I never suggested that it was a personal attack on people like me to call these guys “basement-level hacks”. That’s a strawman. I’m simply pointing out that calling someone a “basement-level hack” is an unnecessary statement in general. You generally don’t call someone that unless you’re trying to imply that they’re completely without talent and don’t deserve to work, which seems like a childish statement to make. I don’t care for Schemmel or Santa as people, but I do think that it’s unreasonable to make such a condescending remark about them as professional voice actors. I wasn’t personally offended by the statement, I just found it to be without merit, and an attempt to present one’s own opinion as undisputed fact.Kunzait_83 wrote:Both this forum, and the broader fanbase overall, is FILLED to the brim with people who interpret ANY criticism of these actors as a personal affront. No, I don't think that ALL dub fans are that bad about it, obviously, as I've met and known plenty who aren't. But its been enough of a relatively consistent thing over the years to constitute a trend and to comment on.WittyUsername wrote:Who is making excuses for anything? No one has ever said that you aren’t allowed to dislike the performances from these people.
It an attack on their work as professionals, not on their personal characters. If someone isn't good at their job, if someone demonstrates a consistent lack of skill at what they do, then its totally within reason to call them out on it.WittyUsername wrote:What I took issue with is this assertion that they’re “basement-level talentless hacks”. How exactly is that supposed to be interpreted as anything other than an uncalled for attack on these people?
This is EXACTLY what I was talking about earlier when fans conflate these two things, when they're in NO WAY the same thing.
An uncalled for personal attack would be if I called Schmmel or Sabat "garbage human beings who are physically ugly and have bad hygiene" (note that's just an example, I DON"T think ANY of that even remotely; again I don't know these people from a hole in the wall, only their work).
Calling them hacks who aren't talented? That's harsh, yes, but its TOTALLY within the realm of their professional work. And I happen to agree with it: they AREN'T very gifted or talented actors, and I have decades worth of work that I've listened to from them throughout the years to come to that conclusion.
If fans want to show that they don't have an overly-personal and sentimentalized stake in this, they can A) stop going on and on and on in countless dub vs sub threads about nostalgia and "this voice cast/music/dub meant everything to my childhood" and using that as if its some kind of valid argument for critical merit, and B) stop getting outraged and personally offended when people speak negatively about their performances, even if the criticism is harsh like this one is.
They weren't good when they first started, and I would argue that they HAVEN'T been good since. They've improved, yes... but the level of improvement has been RIDICULOUSLY incremental, and FAR from the vast gulf of difference that fans often paint it as: like I said, most fans grade this particular cast on a curve.WittyUsername wrote:Disliking a performance doesn’t mean you have to claim that the person behind the performance is a hack. It has nothing to with “nostalgia”, especially since most would agree that these guys weren’t good when they first started doing these roles.
And yes, disliking an actor's work to the point where you don't think they have talent ABSOLUTELY means you have claim to call them a "hack". Here's the literal, Merriam-Webster definition of the term "hack" within this context:
Calling these actors out as working within a context of lowered, mediocre professional standards is, given the general history of this particular production especially, something I find to be TOTALLY fair and valid to call them out on.
A hack isn't purely an ad-hominem insult within this context: it is a totally valid criticism of the merits (or lack thereof) of their professional work.
You're more than free to disagree with me on just about anything: I only call someone a nostalgic fanboy when they take criticisms of these actors' work as PERSONAL INSULTS, which is something that the dub's fanbase has a VERY long, long, long, looooooong history of doing now.WittyUsername wrote:Also, you seem to be operating under the assumption that your opinion is the undisputed truth, and that anyone who disagrees is a childishly blind nostalgic fanboy.
And for that matter, that's the ONLY thing I've called "childish" about any of this: internalizing these performances into one's own identity, to the point that someone WOULD feel insulted and personally attacked when these performances are criticized.
THAT is UNQUESTIONABLY childish thinking, and its something that this particular fanbase, again, has a LOOOOOONG history with doing.
Liking the FUNimation performances in and of themselves? No, that's NOT childish, and people are more than free to have that opinion and disagree with my take, and I'd never call them childish (or whatever else) for it.
The fact that you yourself are conflating words I'm using to describe SPECIFIC behaviors and reactions within DBZ dub fandom with me using them on ANYONE who disagrees with me in a general sense... you're only proving my point further here.
For what its worth, I've met plenty of reasonable dub fans who are nuanced and thoughtful in their approach to this. They aren't who my comments were aimed at. I've met plenty of people here who I disagree with, that I wouldn't consider "blinded by nostalgia" or over-personalizing these performances, or whatever. But for every one or two of those folks, I've also come across ten or fifteen more who's knee-jerk response to "Sabat's Vegeta is really shitty" is "Why you gotta be so MEEEEEAN?!!??!" as if the criticism is aimed at THEM personally rather than just some random actor they've never met before and don't know from Adam.WittyUsername wrote:That’s not only demeaning, but it also doesn’t seem to take into account that people have differing opinions on this.
