. to then Help Gohan defeating Dabura. The point is, realistically after turning ssj 3, Goku could have done a lot of things.

But that's something we only know in hindsight, for all Goku knew it could have drained his time to 5 mins. The point I'm making is that Goku had some choices to make and limited time. Was it worth the risk of going SSJ3 just to put down Vegeta who was no immediate threat to the universe at this stage and could possibly help stop Buu, or was it better to preserve his time and energy in case actually needed it later. We only know after the fact that he probably would have had enough time, but had he transformed, one shotted Vegeta and immediately disappeared to other world what state would that have left the situation in? It's easy to say he made the wrong decision because we know many of the factors, but again there is a certain amount of risk in each choice. Goku knows going SSJ3 is putting a lot of eggs in a single basket, Goku even states he didn't use it in case he really needed it later so it shows he was planning ahead to a certain extent. Again we only know he should have used it because we know he had enough time as the audience and only after the character had already made the hard decision.

[dbs fanboy]

If Babidi promises he can make Vegeta more powerful especially following being defeated by SSJ3 Goku, you're telling me he wouldn't? Dabura is still around and Gohan and Kaioshin by themselves likely aren't taking out those too. You're also assuming Goku is still around long enough although he probably should be. I don't know what Piccolo is supposed to do as a statue. You're basically bankingbthe entire universe on Goku not running out of time to complete everything as SSJ3.

Goku as a ssj 3 could easily defeat majin Vegeta and one shot dabura, that's it. As Dabura would be Killed, Piccolo would be able to move, Babidi would not be able to escape, i mean i'm assuming that Goku is around long enough because it wouldn't take him so much time in knocking Vegeta off and Killing Dabura, or just defeating Vegeta and killing Babidi while Gohan fights Dabura. to then Help Gohan defeating Dabura. The point is, realistically after turning ssj 3, Goku could have done a lot of things.

But that's something we only know in hindsight, for all Goku knew it could have drained his time to 5 mins. The point I'm making is that Goku had some choices to make and limited time. Was it worth the risk of going SSJ3 just to put down Vegeta who was no immediate threat to the universe at this stage and could possibly help stop Buu, or was it better to preserve his time and energy in case actually needed it later. We only know after the fact that he probably would have had enough time, but had he transformed, one shotted Vegeta and immediately disappeared to other world what state would that have left the situation in? It's easy to say he made the wrong decision because we know many of the factors, but again there is a certain amount of risk in each choice. Goku knows going SSJ3 is putting a lot of eggs in a single basket, Goku even states he didn't use it in case he really needed it later so it shows he was planning ahead to a certain extent. Again we only know he should have used it because we know he had enough time as the audience and only after the character had already made the hard decision.

I can't really know what was Goku thinking or planning, but honestly, even if he didn't know what would happen next, it was his battle with Vegeta (if i'm not wrong) what gave a lot of energy to Buu, if he defeated Vegeta in a short amount of time, then at least Buu wouldn't have received that massive amount of energy. Gohan could then defeat Dabura and Kaioshin could kill Babidi.

[TheMikado]

Goku as a ssj 3 could easily defeat majin Vegeta and one shot dabura, that's it. As Dabura would be Killed, Piccolo would be able to move, Babidi would not be able to escape, i mean i'm assuming that Goku is around long enough because it wouldn't take him so much time in knocking Vegeta off and Killing Dabura, or just defeating Vegeta and killing Babidi while Gohan fights Dabura. to then Help Gohan defeating Dabura. The point is, realistically after turning ssj 3, Goku could have done a lot of things.

But that's something we only know in hindsight, for all Goku knew it could have drained his time to 5 mins. The point I'm making is that Goku had some choices to make and limited time. Was it worth the risk of going SSJ3 just to put down Vegeta who was no immediate threat to the universe at this stage and could possibly help stop Buu, or was it better to preserve his time and energy in case actually needed it later. We only know after the fact that he probably would have had enough time, but had he transformed, one shotted Vegeta and immediately disappeared to other world what state would that have left the situation in? It's easy to say he made the wrong decision because we know many of the factors, but again there is a certain amount of risk in each choice. Goku knows going SSJ3 is putting a lot of eggs in a single basket, Goku even states he didn't use it in case he really needed it later so it shows he was planning ahead to a certain extent. Again we only know he should have used it because we know he had enough time as the audience and only after the character had already made the hard decision.

