jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 6:03 am
dva_raza wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 5:51 am
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 5:39 am
You
are confused, dude. I don't know how much clearer I can make myself.
Goku doesn't want to crush Vegeta and make him realize that he just sold his soul to accomplish nothing.
So instead of using the transformation, he lies and tells him he's going all out. That way, Vegeta thinks they're having an even battle that he can win, and never knows that Goku was just stringing him along. The most important priority here is making sure Vegeta's ego isn't completely deflated over a crushing defeat, and lying helps prevent a secondary meltdown about being pitied provided he doesn't actually catch him in the lie.
Because, you know,
the entire point of lying to somebody to protect their feelings is so they don't know you're lying to protect their feelings.
Goku knew that Vegeta would be offended if he knew he was holding back, he just thought his lie was airtight enough that it wouldn't ever come up. People don't tend to lie with the intention of getting caught.
Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ back at you.
I have honestly no idea what is unclear about the fact that if your own claim that Goku KNOWS that what Vegeta would truly want is for him to use SS3, then he would use that
precisely to give Vegeta what Vegeta wants.
What you are asking me is literally why would somebody lie to somebody when they know the person will be offended about being lied to.
You are asking me to explain a basic human interaction here.
When somebody lies, they don't expect to be caught.
OK, so now I understand (your) confusion.
I mean, no wonder.
You're saying that "I
literally asked you something" ---
THAT I LITERALLY NEVER DID.
Like.. wtf?..
Maybe check the posts again? Because I never even said that word.
And I was in fact kinda wondering why you kept explaining to me how "lying" works when it's not something I touched on at any point.
Anyway. I explain once more what I find contradicting about your 2 notions.
(Which is btw something YOU picked and fixated on. Not me. But I'll get back to that.)
1. You’re saying
Goku KNOWS Vegeta would want him to use SS3
2. You’re saying that Goku didn't use SS3 because he didn't want to "patronize" Vegeta
If Goku
knew THAT VEGETA WOULD WANT HIM TO USE SS3, there is ----
NO REASON WHATSOEVER----, him being the straightforward person that he is, that instead of USING SS3, he would go for the "not patronizing Vegeta" option (whether he was expecting Vegeta to find out later or not is a totally irrelevant!)
If Goku he knows in his heart Vegeta would NOT want Goku's pity, then
of course he would simply go for the option of NOT pitying him, instead of going for the "I'm gonna give him a fair shot" nonsense.
I don't see why the fuck he would want to "give Vegeta a fair shot" when being
truly respectful to Vegeta is the other option at the table, and ESPECIALLY when that option also includes stopping the bigger threat!
Which is why, because of how nonsensical that complete notion is, I am saying that:
I do not agree with you affirmation that Goku KNEW just how much Vegeta would’ve preferred for him to use his latest form against him. If he really knew, he would simply do what he knows is fair. Since he DIDN’T do that, your argument about Goku knowing how Vegeta would react, falls apart.
A reminder though that we are talking about headcanons right now.
I’m not saying that your take is factually wrong, I’m saying that your take isn’t a fact and there are OTHER different takes to it. And of course you can talk about your interpretation of certain things that are open for that.
What I’m telling you is that you can’t use headcanons to make affirmations about the story.
Like, you’re saying Goku’s motive for going ss3 was to indulge Vegeta and I don’t think that was the motive at all actually, you can project your take of what Goku knew or thought about Vegeta here, but if there is room for interpreting things a different way, which there is, then you can’t make affirmations and claim Goku was being negligent based on those personal interpretations.
Same with your “they are wired the same” phrase that you’re basing your claim that Goku KNOWS how Vegeta would react.
That is totally vague and you can’t use that notion to affirm that Goku factually knows how Vegeta will react.
They are wired the same instinctively and maybe spirituality but that’s about it. They are two different people.
Goku isn't particularly sensitive to what others might feel for him to be thinking such deep takes as the ones you’re presenting like “but Vegeta couldn’t take being pitied, but Vegeta ALSO wouldn’t want to be humiliated”…Dude. Goku’s brain most likely went “wow Vegeta is very strong! But I’m sure I can still beat him”. Like seriosuly, that is MY interpretation of Goku’s thoughts. And guess what, it’s as valid as yours. And there is nothing in canon that either contradicts it nor establishes YOUR interpretation as the “true” one. Goku telling his friends later “I really used my 100% (or went all in, something like that) against Vegeta and he was as strong as me” can be interpreted, in universe, as him not really considering using SS3 when it’s not something he has dominated yet.