That's fine that you think that. And I simply don't agree with your assessment at all. To me while yes, they HAVE improved somewhat, they STILL sound painfully awkward, forced, and ill-fitting in these roles. Part of that is because of the innate approach taken to the vocal direction: EVERY FUNimation DB dub has most often shown an aversion to naturalistic, conversational performances, insisting instead that each actor does an over the top caricature for their voice. It sounds forced, inorganic, and downright painful to the ears of someone who isn't going into this with the mindset of "I'm about to watch a dumpy Satuday morning kiddie POW POW BANG BANG cartoon show".WittyUsername wrote:To people like me, Sean Schemmel, Chris Sabat and Sonny Strait have improved immensely compared to how they were when they first started voice acting. Yes, they were just “some guys off the street” when they first began voicing these characters, but that’s no longer an accurate statement. They’ve been voice acting for 20 years. By all accounts, they’re considered professionals at this point, even if you aren’t fond of their performances.
They aren't good performances, and they're wholly lacking in anything resembling charisma, charm, or simple, basic, grounded human emotion. And that's due to the nature of the vocal and overall creative direction itself, and to the fact that the "arc" of improvement in these performances has NEVER come across to me as NEARLY as stark as people like yourself have often painted it as. If the FUNimation cast were "completely and wholly unlistenable" when they first started, then they've since then graduated on to "just generally cringingly awful".
Once again, you're welcome to disagree with me: but without accusing either YOU personally of this, or anyone else here in particular: GENERALLY SPEAKING here I've found that its most often case that MOST fans (not ALL, but MOST) are overly lax on these guys (and inflate/exaggerate their degree of improvement over the years) both because they're personally invested in their performances for personal nostalgic reasons, and/or because they simply don't have a lot of experience with viewing TV shows or movies that aren't children's cartoons and are aimed at more mature audiences (and thus tend to have MUCH higher standards for acting: usually at least).
1) Once again, it ISN'T a personal insult: its a PROFESSIONAL insult, and there IS a huge difference between the two. No one here is saying that Schemmel and Sabat are bad people: SOME of us (very, very few in fact) are simply suggesting that their abject lack of voice acting talent, as well as the general arc of their careers, would seem to suggest that the main reason they've remained in these roles for so long, despite a woefully incremental degree of improvement in them, is due to company politics, as well as the enthusiasm of the fanbase (who's views I vehemently disagree with for numerous reasons I've already elaborated on in great detail).WittyUsername wrote:Once again, I will stress that it’s okay to not like them in these roles. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. The only issue that people have taken with Kamiccolo’s comment is this idea that these people are talentless hacks who only still have careers because of how long they’ve been around. That’s an insulting thing to suggest, especially since someone who isn’t fond of Masako Nozawa’s Goku could easily claim the same thing about her.
FUNimation also of course, being no strangers to nepotistic company practices anyways: nepotism is literally the SOLE and ONLY reason they EVER first obtained the U.S. licensing rights to Dragon Ball in the first place.
2) It wouldn't be a "personal insult" to suggest this about Nozawa, no: again, arguing that someone is a "hack" is something that MAINLY applies to their professional work. Its a VERY FUCKING HARSH critical appraisal of their work, yes... but its still ultimately just a critical appraisal of their work, not of their personal character.
In Nozawa's case, such an appraisal would mainly just look somewhat ridiculous, given both her overall acting career as well as the critically lauded nature of many of her performances: she isn't SOLELY known as Goku over in Japan, she's also been the voice behind Tetsuro Hoshino from Galaxy Express 999, a role and series that can be argued to be of MUCH greater artistic, cultural, and critical importance among anime over in Japan than Goku and Dragon Ball are, among countless other roles that she and the rest of the Japanese cast have done over the years (many of which genuinely ARE iconic and of actual substantive critical merit).
NO ONE among FUNimation's Dragon Ball cast has anything that's within the same UNIVERSE of professional credentials as most of the Japanese cast: the FUNimation cast have been working steadily throughout the years, but the nature of their work hasn't exactly been often the most stellar in quality or critical merit (Schemmel in particular being a clear example of this). It'd be sort of like saying that someone like Jodie Foster (just to pull a random respected actress out of a hat) is a "hack": you can say it and think it, it'll just make you look kinda ridiculous in most conversations.
I couldn't care less what people say about actors whose work I like. I don't know any of them, they aren't my friends or family. I don't get personally offended or insulted by any of this nonsense, because I'm a functional adult with a real life who doesn't internalize cartoons I watched as a child to be tantamount to my own personal identity and character.WittyUsername wrote:Just an FYI, I’m not in anyway suggesting that Nozawa is bad as Goku. She’s iconic in the role for the reason, and that reason goes beyond the fact that she’s been voicing the characters since 1986. I’m just pointing out that if you’re going to claim that an actor is only still around because of inertia or backstage nepotism, you should be prepared for people to say the same thing about actors who you do like.
THAT ultimately is what I was mainly coming down on with regards to dub fans who over-defend these actors' work: not general, level-headed folks who simply enjoy the performances for their own personal reasons, and don't get overly hostile and defensive or stake a personal investment into each and every negative utterance made against them.
I never suggested that it was bad to express your dislike for their performances, or to express the desire to see them replaced. The problem was that you made a generalization about anyone who might like the dub voices, by calling them “childish” and saying that they’re blinded by nostalgia. That’s uncalled for, and it wasn’t what I made this thread for.
Finally, this debate was never about how Funimation obtained the license to the series. Pretty much everyone these days agrees that Funimation’s early work on the franchise was lousy anyway. This debate was about how the older voices are still around, which I was arguing has more to do with their own credentials over anything else. I don’t give a crap about Funimation as a company. I’ve barely even watched their dub of Super.
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