I can't really know what was Goku thinking or planning, but honestly, even if he didn't know what would happen next, it was his battle with Vegeta (if i'm not wrong) what gave a lot of energy to Buu, if he defeated Vegeta in a short amount of time, then at least Buu wouldn't have received that massive amount of energy. Gohan could then defeat Dabura and Kaioshin could kill Babidi.

They already got half the energy they needed from Gohan at the tournament. Gohan was having trouble with Dabura so a one on one fight probably would have released Buu regardless. And that's assuming Dabura doesn't just catch Gohan with his stone spit. Remember Buu is the one who defeated Dabura not Gohan. Kaioshin had millions of years to fight and kill Badibi. I'm sure he's not going down easily.
And what happens when Vegeta wakes up assuming Goku didn't kill him?

[dbs fanboy]

But that's something we only know in hindsight, for all Goku knew it could have drained his time to 5 mins. The point I'm making is that Goku had some choices to make and limited time. Was it worth the risk of going SSJ3 just to put down Vegeta who was no immediate threat to the universe at this stage and could possibly help stop Buu, or was it better to preserve his time and energy in case actually needed it later. We only know after the fact that he probably would have had enough time, but had he transformed, one shotted Vegeta and immediately disappeared to other world what state would that have left the situation in? It's easy to say he made the wrong decision because we know many of the factors, but again there is a certain amount of risk in each choice. Goku knows going SSJ3 is putting a lot of eggs in a single basket, Goku even states he didn't use it in case he really needed it later so it shows he was planning ahead to a certain extent. Again we only know he should have used it because we know he had enough time as the audience and only after the character had already made the hard decision.

I can't really know what was Goku thinking or planning, but honestly, even if he didn't know what would happen next, it was his battle with Vegeta (if i'm not wrong) what gave a lot of energy to Buu, if he defeated Vegeta in a short amount of time, then at least Buu wouldn't have received that massive amount of energy. Gohan could then defeat Dabura and Kaioshin could kill Babidi.

They already got half the energy they needed from Gohan at the tournament. Gohan was having trouble with Dabura so a one on one fight probably would have released Buu regardless. And that's assuming Dabura doesn't just catch Gohan with his stone spit. Remember Buu is the one who defeated Dabura not Gohan. Kaioshin had millions of years to fight and kill Badibi. I'm sure he's not going down easily.
And what happens when Vegeta wakes up assuming Goku didn't kill him?

1.Well at this point i would only be able to speculate without any base to justify my thoughts so i don't really know.
2.I'm pretty sure he would start screaming like mad

[Totamo]

GT Goku if I can remember correctly never really fought for the sake of fighting, but for other people. When before it was coincidence that he saved lives.The only other reason he fought was vengeance

You can say that's development all you want to but that does change the character from what he represents. The fighter who strives to be the best for the sake of it.


There is only one time in Z, Goku fought for another and that was with raditz. For his son.

Goku explicatively stated he was fighting Freeza for the sake of the Saiyans and Namekians. He also gave his life twice to save Earth and was given the special treatment in the afterlife for doing various heroic deeds.

For a good fight, Goku would. He has dragon balls, he can just fix it. That's what he told bulma when Buu was about to kill her parents.

That's Goku. He has shown that side of himself time and time again. Hell, I put money that Goku would have done the same thing Vegeta did during the Cell saga.

But Goku wasn't letting Bulma's parents killed for the sake of a good fight. He was training Goten and Trunks to learn fusion which was very important.

And yes... prepare to lose that money and learn to come correct next time.

You be right if after they learn the dragon Ball radar can be destroyed, they do go get it plus Goku could have ended buu if he wanted to but he threw it on Goten and trunks when it was never their responsibility.


Goku started this weird habit of forcing people who have no business fighting , do it for him in the cell saga. during that 10 day gap, Goku should have found a way to achieve super saiyan 2 just like gohan did. He later achieves it anyway so does vegeta.

and no, goku would have done it. He has let an ex villain go just to fight him again, he allowed freeza to power up after he killed his best friend and he gave a cell a senzu bean for a fair fight. Goku would have done it.

Now, Ball Goku would not have done it, because Goku was actually much more selfless there, Z Goku would have, unless you have proof that Goku wouldn't allow his villains to reach their maximum power for a good fight.

Also I missed your first paragraph but no, Goku goes to namek to fight freeza with excitement. King Kai warns him to stay away from Freeza and he ignores him. Goku did not sacrifice himself against Raditz to save the world, it was to save his son. That's why he teamed up with Piccolo or are going to say that they both did it to save the world.