And Vegeta is, a cheater. He cheated his way into this power and he cheated his way out of this very fight.
I don't agree that you can make the
affirmation that Goku should KNOW that Vegeta wouldn't just straight up kill him if he even begins to transform.
The way I see it, Vegeta could've easily chose to just end him one second after realizing what’s happening, rather than giving Goku the opportunity of seeing him looking like a fool.
Why would he sit around and let Goku humiliate him when he can one shot him while he’s vulnerable in the transformation process? Vegeta applies the “all is fair in war” thing as his stans brag about so you can’t be sure that his instinctive curiosity and admiration would outdo his fear of being utterly humiliated and therefore stopping it before it completes.
Again, these are subjective takes it can very much be viewed one way or another.
Why are we even talking about this, is because you picked apart this miniscule point out of a larger one I was making, about the fact that Goku has every reason to have doubts regarding how things would turn out (therefore reasonable for him to save the form).
But the only reason we went on this tangent is because you clinged on this idea specifically and
insisted in REMAINING ON IT even after my attempt to return the conversation to the larger point.
(I literally said in one of my replies: "..but going back to the larger point, this and that". You ignored and continued to dig in the same thing)
So. To ACTUALLY go back to the larger point this time,
What I was saying is that it's incorrect to make the affirmation that Goku CHOSE not to use SS3 for a dumb reason like to either play around with Vegeta, or to "not patronize" Vegeta.
None of that is factual and it’s simply an interpretation some of you are making.
I say, that for Goku it's not as clear as it is for you, that using SS3 for the first time on Earth was a good choice in that moment.
Again, for
you it seems like the most obvious response because you know what went on in the story.
But for someone to use a transformation that they haven’t gone through before on Earth against someone as erratic as Vegeta, not knowing how it would work out exactly, how long it would take and how long it would last, not being used to it, not knowing what else is in store on Babbidi’s ship (what if Shin didn't know something, Babbidi never revealed it and Goku's time ends before being able to take care of that, there have been surprises about these sort of things in Z before), or just risking Vegeta not letting him transform (I insist, he CAN'T be sure of Vegeta's reaction), taking the route of “saving” it, is a TOTALLY reasonable and even responsable choice.
Yes! Sometimes being too cautious and not using all the cards you have immediately, turns out to be the wrong choice at the end.
As it was in this case.
But’s
that’s not negligence in the least and that’s not, in this scenario, him “
knowing he can end the situation, but choosing not to” like you all are arguing.
The narrative that Goku was basically wasting time playing around with Vegeta is total BS.
Yeah sure, Goku is always up for fighting a strong opponent but that’s as far as it goes.
There is no indication that he was particularly passionate about fighting Vegeta as Vegeta was about fighting him. It definitely wasn’t his priority throughout that whole day as it was for Vegeta, and even
during the fight, he reminded Vegeta more than once to stop and think about everyone else.
Goku's priority was to
resolve, not to fight Vegeta.
the root cause of this nonsensical argument over the last half-page is because dva_raza refuses to admit Goku did anything wrong here. The contradiction he keeps fixating on is
So dishonest.
First, like I said already. You are literally the one who picked this (kinda random and not even that important) point to dwell in
AND continued talking about it for the days
I wasn’t even here. So maybe lets not do this thing (that you’ve done previously) where you randomly claim that something is the main importance or “something I'm fixated on” just because I
responded to it, please.
I mean it’s hilarious you're complaining about the "nonsensical argument over the last half page" when not only
you are the one who went on the tangent but you also went on for 2 pages exploring a SUBJECTIVE and cheesy psychological take about Goku's intention to "give Vegeta a fair shot", and transformed the thread into a
LITERALLY different topic.
So yeah,
the point I AM fixated on, which I would assume would've been clear (since I have repeated it consistently in EVERY single post I made before your diversion), is that, for like the 5th time now,
nothing anybody did after Vegeta decided to get possessed, is relevant regarding the question of "who is responsable for Majin Buu's release".
This not a conversation about “how things were handled” but about Vegeta’s evil choices and his choice was 100% his OWN.