Goku did do it with Cell but it was his own fault for allowing this whole thing just like vegeta with buu.


And like I said before, In ball, goku was selfless and he did many things without expecting a reward.

Not in Z People say super changed goku's character. Z did it first In my eyes.

[TheMikado]

GT Goku if I can remember correctly never really fought for the sake of fighting, but for other people. When before it was coincidence that he saved lives.The only other reason he fought was vengeance

You can say that's development all you want to but that does change the character from what he represents. The fighter who strives to be the best for the sake of it.


There is only one time in Z, Goku fought for another and that was with raditz. For his son.

Goku explicatively stated he was fighting Freeza for the sake of the Saiyans and Namekians. He also gave his life twice to save Earth and was given the special treatment in the afterlife for doing various heroic deeds.

For a good fight, Goku would. He has dragon balls, he can just fix it. That's what he told bulma when Buu was about to kill her parents.

That's Goku. He has shown that side of himself time and time again. Hell, I put money that Goku would have done the same thing Vegeta did during the Cell saga.

But Goku wasn't letting Bulma's parents killed for the sake of a good fight. He was training Goten and Trunks to learn fusion which was very important.

And yes... prepare to lose that money and learn to come correct next time.

You be right if after they learn the dragon Ball radar can be destroyed, they do go get it plus Goku could have ended buu if he wanted to but he threw it on Goten and trunks when it was never their responsibility.


Goku started this weird habit of forcing people who have no business fighting , do it for him in the cell saga. during that 10 day gap, Goku should have found a way to achieve super saiyan 2 just like gohan did. He later achieves it anyway so does vegeta.

and no, goku would have done it. He has let an ex villain go just to fight him again, he allowed freeza to power up after he killed his best friend and he gave a cell a senzu bean for a fair fight. Goku would have done it.

Now, Ball Goku would not have done it, because Goku was actually much more selfless there, Z Goku would have, unless you have proof that Goku wouldn't allow his villains to reach their maximum power for a good fight.

Pretty sure he wanted to stop Buu from being resurrected full power and wasbt happy about Vegeta being Majin Possesed even though it meant a better fight for him. Basically what we've been taking about for the last two pages.

[Totamo]

[quote="TekTheNinja"][quote="Totamo"]
For a good fight, Goku would. He has dragon balls, he can just fix it. That's what he told bulma when Buu was about to kill her parents.[/quote]
No, that wasn't even remotely the same thing. You're pulling that outta your ass. What happened there was that they had to risk lives to save lives. They had to let Buu kill some people so they could buy time to actually defeat him, so it was entirely for the greater good. Hell, it had nothing to do with Goku getting a good fight since at that point the goal was to have Gotenks beat Buu.

DBZAOTA Covered pretty much everything wrong with your other claims, but I felt like this one needed expanded on a bit...
[quote]That's Goku. He has shown that side of himself time and time again.[/quote]
Nope. Rewatch the series. It seems like DBS has brainwashed you, dude. [/quote]
Goku could have stopped Buu himself, hell goku could have stopped buu from revving by taking out vegeta instantly.


Oh really, Goku wouldn't risk lives for a fight or for others to fight?

He heals piccolo jr and let's him go to fight him again. He lets vegeta go to fight him again after he indirectly killed all of his friends. He allows Freeza to power up to his best, because he wants to beat him at his best. If freeza was stronger than goku, at full power, he would have killed people, when trunks warns him about the androids, instead of finding a way to stop Gero he allows it all for a fight and no goku could have found a way to stop it without killing gero, Goku throws cell a senzu bean just get the best out of gohan, Goku fights Majin vegeta evenly when we later learn he could have stopped him and don't say he only did it to stop him from killing people, when he could have easily knocked vegeta out with super saiyan 3, he also threatens supreme kai when he tries to stop them, goku throws the fight against Majin buu just so his kids can have a chance even though it was not their responsibility, goku does this with super buu when he says he can't beat him but Gohan can, when we later find out that goku can beat buuicolo who is stronger than super buu, then goku doesn't go all out against kid buu just so he and vegeta can take turns and refuses to do fusion because it's not their style.


Goku however does regret some of these actions but he does them again in later sagas. Goku and vegeta mess up so many times in z, all for battle.Which I love about them

[Totamo]

Goku explicatively stated he was fighting Freeza for the sake of the Saiyans and Namekians. He also gave his life twice to save Earth and was given the special treatment in the afterlife for doing various heroic deeds.


But Goku wasn't letting Bulma's parents killed for the sake of a good fight. He was training Goten and Trunks to learn fusion which was very important.

And yes... prepare to lose that money and learn to come correct next time.

You be right if after they learn the dragon Ball radar can be destroyed, they do go get it plus Goku could have ended buu if he wanted to but he threw it on Goten and trunks when it was never their responsibility.


Goku started this weird habit of forcing people who have no business fighting , do it for him in the cell saga. during that 10 day gap, Goku should have found a way to achieve super saiyan 2 just like gohan did. He later achieves it anyway so does vegeta.

and no, goku would have done it. He has let an ex villain go just to fight him again, he allowed freeza to power up after he killed his best friend and he gave a cell a senzu bean for a fair fight. Goku would have done it.

Now, Ball Goku would not have done it, because Goku was actually much more selfless there, Z Goku would have, unless you have proof that Goku wouldn't allow his villains to reach their maximum power for a good fight.

Pretty sure he wanted to stop Buu from being resurrected full power and wasbt happy about Vegeta being Majin Possesed even though it meant a better fight for him. Basically what we've been taking about for the last two pages.

You are not understanding me. Goku COULD have stopped the whole thing the entire time. He could have stopped Majin vegeta, he could have stopped Majin buu, he could have stopped super buu and he could have stopped kid buu.

But he doesn't, he throws it on everyone else and it results in the entire planet being destroyed including his family.

Why? For a fight, to please someone else who wants a fight, make others fight for him or pride in a fight.

[DBZAOTA482]

You be right if after they learn the dragon Ball radar can be destroyed, they do go get it plus Goku could have ended buu if he wanted to but he threw it on Goten and trunks when it was never their responsibility.

And it doesn't prove your incredibly flawed point. Also, Goku was dead at the time and couldn't stay for long so Earth did need a protector so he had to make sure Goten and Trunks were up to the task. Dunno why people are holding this against Goku.

Goku started this weird habit of forcing people who have no business fighting , do it for him in the cell saga. during that 10 day gap, Goku should have found a way to achieve super saiyan 2 just like gohan did. He later achieves it anyway so does vegeta.

Goku explicatively stated he reached a plateau with the RoSaT and he didn't have access to special training like with the afterlife.

and no, goku would have done it. He has let an ex villain go just to fight him again, he allowed freeza to power up after he killed his best friend and he gave a cell a senzu bean for a fair fight. Goku would have done it.

It was well-established Goku wasn't exactly himself when he first became SSJ and he wanted to humiliate Freeza for the horrible things he did. Also, feeding Cell a senzu changed practically nothing. He was confident in Gohan's abilities and he was right on that regard... he was only wrong telling Gohan about his plans.

Now, Ball Goku would not have done it, because Goku was actually much more selfless there, Z Goku would have, unless you have proof that Goku wouldn't allow his villains to reach their maximum power for a good fight.

There's nothing to disprove because you said nothing. The stuff you mentioned isn't the same as the guy (Vegeta) who was actively helping the villain achieve his goals (which involved killing an innocent person) even attacking his own son and was generally a terrible person.

Also I missed your first paragraph but no, Goku goes to namek to fight freeza with excitement. King Kai warns him to stay away from Freeza and he ignores him. Goku did not sacrifice himself against Raditz to save the world, it was to save his son. That's why he teamed up with Piccolo or are going to say that they both did it to save the world.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

And if it were only really about his son then he would've accepted Raditz's offer to join him.

Honestly, people like you are cancerous to the whole community. Vilifying Goku as this selfish asshole who only cares about satisfying his battle boner yet claiming yourself as a "real" fan.

This is why we can't have nice things...

[Miracles]

This is what makes Kakarot awesome.
NEGLECT EVERYTHING FOR FIGHTING BABY!

[TekTheNinja]

This is what makes Kakarot awesome.
NEGLECT EVERYTHING FOR FIGHTING BABY!

No. If anything, reducing him to one character trait like this makes him nothing but a bland asshole.

[Totamo]

You be right if after they learn the dragon Ball radar can be destroyed, they do go get it plus Goku could have ended buu if he wanted to but he threw it on Goten and trunks when it was never their responsibility.