Second, you are also seemingly confused about what I’ve said regarding Goku’s decision. You interpret waaay too much and you end up missing the point that was said
I LITERALLY NEVER said Goku didn't do a mistake in NOT going SS3.
I admit that it was the wrong choice.
I’m only debunking your claim that Goku chose not to do it for a negligent motive.
You can’t make the affirmation that he did.
You can make your assumptions.
But in a case where it can ALSO be interpreted that he simply wanted to save time and play it safe, which it can be, then that’s that.
You don’t get to AFFIRM your version just “because”.
And that’s important in this argument in which yall suddenly decided to bring Goku into the mix about Vegeta’s evil actions:
In
Gaffer’s take about the firemen. He’s basically presenting the firemen as NEGLIGENT, and that’s again, another
interpretation. To inject additional details into one’s example to ajust it to YOUR argument is dishonest.
I never said anything about anybody being negligent in that example. I said:
they were not able to put out the fire. Because just like in Goku’s case, he wasn’t negligent in the situation.
He made a certain decision, under pressure, with the information he had at the moment which turned out to be a mistake.
There’s a BIG difference there!
Like I said before: you don’t blame people for not being able to resolve something, for what somebody else initiated.
(I mean you clearly are doing that on this conversation) but that really holds no relevance to how things are determined in the
rational world.
If the firemen were being
irresponsable, that’s a totally different thing.
But again, I never said anything about the firemen being irresponsable and the same goes for Goku.
I said that his choice can be viewed exactly the opposite. He was in fact taking a responsable approach, whether it was effective at the end or not.
And also I return to the most
technical point:
That you can call the firemen "jackasses" for fuckin up all you want, but the TECHNICAL question of
“who caused the problem” IS and always will be the person who set the fire.
The firemen have literally nothing to do with that problem initiating. They are not responsable in the fire having been started.
The person who sets the fire is the one who will be blamed in the question of "WHO CAUSED THIS", with the VERY simple concept that had the fire not been started in the first place, the firemen would have no reason to do right or wrong. And you don't responsibilize people for the choice that another person made before they were even involved in it.
And this infantile circling around something as BASIC as: Vegeta sabotaged Buu being killed in his egg, therefore he is 100% guilty for Buu’s eventual release, seems like trolling at this point. It’s like denying that the sky is blue. I can’t possibly reconcile that you honestly are not understanding or denying something so concrete.
Or the nonsense Vijay said about Goku holding 80% of the guilt just because he came down to earth.
Even by “talking about fiction” standarts, this is awful and disturbing “logic” if you can even call it that.
It’s like saying that someone doing something evil because they happend to be obsessed with some person, makes THAT person 80% guilty of the others choices? …seriously..
Vegeta’s issues are NOT Goku’s problem, to be very clear.
Goku is 0% responsable for Buu’s release.
Goku has his own fair share of mistakes throughout the series. But he had
NOTHING to do with Vegeta choosing to be possessed and sabotaging a situation they were minutes away from resolving WITH EASE.
Not before it and not after did he have any responsability to the fact that Vegeta prevented them from eliminating a world threat as they were supposed to. That is it.
Again, you can interpret how “things were handled by others” in THAT conversation but I remind you for the 4387824368th time, that this conversation is (was at least) about Vegeta doing evil things continuously and being rewarded despite them.
And that’s EXACTLY and UNARGUABLY what he did here when he made the decision to allow Babbidi to possess him for such a stupid reason. And Goku has NOTHING to do with that
Zephyr wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 2:36 pm
Well, if the very act of Vegeta's possession was the thing that let Boo out, you'd have a point there. Like if
literally all it took was an M on his forehead to release him. But that's not what let Boo out.
I understand that point. But you’re missing the fact that I’m not (never was) talking about the aspect of –what went on- between Vegeta and Goku once he got possessed.
I’m pointing out specifically that the instant Vegeta decided to allow himself to be possessed, he prevented the threat’s elimination as it was supposed to happen within minutes. He sabotaged what was a done deal and he takes a 100% the blame for that.
what? A retroactive addition changes the context of a past event. Its literally in the definition. There's no way of getting around it even if you want to cover your ears and ignore it. In this case, the new information makes Gokus decision to fight go from a gamble gone wrong to an insanely irresponsible decision.