And it doesn't prove your incredibly flawed point. Also, Goku was dead at the time and couldn't stay for long so Earth did need a protector so he had to make sure Goten and Trunks were up to the task. Dunno why people are holding this against Goku.

Goku started this weird habit of forcing people who have no business fighting , do it for him in the cell saga. during that 10 day gap, Goku should have found a way to achieve super saiyan 2 just like gohan did. He later achieves it anyway so does vegeta.

Goku explicatively stated he reached a plateau with the RoSaT and he didn't have access to special training like with the afterlife.

and no, goku would have done it. He has let an ex villain go just to fight him again, he allowed freeza to power up after he killed his best friend and he gave a cell a senzu bean for a fair fight. Goku would have done it.

It was well-established Goku wasn't exactly himself when he first became SSJ and he wanted to humiliate Freeza for the horrible things he did. Also, feeding Cell a senzu changed practically nothing. He was confident in Gohan's abilities and he was right on that regard... he was only wrong telling Gohan about his plans.

Now, Ball Goku would not have done it, because Goku was actually much more selfless there, Z Goku would have, unless you have proof that Goku wouldn't allow his villains to reach their maximum power for a good fight.

There's nothing to disprove because you said nothing. The stuff you mentioned isn't the same as the guy (Vegeta) who was actively helping the villain achieve his goals (which involved killing an innocent person) even attacking his own son and was generally a terrible person.

Also I missed your first paragraph but no, Goku goes to namek to fight freeza with excitement. King Kai warns him to stay away from Freeza and he ignores him. Goku did not sacrifice himself against Raditz to save the world, it was to save his son. That's why he teamed up with Piccolo or are going to say that they both did it to save the world.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

And if it were only really about his son then he would've accepted Raditz's offer to join him.

Honestly, people like you are cancerous to the whole community. Vilifying Goku as this selfish asshole who only cares about satisfying his battle boner yet claiming yourself as a "real" fan.

This is why we can't have nice things...

Oh wow such bullshit to debunk, it's actually astonishing.

1. My flawed point was that Goku let Bulma's parents die for a fight and I was right. He pushed 2 kids to fight for him when they had no business fighting and wasn't to save the world because he would have done it.Also let me make this clear for you: GOKU CAUSED THE BUU SAGA, NOT GOTEN, NOT TRUNKS, NOT GOHAN!! GOKU!!! Him being dead didn't stop him from doing taking responsibility for his actions

2.Don't give me that bullshit!!! Goku is a limit breaker, why the hell would he say he is at his limit? That's not Goku. He only said that line so Gohan would have to fight and what special training, gravity? Hell, vegeta does it in the buu saga so that point is moot.

3.Thats also bullshit, The Super saiyan transformation just makes you more angry and lose self control. It doesn't change your personality otherwise it would have changed trunks and vegeta. It was Goku's choice to stay on namek, all for a fight. Goku tells king kai, he wants him to reach his maximum to fight him at his best. Had nothing to do with humiliation. only example of this is gohan but ultimate form, proves it's just him getting cocky. Also it doesn't fucking matter if the senzu which evidence that it did matter, WHY ARE YOU GIVING SENZUS TO THE VILLAIN TRYING TO DESTROY YOUR WORLD AND YOUR SON!!

also yes goku was right for saying Gohan had the power, piccolo even said it but it had nothing to do with the power, it was about character. Goku was treating his son like himself.Goku projected himself onto his son. even if he told gohan the plan, it would never had work because gohan ,unlike goku, didn't want to fight.


4. Vegeta wasn't trying to help cell achieve his goals, he wanted to test himself in battle. Goku letting villains go was to do the same.

5.https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/imag ... FBfPl5QtD3
Yeah look at that sweet confirmation of me being right. even if that he wanted to fight for the saiyans and namekians it was not the main reason, it was all about the fight.

6. No. Goku is not heartless. He is selfish. Different things. Goku would not kill someone directly unless they were in his way like the red ribbon army. Goku only fought raditz for his son, though. Not the world. if freeza had taken goku's warning and continued his business without bothering goku in anyway shape or form, goku would not have stopped him.


Goku is a selfish character, but if you see him as heroic so be it, we are all free for interpretation but these goku accusations have always been a thing. Goku being a bad father, Goku being an asshole, Goku being a battle junkie. I have heard it way before super.

Hell, there is a reason some people consider TFS Goku more closer than the dub version of dragon Ball z.

[Miracles]

This is what makes Kakarot awesome.
NEGLECT EVERYTHING FOR FIGHTING BABY!

No. If anything, reducing him to one character trait like this makes him nothing but a bland asshole.

No, this trait just outshines the others at times.
This is what makes Kakarot awesome.

[TekTheNinja]

This is what makes Kakarot awesome.
NEGLECT EVERYTHING FOR FIGHTING BABY!

No. If anything, reducing him to one character trait like this makes him nothing but a bland asshole.

No, this trait just outshines the others at times.
This is what makes Kakarot awesome.

This trait outshine ALL of the others ALL of the time in Super. That is not at all awesome.

Hell, there is a reason some people consider TFS Goku more closer than the dub version of dragon Ball z.

No, TFS Goku is a PARODY. Goku acting like TFS Goku in Super is an awful thing since he's literally acting like a parody of himself. Hell, current DBS Goku is even more of a parody than TFS Goku in some ways since at least TFS Goku at least has moments where he cares about other people.

[Miracles]

This trait outshine ALL of the others ALL of the time in Super. That is not at all awesome. .

So, Goku; enraged about Black killing his family, Goku repelling Beerus; realizing that his family will be destroyed with the earth; being concerned about Gowasu's life before Whis reversed time. Is all of the time, irresponsible selfish jerk? No, that's just exaggeration, all the time.

[HeroR]

This whole "Vegeta would have fallen deeper into the emotional abyss if Goku used SSJ3 against him" angle is quite frankly absurd. Vegeta was angry at Goku for not going all out in their battle. That was biggest insult to Vegeta. Not that idea he would have been easily defeat by SSJ3 Goku. I don know why people keep ignoring what's stated in the manga for for sake of perpetuating this whole theory that Vegeta would have been emotionally broken over Goku using when it is directly contracted by what's stated in the original story.

Vegeta was clearly been desperate for more power to close gap in strength between him and Goku, but as we later found out, what was Vegeta was far upset over more was Goku not using SSJ3. Vegeta made it very clear that he prioritises losing with dignity in the fact of his opponent fighting with all they have rather than trying the close the gap in power. He was lead to believe to he was facing Goku at his full power but he wasn't. That is what angered Vegeta the most. He was more than willing to essentially make a deal with the devil to catch up with Goku but the fact that Goku did not essentially fight with everything he had, made Vegeta feel as though Goku was mocking him and made his deal with the devil meaningless. Vegeta may have some fucked up priorities, but that's how he view them.

Vegeta may be/may have been somewhat immature in his manor of reacting to those who are stronger to him, but he's not some emotional basket where people need to walk on eggshells to ensure he doesn't the handle with the slightest direct on indirect provocation. If Goku defeats Vegeta, kills Majin Boo and returns the afterlife, nothing would really happen after that. Vegeta take pride in that he lost to Goku at his absolute best, the wish back all the people killed by Vegeta, he's easily forgiven again for his actions, and then he just goes back to training in hopes of becoming a SSJ3 like Goku, with no a new goal to reach his life. And what's to say that Goku can pull in another favour with the Gods in the other-realm and the afterlife, considering how much leverage he seems to have with them, and have Vegeta train with him?

There was no excuse for Goku not to use SSJ3, and even Vegeta acknowledges that in-universe. On top of that, the excuse that Goku gives for not using SSJ3 is incredibly lousy. There was no reason at all for him to keep SSJ3 in his back pocket that time. What was Goku saving it for? The current threat that was endangering the planet was right there and then, and he could have prevented it, and he chose not to. And it leads to billions of people dying and Earth being destroyed.

At the end of the day, this notion that if Vegeta saw Goku go SSJ3 that it would have thrown him way more into the deep end is bullshit. Vegeta wouldn't have cared. Hell, he would have welcomed it. Remember when Vegeta pulled out all the stops to make Cell perfect so that his battle against would be more of a challenge and interesting? That's the same Vegeta we see during his Majin phase. If Goku really understood Vegeta in that scenario, he would have turned SSJ3 in his fight against Vegeta. But he didn't. And Vegeta hated him for that. What Goku did was selfish and reckless. And it also goes to show he's can be a really bad judge of character.

My argument, who the f*ck cares if Vegeta ends up deeper into the emotional abyss? This asshole killed thousands of people, sold out his family, friends, and his own conviction for power. All because he hated Goku and wanted to enjoy being evil again. As far as I am concern, he deserved to be emotionally damaged.